As people says...

Started May 13, 2014 | Discussions
Dr Xavier
Dr Xavier Regular Member • Posts: 149
As people says...
1

...Sigma cameras are only for flowers. Never for low light:

Girls into the dusk.

Sports? Impossible:

Rainy day? No problem for surfers.

But, who believe what people says?

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Auesro Forum Member • Posts: 88
Re: As people says...

If Im not wrong, the surfer picture is in Munich, right? Thats quite a dark place under the trees. Good job.

You must be the only other person that I know who got a DP2M here in Munich! LOL

Dr Xavier
OP Dr Xavier Regular Member • Posts: 149
Re: As people says...

Auesro wrote:

If Im not wrong, the surfer picture is in Munich, right? Thats quite a dark place under the trees. Good job.

You must be the only other person that I know who got a DP2M here in Munich! LOL

yes, the surfers are in the Eisbach. The first photo is taken in front of the Opera, Max-Joseph-Platz.

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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 27,494
Re: As people says...

Who are those people you refer to?

There are lots of excellent low light images. And when the light is blue, as for the first one, it is much easier to get good result.

The "people say camera X cannot do sports" is very common in the forums here. It happens now and then in the Pentax SLR forum, mainly because "people" say that Nikon has much better AF. But - often the images shown are images where it is possible to predict the focus.

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Dr Xavier
OP Dr Xavier Regular Member • Posts: 149
Re: As people says...

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Who are those people you refer to?

I read this about Sigma cameras again and again.

One example:

"It can be frustrating to shoot anything that moves so it is NOT recommended as a point and shoot or if you are looking to take photos of your running kids or pets. It is not recommended for low light shooting indoor either... If your subject is still and you have enough light the DP2 Merrill can handle it."

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2012/08/29/the-sigma-dp2-merrill-review-gorgeous-image-quality-but-slow-and-squeaky/

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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 27,494
Re: As people says...

Dr Xavier wrote:

..

I do not own any DP2 Merrill. So, I have no experience regarding its focussing speed.

But, you think the DP2M has a good focussing speed, one that can focus on e.g. moving people easily? And that the reviews that say otherwise are wrong?

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Dr Xavier
OP Dr Xavier Regular Member • Posts: 149
Re: As people says...

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Dr Xavier wrote:

..

I do not own any DP2 Merrill. So, I have no experience regarding its focussing speed.

But, you think the DP2M has a good focussing speed, one that can focus on e.g. moving people easily? And that the reviews that say otherwise are wrong?

Reviews are not rock science. We can have some interpretations of what one says or not. But e.g. "If your subject is still and you have enough light the DP2 Merrill can handle it." is a bit of an exaggeration.

When I said "Sports", I didn't mean that a pro photographer should have a DP2M. My experience (5DII etc) is that you have to learn how the AF of the camera works. I don't lose too many photos with DP2M because the AF (same with other cameras). I prefer MF, it is a pity that DP2M has not a "snap focus" like the Ricoh GR.

The following photo is a "point and shoot". Note that I was too fast that I couldn't set the correct exposure (to me F2.8, 1/2500 is not the correct choice here).

And by the way: Thanks a lot for the x3f tool! I use it a lot to extract the jpegs.

Cycling in front of the Glyptothek.

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richard stone Senior Member • Posts: 2,594
Re: As people says...
1

Not long after the DP2M came out, as I recall someone used it for a wedding camera. It worked fine, of course.

The proper phrase here is the expression "conventional wisdom" by which one might mean some accepted level of bland misinformation that seems harmless.

From what I have seen over the years, including from your post, the main limiting factors in the use of the camera are user skill and determination. And imagination.

Photography is somewhat like poetry, in any event: the constraints (of the medium and the process) are part of what make the results interesting and worthwhile.

From a personal perspective, many years ago, while "testing" the low resolution setting of my SD10 in the late evening in an urban setting, I took some pictures with surprisingly excellent color and delicacy. All you have to do is push the button. It's not as if the camera resists.

Richard

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Dr Xavier
OP Dr Xavier Regular Member • Posts: 149
Re: As people says...

richard stone wrote:

Photography is somewhat like poetry, in any event: the constraints (of the medium and the process) are part of what make the results interesting and worthwhile.

This is a beautiful sentence!

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D Cox Forum Pro • Posts: 20,313
Re: As people says...
3

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Who are those people you refer to?

There are lots of excellent low light images. And when the light is blue, as for the first one, it is much easier to get good result.

Unfortunately the image quality of both these images is very poor.

The first also has severe halos along the edge of the roof, suggesting that some extreme PP was needed.

I think it is better not to go above ISO 200 in colour on the Merrill sensor.

The "people say camera X cannot do sports" is very common in the forums here. It happens now and then in the Pentax SLR forum, mainly because "people" say that Nikon has much better AF. But - often the images shown are images where it is possible to predict the focus.

Well, pictures like these two are better than nothing. But a more suitable camera would have given you much better results.

The Merrill cameras are the champs for resolution at low ISO settings (which can include low light if a tripod is used). The Sony A7 is the champ for high ISO settings (the A7s may be even better when it comes out).

Dr Xavier
OP Dr Xavier Regular Member • Posts: 149
Re: As people says...

D Cox wrote:

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Who are those people you refer to?

There are lots of excellent low light images. And when the light is blue, as for the first one, it is much easier to get good result.

Unfortunately the image quality of both these images is very poor.

The first also has severe halos along the edge of the roof, suggesting that some extreme PP was needed.

I think it is better not to go above ISO 200 in colour on the Merrill sensor.

Thanks for your critics!

I like critics because I learn something new

I hope nobody arrives to a general conclusion from a bad photographer (me).

In questions of quality, my minimum goes to the huge blurry and noisy photos of Brassai and HC Bresson. I don’t take photos of bricks, and I don’t care too much which camera have in my hands (Canon, Sigma,..).

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marcodadofoto
marcodadofoto Senior Member • Posts: 2,749
Re: As people says...

Hi Dr. Xavier,

it is Always positive to have an hentusiastic attitude, if You have to learn You'll surely do it fast.

The photos are pretty beautiful, but the image quality is not high, it's true,

You must know that, from time to time, someone comes out saying that Foveon sensors cannot shot decent images in low light or for moving subject, it's not right.

Also, from time to time, comes out someone saying that Foveon sensor are great in photographing every light condictions... that's not right too.

I speak as a landscapist, I only shoot landcapes and - believe me  - the Foveon sensor in this field is unbeatable in decent light condictions.

But, as it's almost unusable with high iso and it shows too much noise in longer exposures (and also closes too much the shadows leaving red blotches when trying to adjust the lights), I can say that the Foveon sensor has got great faults, and I hope that the QUATTRO will do something soon...

Hope it helps,

marco

PrebenR Veteran Member • Posts: 3,529
Re: As people says...
1

The funny thing is that in the not so old times they did sport with fully manual cameras

Today, that is impossible if you follow the opinion of the crowd

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PrebenR Veteran Member • Posts: 3,529
Re: As people says...

To be pedantic: All cameras are for low light, they do require varying length of time to get a good exposure though. That is why not all cameras do well in low light with fast shutter speed

Liked the images, but think the second would have been nice in B&W. Like your thinking too

This is a low light photo. I could barely see when I took it:

DP2 Merrill, ISO 100, f/5.0, 20s

link

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Dr Xavier
OP Dr Xavier Regular Member • Posts: 149
Re: As people says...

Thanks Marco!

In fact, I prefer (good) critics than someone saying "nice pic". You think about it, and then you try to improve next time

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D Cox Forum Pro • Posts: 20,313
Re: As people says...

PrebenR wrote:

The funny thing is that in the not so old times they did sport with fully manual cameras

It isn't "manual versus auto". You can shoot successfully in either mode.

Today, that is impossible if you follow the opinion of the crowd

Our expectations of image quality have risen in the past few years.

What was thought to be acceptable quality from a half-frame film camera would not be accepted from a sensor of the same size today.

I have digitised all my colour slides, mostly full-frame but many half-frame. Even the best Kodachromes are not equal to a Foveon Merrill in good light, and shots taken on fast colour film in dim light are as bad as the examples shown by the OP, or worse.

If you look at examples of street scenes at night shot on an A7, you will see that they are in a different league. They don't have the high resolution of a Foveon shot in good light, but the colours and gradation are very good indeed.

D Cox Forum Pro • Posts: 20,313
Re: As people says...

PrebenR wrote:

To be pedantic: All cameras are for low light, they do require varying length of time to get a good exposure though. That is why not all cameras do well in low light with fast shutter speed

Liked the images, but think the second would have been nice in B&W. Like your thinking too

This is a low light photo. I could barely see when I took it:

DP2 Merrill, ISO 100, f/5.0, 20s

link

Nice. Shot at ISO 100.

Dr Xavier
OP Dr Xavier Regular Member • Posts: 149
Re: As people says...
1

It was not my intention to compare my photos with other cameras (DP2M vs A7 or DP2M vs 645D). I didn’t put a title like “DP2M state of the art in low light”.

I just wanted to point out that some people understate the capability of one camera (e.g. DP2M). If someone takes you quality standards will never shoot above ISO 200 with DP2M and this is great! I don’t complain about that and I think is good that some people have these standards. Other low-rate photographers (me), don’t have this quality standards and can be happy going above ISO 200.

As sure you knows it, the halo from the first photo is due to over sharpening (with a high-pass filter). Anyway it has quite noise, you just have to look in the legs of the girl. The second photo was severely underexposed, then the color problem. I post the second photo because I like the composition (that’s me).

Again, I really appreciate your comments

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D Cox Forum Pro • Posts: 20,313
Re: As people says...

Dr Xavier wrote:

Is sure you knows it, the halo from the first photo is due to over sharpening (with a high-pass filter). Anyway it has quite noise, you just have to look in the legs of the girl. The second photo was severely underexposed, then the color problem. I post the second photo because I like the composition (that’s me).

The composition is fine. Try converting it to B&W. Avoid sharpening.

motionride Regular Member • Posts: 160
Re: As people says...

I never gave a bad thought about the low light qualities of the Sigma Cameras. There is always a workaround for the light issues and especially in todays world with lots and lots of post processing options like photoshop, dxo packs, gimp, aperture, lightroom etc. there is no need to be afraid of low light photography.

Use the limitations to your advantage! Try to use it as an artistic choice. The grain like noise that you can get from the Sigmas is amazing if you want to have your shot look like film.

I am not saying that the sigmas are good low light cameras compared to others, but take the comparison with other sensors/cameras out of the equation and you can still have fun with it.

Lets take this image here for example. This is how it came out of SPP.

Sigma SD1 Merrill, 85mm Samyang @ 1.4, 1/10s, +0,3EV, ISO 3200

Take 5 minutes in Photoshop and it can look like this here:

There is really not much to it. Use it like you use an older film scan and do your thing editing it in your preferred editing program.

I´ve done a whole (unplanned) shoot just for fun and I decided to use ISO 1000 - ISO 1600 and monochrome RAW. It was fun and entertaining and I have to say I am very pleased with the results.

Even when converting the monochrome RAWs to color, they yield very pleasant colors and I quite like the results.

Of course, comparing this to other cameras, it might not be the best result, but really, is it that bad?

Sigma SD1 Merrill, ISO 1000, -0.7 EV (~ ISO 1500), 85mm @ 1.4, 1/50s

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