auto ISO sucks with X cameras

Started May 3, 2014 | Discussions
Peter Jonas Veteran Member • Posts: 3,622
Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras

Christof21 wrote:

Peter Jonas wrote:

Christof21 wrote:

stevenjames wrote:

1/focal length is lame to me. Set whatever shutter speed works for you and move on. Its not that hard. With this little camera and standard lens I know that I can handhold no problem using 1/30 so that works fine for me. I've also got great pics hand holding at 1/15 with this and my larger DSLR so what's the beef?

I always thought that 1/focal length was B.S. I never used it with tele lenses thats for sure. Shot weddings with medium format camera and 150mm lens (large & heavy) using 1/60 all day (and night long).

To each his/her own

Steve

The rule 1/f makes really sense. It is function of the focal, if you double the focal then in average you will move move twice more. This is simple math and this approximation works really well.. No surprise that all camera makers use this rule (as far as I know, or a close one) !

Maybe the rule for you would be 2/f. It could depend also on the OIS. There are better implementations (Nikon would allow 2/f) but I lost this feature and I really miss it :-(.

When I am in aperture priority mode, the other settings should be AUTO (no need to set the minimum shutter speed). !

If Fuji builds a zoom 18-135, it will be the worst case to use auto-iso !!!

I remember going through the same debate on the Nikon forum a few years ago. Nikon apparently had been very late to follow Canon (and perhaps some of the others) in adopting the 1/f rule in their implementation of Auto ISO.

There were some people who did not want to hear about it, and there were others who thought they could not exist without it. I was just a neutral observer as I was not then (and am not now) a user of Auto ISO.

In the end when finally Nikon responded to user pressure, they implemented it in an optional way. That way both camps were able to be kept happy.

And I think that is what eventually Fuji will need to do.

No pressure at all so far... I'm afraid it is not going to change soon.

This is really important for me, even if some people prefer another system, I hope they can understand that for other people it really matters. Everybody may be satisfied as you said.

I do not know if Fuji will implement his via a FW update or not. I do hope they will.

With Fuji there is at least hope for something being included in one of their more or less regular FW updates for existing cameras.

With Nikon, people had to wait for a new model to be released, and it was tough luck for those with earlier cameras.

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Cheers,
Peter Jonas

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stevenjames
stevenjames Senior Member • Posts: 1,231
Re: Huge difference...

skeys wrote:

stevenjames wrote:

Set whatever shutter speed works for you and move on. Its not that hard.

Steve

some people who seem unable to understand why they cannot pick up a brand new camera and have it automagically perform their every desire with no intervention on their part.

I would have never imagined that one would spend over $1000 on a very capable camera and have no idea how to use it.

But really trial and error here, just test a few different shutter speeds and see if they are sharp or blurred. Or make it easy and just set it for 1/60 and forget it.

Auto iso on the X100s works just as I expect it to, same as my DSLRs. What really bothered me was on my previous X100 auto iso was limited to 3200?? never got that one.

Steve

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OP Christof21 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,515
Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras

Peter Jonas wrote:

Christof21 wrote:

Peter Jonas wrote:

Christof21 wrote:

stevenjames wrote:

1/focal length is lame to me. Set whatever shutter speed works for you and move on. Its not that hard. With this little camera and standard lens I know that I can handhold no problem using 1/30 so that works fine for me. I've also got great pics hand holding at 1/15 with this and my larger DSLR so what's the beef?

I always thought that 1/focal length was B.S. I never used it with tele lenses thats for sure. Shot weddings with medium format camera and 150mm lens (large & heavy) using 1/60 all day (and night long).

To each his/her own

Steve

The rule 1/f makes really sense. It is function of the focal, if you double the focal then in average you will move move twice more. This is simple math and this approximation works really well.. No surprise that all camera makers use this rule (as far as I know, or a close one) !

Maybe the rule for you would be 2/f. It could depend also on the OIS. There are better implementations (Nikon would allow 2/f) but I lost this feature and I really miss it :-(.

When I am in aperture priority mode, the other settings should be AUTO (no need to set the minimum shutter speed). !

If Fuji builds a zoom 18-135, it will be the worst case to use auto-iso !!!

I remember going through the same debate on the Nikon forum a few years ago. Nikon apparently had been very late to follow Canon (and perhaps some of the others) in adopting the 1/f rule in their implementation of Auto ISO.

There were some people who did not want to hear about it, and there were others who thought they could not exist without it. I was just a neutral observer as I was not then (and am not now) a user of Auto ISO.

In the end when finally Nikon responded to user pressure, they implemented it in an optional way. That way both camps were able to be kept happy.

And I think that is what eventually Fuji will need to do.

No pressure at all so far... I'm afraid it is not going to change soon.

This is really important for me, even if some people prefer another system, I hope they can understand that for other people it really matters. Everybody may be satisfied as you said.

I do not know if Fuji will implement his via a FW update or not. I do hope they will.

With Fuji there is at least hope for something being included in one of their more or less regular FW updates for existing cameras.

With Nikon, people had to wait for a new model to be released, and it was tough luck for those with earlier cameras.

You said that everybody adopted eventually the 1/f rule. The problem is that Fuji gave it up ! They went the opposite way without giving the option to keep the "normal"  way. This is a bit weird and frustrating. I have x-e1, it behaved "normally" when I bought it.

Thanks for this interesting information.

Peter Jonas Veteran Member • Posts: 3,622
Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras

Christof21 wrote:

Peter Jonas wrote:

Christof21 wrote:

Peter Jonas wrote:

Christof21 wrote:

stevenjames wrote:

1/focal length is lame to me. Set whatever shutter speed works for you and move on. Its not that hard. With this little camera and standard lens I know that I can handhold no problem using 1/30 so that works fine for me. I've also got great pics hand holding at 1/15 with this and my larger DSLR so what's the beef?

I always thought that 1/focal length was B.S. I never used it with tele lenses thats for sure. Shot weddings with medium format camera and 150mm lens (large & heavy) using 1/60 all day (and night long).

To each his/her own

Steve

The rule 1/f makes really sense. It is function of the focal, if you double the focal then in average you will move move twice more. This is simple math and this approximation works really well.. No surprise that all camera makers use this rule (as far as I know, or a close one) !

Maybe the rule for you would be 2/f. It could depend also on the OIS. There are better implementations (Nikon would allow 2/f) but I lost this feature and I really miss it :-(.

When I am in aperture priority mode, the other settings should be AUTO (no need to set the minimum shutter speed). !

If Fuji builds a zoom 18-135, it will be the worst case to use auto-iso !!!

I remember going through the same debate on the Nikon forum a few years ago. Nikon apparently had been very late to follow Canon (and perhaps some of the others) in adopting the 1/f rule in their implementation of Auto ISO.

There were some people who did not want to hear about it, and there were others who thought they could not exist without it. I was just a neutral observer as I was not then (and am not now) a user of Auto ISO.

In the end when finally Nikon responded to user pressure, they implemented it in an optional way. That way both camps were able to be kept happy.

And I think that is what eventually Fuji will need to do.

No pressure at all so far... I'm afraid it is not going to change soon.

This is really important for me, even if some people prefer another system, I hope they can understand that for other people it really matters. Everybody may be satisfied as you said.

I do not know if Fuji will implement his via a FW update or not. I do hope they will.

With Fuji there is at least hope for something being included in one of their more or less regular FW updates for existing cameras.

With Nikon, people had to wait for a new model to be released, and it was tough luck for those with earlier cameras.

You said that everybody adopted eventually the 1/f rule.

I didn't say this, but never mind.

The problem is that Fuji gave it up ! They went the opposite way without giving the option to keep the "normal" way. This is a bit weird and frustrating. I have x-e1, it behaved "normally" when I bought it.

I also find it a problem when anything in an existing product (most notably software or software controlled items) is changed, without the old way of working being left in at least optionally. I have had many a debate with the developer of the CAD software we used ti use about this.

There are very few things in life more upsetting then finding that the new, "more advanced" product can no longer do what the old one used to be able to, or does it in a more awkward way. I am also somewhat sympatethic to the attitude when people take this as a personal insult.

However, I have always had time for people who make an effort to fix their mistakes.

I think there is hope with Fuji.

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Cheers,
Peter Jonas

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Ed B
Ed B Veteran Member • Posts: 9,508
Re: Huge difference...
7

stevenjames wrote:

skeys wrote:

stevenjames wrote:

Set whatever shutter speed works for you and move on. Its not that hard.

Steve

some people who seem unable to understand why they cannot pick up a brand new camera and have it automagically perform their every desire with no intervention on their part.

I would have never imagined that one would spend over $1000 on a very capable camera and have no idea how to use it.

But really trial and error here, just test a few different shutter speeds and see if they are sharp or blurred. Or make it easy and just set it for 1/60 and forget it.

Auto iso on the X100s works just as I expect it to, same as my DSLRs. What really bothered me was on my previous X100 auto iso was limited to 3200?? never got that one.

Steve

This forum is full of people who came from a point & shoot camera or an entry level DSLR that they used on one of the auto modes.

Nothing wrong with that but when you get a bunch of people together that have very little experience you get all kinds of beginner type questions and opinions.

Things really get frustrating when these people blame almost all of their inexperience on a faulty camera.

A camera that doesn't work the way they want it to work just isn't a good camera (for them) and I agree with many of them, they may be happier with something else.

57LowRider Veteran Member • Posts: 3,997
Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras

In my humble experience, 1/f is ok for 35mm format but lower is ok for medium format and higher is necessary for APS (more like 1/2f).

Auto ISO parameters can be changed, manual is dead easy to drop into. The X-T1 needs a bit more forethought than previous X cameras owing to the ISO dial - different Auto ISO presets are not an option although I'm sure that they could be re-implemented as a programmable option for use when the dial is in the A position.

I have to say that I've never been caught out by the current methods and that an automatic 1/f would take me back to early X-E1 days (it used to have this), i.e. a bit of a pain because it's too slow.

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Peter Jonas Veteran Member • Posts: 3,622
Re: Huge difference...

Ed B wrote:

stevenjames wrote:

skeys wrote:

stevenjames wrote:

Set whatever shutter speed works for you and move on. Its not that hard.

Steve

some people who seem unable to understand why they cannot pick up a brand new camera and have it automagically perform their every desire with no intervention on their part.

I would have never imagined that one would spend over $1000 on a very capable camera and have no idea how to use it.

But really trial and error here, just test a few different shutter speeds and see if they are sharp or blurred. Or make it easy and just set it for 1/60 and forget it.

Auto iso on the X100s works just as I expect it to, same as my DSLRs. What really bothered me was on my previous X100 auto iso was limited to 3200?? never got that one.

Steve

This forum is full of people who came from a point & shoot camera or an entry level DSLR that they used on one of the auto modes.

There are also lots of people here who come from using more advanced DSLRs, and have lots of photographic experience.

Nothing wrong with that but when you get a bunch of people together that have very little experience you get all kinds of beginner type questions and opinions. Things really get frustrating when these people blame almost all of their inexperience on a faulty camera.

I don't think this is the case in this instance. Tho OP appears to know exactly what he wants and why he wants, and he also knows what he wants is available on most other adavnced cameras, on ones that are in the league the X-E1/2 wants to play.

A camera that doesn't work the way they want it to work just isn't a good camera (for them) and I agree with many of them, they may be happier with something else.

In my view what the OP wants is not without merit. I do not work the way he, does and it appears nor do you. Still, what he want has been done elsewhere, so why get frustrated?

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Cheers,
Peter Jonas

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Mike in Kansas
Mike in Kansas Contributing Member • Posts: 794
Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
1

I concur.  I would much rather set a minimum shutter speed versus some arbitrary 1/focal length rule.  With the OIS lenses you can typically get sharp shots at less than 1/focal length.

Similarly, when shooting action I usually want a minimum of 1/500th of a second in order to freeze action. This has nothing to do with focal length.  I for one am glad for the change and think it is a much better implementation.

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OP Christof21 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,515
Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras

57LowRider wrote:

In my humble experience, 1/f is ok for 35mm format but lower is ok for medium format and higher is necessary for APS (more like 1/2f).

Auto ISO parameters can be changed, manual is dead easy to drop into. The X-T1 needs a bit more forethought than previous X cameras owing to the ISO dial - different Auto ISO presets are not an option although I'm sure that they could be re-implemented as a programmable option for use when the dial is in the A position.

I have to say that I've never been caught out by the current methods and that an automatic 1/f would take me back to early X-E1 days (it used to have this), i.e. a bit of a pain because it's too slow.

The rule 1/f applies for 35mm format (f must be converted if the sensor has another format).

This is the way it works on most cameras who have this mode with non OIS lenses.

As far as I remember, it was the case for x-e1. It was fine for me.

Ed B
Ed B Veteran Member • Posts: 9,508
Re: Huge difference...

Peter Jonas wrote:

Ed B wrote:

stevenjames wrote:

skeys wrote:

stevenjames wrote:

Set whatever shutter speed works for you and move on. Its not that hard.

Steve

some people who seem unable to understand why they cannot pick up a brand new camera and have it automagically perform their every desire with no intervention on their part.

I would have never imagined that one would spend over $1000 on a very capable camera and have no idea how to use it.

But really trial and error here, just test a few different shutter speeds and see if they are sharp or blurred. Or make it easy and just set it for 1/60 and forget it.

Auto iso on the X100s works just as I expect it to, same as my DSLRs. What really bothered me was on my previous X100 auto iso was limited to 3200?? never got that one.

Steve

There are also lots of people here who come from using more advanced DSLRs, and have lots of photographic experience.

I agree but most of those people aren't complaining about basic camera operations.

OP Christof21 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,515
Re: Huge difference...

Ed B wrote:

stevenjames wrote:

skeys wrote:

stevenjames wrote:

Set whatever shutter speed works for you and move on. Its not that hard.

Steve

some people who seem unable to understand why they cannot pick up a brand new camera and have it automagically perform their every desire with no intervention on their part.

I would have never imagined that one would spend over $1000 on a very capable camera and have no idea how to use it.

But really trial and error here, just test a few different shutter speeds and see if they are sharp or blurred. Or make it easy and just set it for 1/60 and forget it.

Auto iso on the X100s works just as I expect it to, same as my DSLRs. What really bothered me was on my previous X100 auto iso was limited to 3200?? never got that one.

Steve

This forum is full of people who came from a point & shoot camera or an entry level DSLR that they used on one of the auto modes.

Nothing wrong with that but when you get a bunch of people together that have very little experience you get all kinds of beginner type questions and opinions.

Things really get frustrating when these people blame almost all of their inexperience on a faulty camera.

A camera that doesn't work the way they want it to work just isn't a good camera (for them) and I agree with many of them, they may be happier with something else.

Not really nice but no matter... If Nikon did the same "joke" with a FW update, I can't imagine the earthquake it would provoke among Nikon users (some of them who really appreciate this mode).

Peter Jonas Veteran Member • Posts: 3,622
Re: Huge difference...

Ed B wrote:

Peter Jonas wrote:

Ed B wrote:

stevenjames wrote:

skeys wrote:

stevenjames wrote:

Set whatever shutter speed works for you and move on. Its not that hard.

Steve

some people who seem unable to understand why they cannot pick up a brand new camera and have it automagically perform their every desire with no intervention on their part.

I would have never imagined that one would spend over $1000 on a very capable camera and have no idea how to use it.

But really trial and error here, just test a few different shutter speeds and see if they are sharp or blurred. Or make it easy and just set it for 1/60 and forget it.

Auto iso on the X100s works just as I expect it to, same as my DSLRs. What really bothered me was on my previous X100 auto iso was limited to 3200?? never got that one.

Steve

There are also lots of people here who come from using more advanced DSLRs, and have lots of photographic experience.

I agree but most of those people aren't complaining about basic camera operations.

Sometimes they do. And when they do it's mostly about something that they had before on their previous or other present cameras, and do not have now on thie Fuji X cameras. And belive me, there are plenty of those things.

This can mostly be useful to other Fuji users, as on one hand workarounds for the issues can be discussed, and on the other hand, if Fuji listens (and most of us hope they do), we'll all have better X cameras tomorrow.

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Peter Jonas

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mlmusto Senior Member • Posts: 2,100
whole point is that w/ min shutter speed fixed auto ISO floats

and with the sensor/DR these days that is usually not a bad thing.

jiminy, anyone here remember what Kodachrome 64 was like in terms of managing shutter speed vs. aperture.

as my ex said you'd cry if you were hung with a new rope!  dang, she works for a judge too!

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Steve W Veteran Member • Posts: 4,155
Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras

Sorry you feel so bad about Fuji's approach to auto ISO. I personally am fine with it. I often want to choose the min shutter speed faster than some "rule of thumb". Also I'm not familiar with Nikon's or the Olympus approach but Fuji's match my Canon and is better than Sony's where there is no way to set the min shutter speed and it doesn't follow any kind of 1/f rule.

Also just because the camera manufacturer thinks their IS or OSS is good for 3 stops doesn't mean I want their auto ISO algorithm to assume it So instead of an 1/f auto setting I would want a 2/f, 1/f, 1/2f type of setting.

I guess I'm glad I'm old enough to have learned to use a camera without it doing all the thinking. And I'm glad all those real professionals gave us great photos without all these features as well.

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skeys Veteran Member • Posts: 3,191
I wish I had written...

Steve W wrote:

I guess I'm glad I'm old enough to have learned to use a camera without it doing all the thinking. And I'm glad all those real professionals gave us great photos without all these features as well.

So thank you for that, Steve W.

Steve

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My comments and opinions are my own. I am neither a staff member, nor a paid employee, of DPReview.

slowhand73
slowhand73 Regular Member • Posts: 166
Re: I wish I had written...

Has anyone assigned one of the Fn buttons to the Auto Iso Settings menu ? Doing that, you can quickly change the minimum speed of the auto iso.

I like it working that way. Not having the possibility to force a minimum speed before was an issue IMHO.

It's too bad (Auto) Iso settings can't be stored in the custom settings. Same for Mount Adaptor settings (set Focal length).

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Jim in Hudson Senior Member • Posts: 2,256
Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras

Mike in Kansas wrote:

I concur. I would much rather set a minimum shutter speed versus some arbitrary 1/focal length rule. With the OIS lenses you can typically get sharp shots at less than 1/focal length.

Similarly, when shooting action I usually want a minimum of 1/500th of a second in order to freeze action. This has nothing to do with focal length. I for one am glad for the change and think it is a much better implementation.

Considering these are interchangeable lens cameras, you're going to have to change the minimum shutter speed every time you change the lens.  Of course, you're completely out of luck with these nice Fujifilm zoom lenses unless you think "one size fits all (focal lengths)' for minimum shutter speed.

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Jim in Hudson Senior Member • Posts: 2,256
Re: Huge difference...

Ed B wrote:

stevenjames wrote:

skeys wrote:

stevenjames wrote:

Set whatever shutter speed works for you and move on. Its not that hard.

Steve

some people who seem unable to understand why they cannot pick up a brand new camera and have it automagically perform their every desire with no intervention on their part.

I would have never imagined that one would spend over $1000 on a very capable camera and have no idea how to use it.

But really trial and error here, just test a few different shutter speeds and see if they are sharp or blurred. Or make it easy and just set it for 1/60 and forget it.

Auto iso on the X100s works just as I expect it to, same as my DSLRs. What really bothered me was on my previous X100 auto iso was limited to 3200?? never got that one.

Steve

This forum is full of people who came from a point & shoot camera or an entry level DSLR that they used on one of the auto modes.

Nothing wrong with that but when you get a bunch of people together that have very little experience you get all kinds of beginner type questions and opinions.

Things really get frustrating when these people blame almost all of their inexperience on a faulty camera.

A camera that doesn't work the way they want it to work just isn't a good camera (for them) and I agree with many of them, they may be happier with something else.

I really doubt that because neophytes coming from a P&S camera buy something better at Best Buy which, of course, doesn't carry Fujifilm X-system cameras.

As to the "beginner type questions", these are questions from people who might own a D4, K-5, etc.... not an iPhone.

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jl_smith Veteran Member • Posts: 3,890
I like min shutter better
2

IMO Fuji's autoISO rule of 1/f was just way too slow for moving/human subjects. I got burned a few times from too slow of a SS photographing people with the 35/1.4 and their AutoISO, so I never used it.

Maybe useful for still subjects, but then again the XT1 has an ISO dial, just turn it and take the shot -- it's not like the subject is going anywhere.

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Jim in Hudson Senior Member • Posts: 2,256
Re: I like min shutter better

jl_smith wrote:

IMO Fuji's autoISO rule of 1/f was just way too slow for moving/human subjects. I got burned a few times from too slow of a SS photographing people with the 35/1.4 and their AutoISO, so I never used it.

Maybe useful for still subjects, but then again the XT1 has an ISO dial, just turn it and take the shot -- it's not like the subject is going anywhere.

For well more than 30 years, photographers have set their cameras to S mode instead of P or A to deal with moving subjects.

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