Dissapointing Sony A77 II High ISO performance

Started May 2, 2014 | Discussions
sybersitizen Forum Pro • Posts: 12,417
Re: What is wrong with Sony A-mount !!
5

phototherapy wrote:

I wonder what score the A77m2 wil have, but from this comparison any one can see it, ore they are blind, even more, the real picture's show even more credibility for the A6000, I would like to have a A77m2 with the high ISO performance of the A6000, but that's not going to hapen with this camera.

No, it will not happen because of the SLT mirror. Deal with it.

even the A58 have better high ISO Jpeg's than the old A77 and now the A77m2 ........ !!!!

These comparisons show the A77 about 1/3 stop behind the mirrorless A3000 and about 2/3 stop behind the mirrorless A6000. The SLT mirror (old version or new version) takes about 1/2 stop for itself.

In terms of realistic expectations, you are complaining about trifles here. Trifles.

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,992
Re: Where is the 20% improvemt ??
2

Photostyle wrote:

Is that so, why does Sony clame it than ?

RAW samples show that the A77 suffered from magenta clipping quite early on the sensitivity curve. And so it's possible that Sony addressed this with their latest sensor. Which would constitute a high ISO improvement over the A77 imo.

Based on what I've read, it appears as though many people are upset that the A77 II isn't revolutionary. Though I think it's worth saying that a Mark II release most often comes as a refinement of an existing product rather than that of a new product altogether.

PS. I'm thinking the translucent mirror tech. is coming to an end. Not that I have issues with it(I've grown quite fond of the A99 myself), though I really don't see any good reason for Sony to continue to develop this tech. given the strides made with mirrorless these past few. - my two cents.

TrojMacReady
TrojMacReady Veteran Member • Posts: 8,729
Huh?
4

Photostyle wrote:

Well again a serious disapointment I think, 20%improvemt = marketing strategy from Sony, but real samples tell us other thing's, no ISO improvement at all IMO,

You realize 20% is less than a third of a stop to begin with? How can you say anything meaningful about the existence of 20% improvement in sensor sensitivity or not, based on pre production OOC jpegs with NR turned off compared to... what exactly?

The death of APS-C A mount? Have you announced it on your SAR website yet?

Miike Dougherty
Miike Dougherty Contributing Member • Posts: 764
Re: Dissapointing Sony A77 II High ISO performance
1

dr Ate wrote:

Hello

Please have a look here. High iso of new Sony A77 II looks like from version1. Sony, why ?

http://www.optyczne.pl/6962-news-_Sony_SLT-A77_II_-_przyk%C5%82adowe_zdj%C4%99cia.html

DXO ranks the A77 satisfactory high ISO at 1,200.  I'm hoping the A77 II with gap-less pixels can achieve 1,600.  The Nikon D800 is only 2,800 ISO and it's a $3,000 body.  The really good bodies cost upwards of $6,000.

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Tone Row Regular Member • Posts: 334
Re: Dissapointing Sony A77 II High ISO performance
1

911Tyson1 wrote:

Hello

Please have a look here. High iso of new Sony A77 II looks like from version1. Sony, why ?

http://www.optyczne.pl/6962-news-_Sony_SLT-A77_II_-_przyk%C5%82adowe_zdj%C4%99cia.html

Agree. I was expecting something a bit more revolutionary.

Perhaps as a baseline you can tell us the last APS-C DSLR(T) that you considered to be "revolutionary" so that we know what the A77 II was supposed to live up to in your eyes.

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sybersitizen Forum Pro • Posts: 12,417
Re: Dissapointing Sony A77 II High ISO performance

Miike Dougherty wrote:

DXO ranks the A77 satisfactory high ISO at 1,200.

Would you mind pointing out where the ISO 1200 figure is published?

I'm hoping the A77 II with gap-less pixels can achieve 1,600.

Regardless of the specific A77 figure, a 1/3 stop improvement just might be doable.

Seeky Senior Member • Posts: 1,064
Re: Dissapointing Sony A77 II High ISO performance
3

These images are worthless to determine low light high ISO performance because the scenes are not low light at all. The shutter speeds are way too high for that.

And be aware that NR settings greatly influence image quality, but you can control it a bit in camera.

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phaedin
phaedin Senior Member • Posts: 1,634
Re: Dissapointing Sony A77 II High ISO performance

Without something to compare it to, you have no frame of reference to make a judgement.

also is that the final JPEG engine that will be in the production models? IIRC the A77 pre-production model JPEG engine was worst that the one actually released.

Also it may take some time for Adobe and DXO mark etc to tweak their RAW processors to get a optimised RAW output - so dont rush to any conclusions when the first RAW files get released

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TrojMacReady
TrojMacReady Veteran Member • Posts: 8,729
Re: Dissapointing Sony A77 II High ISO performance

sybersitizen wrote:

Miike Dougherty wrote:

DXO ranks the A77 satisfactory high ISO at 1,200.

Would you mind pointing out where the ISO 1200 figure is published?

I'm hoping the A77 II with gap-less pixels can achieve 1,600.

Regardless of the specific A77 figure, any 2/3 stop improvement would be hard to achieve.

That would be about 0.4 EV improvement, but I can't find the ISO 1200 figure either.

phaedin
phaedin Senior Member • Posts: 1,634
Re: Where is the 20% improvemt ??

Almazar80 wrote:

It would behoove you (and me as well) to wait for the production model to be properly reviewed. You can't judge anything after reading a single article that is doing a quick look at a preproduction sample. It's tempting to accumulate information now, but it's not the speed that the data gets to you. It's the quality of the data that really matters.

Please stop with your common sense and logical thinking

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sybersitizen Forum Pro • Posts: 12,417
Re: Dissapointing Sony A77 II High ISO performance

TrojMacReady wrote:

sybersitizen wrote:

Miike Dougherty wrote:

DXO ranks the A77 satisfactory high ISO at 1,200.

Would you mind pointing out where the ISO 1200 figure is published?

I'm hoping the A77 II with gap-less pixels can achieve 1,600.

Regardless of the specific A77 figure, any 2/3 stop improvement would be hard to achieve.

That would be about 0.4 EV improvement, but I can't find the ISO 1200 figure either.

Right... I corrected my original post just now, saying a 1/3 stop improvement might be doable... but it would still be a barely observable difference.

The only DxO figure I see for the A77 is ISO 801.

dr jim Veteran Member • Posts: 6,460
Re: Looks good to me.

You might want to add to that statement, "for me" . That's a little like a cabinet maker telling a logger that his dove tail saw is more than acceptable.  Kinda depends on what you're doing with it doesn't it?

Of course final judgement can't happen until the final release, but as a birder who tried the A77 (and loved the camera) several times and was always let down by the noise in the sky at iso 400, it was my hope that after, what has it been, 4 years, maybe we could expect a clean iso 400 and useable iso 800. Im talking about for me and my birding.  I'm not speaking for anybody else, just me.  To me, these images don't look promising, and honestly, though we go through this "wait for the production version" every time, I've never seen any improvement between the pre production models that Sony hands out to reviewers and the final version. I'll wait with the rest of you, because believe me I do not want to switch camps. On paper, (except for the removal of the GPS feature.  Sony had to take off at least one nice feature that didn't cost them anything or it wouldn't be Sony) the A77 II is the perfect camera.  I'm not optomistic,

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Jim

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sybersitizen Forum Pro • Posts: 12,417
It only feels like a longer wait
1

dr jim wrote:

... it was my hope that after, what has it been, 4 years...

About 2 1/2 years. Give the thing a couple more months before passing judgement.

K E Hoffman
K E Hoffman Veteran Member • Posts: 5,103
Wow! Really?
2

Photostyle wrote:

Well again a serious disapointment I think, 20%improvemt = marketing strategy from Sony, but real samples tell us other thing's, no ISO improvement at all IMO, incremental update Yes, but not for High ISO at all. this is probably the end of APS-C A-mount camera's. OK the fan boy's will again just as they did for the A77 minimize this setback, come on people, this is no longer acceptable, the A6000 deliver the same IQ at ISO6400 as the A77 II at ISO1600 !!!! What is Sony doing here again !!!!!!

From some random shots taking with a pre-release camera. Where we don't have the settings you are able to confirm that there is not 1/3 stop improvement In sensor output?

You are a prodigy.. DXO, IR DPR etc do special testing with studios and / or software to come to this level of statement.. but you can in your mind see it from a random shot.  A real asset to the photography community..

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K.E.H. >> Shooting between raindrops in WA<<
Don't Panic!.. these are just opinions... go take some pictures..

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911Tyson1 Regular Member • Posts: 274
OK

Tone Row wrote:

911Tyson1 wrote:

Hello

Please have a look here. High iso of new Sony A77 II looks like from version1. Sony, why ?

http://www.optyczne.pl/6962-news-_Sony_SLT-A77_II_-_przyk%C5%82adowe_zdj%C4%99cia.html

Agree. I was expecting something a bit more revolutionary.

Perhaps as a baseline you can tell us the last APS-C DSLR(T) that you considered to be "revolutionary" so that we know what the A77 II was supposed to live up to in your eyes.

At first I was being a bit sarcastic but now you got me thinking. All the rumors from the past year or so from SAR and here about the A77II having a Minolta like body, mirror lock up feature, being mirrorless and so on is nothing but a bunch of $#iT. Boy I bet that SAR guy is feeling like a douchebag right now. Always being fed wrong information by a bunch of misled $#itheads. The only time he seems to get it right is a day or two before the announcement when everyone already knows about it. Jokes are on you SAR haha. But I know, rumors are rumors and should always be taken with a grain of salt. Just messing with you SAR. Keep up the good work. It's better then nothing like you get from Canon or Nikon rumors.

Rumors set aside. The questions I would be asking right now:

Where is the global shutter you see on the RX10?

Where is the XAVC S format that you see on a $600 rx100m3?

Where is 4K?

Clearly these are all video feature that I'm sure some of you could care less about. But for me having great video capabilities was what sold me on the A77. Turned out to be a big disappointment. They could have made up for it in this upgrade but missed that boat. I've seen a couple of promo vids made by Sony of the A77II and they look just as bad as the original. After all video was one of the big selling points of the camera. The translucent mirror, continues auto focus in stills and video blablabla.

For still shooters, final image quality is yet to be determined. From the looks of it at this point don't expect much of an improvement if any at all. I would expect to see very noisy RAW files and mushy JPEGs like the previous model.

The questions I would be asking:

Where is tethering? Pros don't need 79 focus points they need tethering.

Where is the focus assist lamp? Who knows maybe you don't need it anymore. Doubt that.

No new lens announcements with the new camera?

Not even a flash? This is a huge drawback for Sony. They have the worst flash system on the DSLR market. When you get into serious photography you will understand how important that is. No standard wireless TTL triggers now that you have a new but old hot shoe. Now you have to fondle around with adapters on your camera and flashes.

It doesn't have to be revolutionary but I was expecting at least a couple of features listed above. Overall I'm a bit disappointed with the upgrade. Not because I was hoping for an upgrade. I've moved on to a FF and have no interest in going back to APS-C. But mostly because lately Sony has been coming out with some very innovative products and the A77II makes me question the future of A-mount.

ck3
ck3 Senior Member • Posts: 2,925
Re: Tssk tssk Andrea.

Hmm...not convinced

mick232 Contributing Member • Posts: 964
Re: Dissapointing Sony A77 II High ISO performance

VirtualMirage wrote:

The shots you see are JPEG only on pre-production cameras.

EXIF says firmware is on version 1.00 - and the A77M2 is supposed to ship in less than 4 weeks so there is no time for changes. This is most likely the firmware the A77M2 will ship with.

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K E Hoffman
K E Hoffman Veteran Member • Posts: 5,103
Re: What is wrong with Sony A-mount !!

phototherapy wrote:

I wonder what score the A77m2 wil have, but from this comparison any one can see it, ore they are blind, even more, the real picture's show even more credibility for the A6000, I would like to have a A77m2 with the high ISO performance of the A6000, but that's not going to hapen with this camera. even the A58 have better high ISO Jpeg's than the old A77 and now the A77m2 ........ !!!!

What is interesting is that you have the tool to do some reasonable analysis and ignore it.

The A77 and NEX 7 came out the same year both 24 MP the ISO rating at DXO was 1/4 better for the NEX7.. Now the A6000/A5000 have come out and are the best rated sensors are almost a full 2/3 stop better than the A77.

Odds are the real difference will be about 1/2 stop at best IE about 1150 ISO if the relationship between the NEX and A77 sensors hold with the sensors released this year.

In reality for APC... most of the 1:1 ISO peeping issues fall out in the actual use of the photos..

What is odd is that a few quick test shots and people are in a panic over what?.. that the A77 may only have the ISO rating of a Nikon 24 MP APC sensor.

It seems to me that we have lots of people who don't understand FF vs APC and noise and have seen all the A7 releases and somehow assumed the 24 MP APC would end up with the same ISO as the 24 MP FF.. And I wish Coffee beans were $2 a lb.. isn't going to happen so I don't expect it.

This is what DXO says from a more objective POV:

"So the signs are relatively encouraging, although sensor scores from the Sony a6000 haven’t progressed significantly from the original Sony a77. Achieving a DxOMark Sensor Score of 78, the Sony a77 ranked 51 for all sensors and 8 for APS-C cameras. In fact with Color Depth and Dynamic Range results between the Sony a6000 and Sony a77 almost identical, it’s only the improved ISO sensitivity on the Sony a6000 that gives it the edge over the a77. You can read our test results and sensor scores for the Sony a77 here and Sony a6000 here. "

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K.E.H. >> Shooting between raindrops in WA<<
Don't Panic!.. these are just opinions... go take some pictures..

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 41,157
Re: OK
1

911Tyson1 wrote:

Where is tethering? Pros don't need 79 focus points they need tethering.

Pro nature, wedding and sports photographers don't need tethering. Pro studio photographers do. Next time you throw the term pro around be more specific. You are right though that tethering is something that should be included even if it's something I will never use.

Where is the focus assist lamp? Who knows maybe you don't need it anymore. Doubt that.

Really unimportant. "Pros" don't use the built in flash. All in all it's not that big a deal.

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Tom
Look at the picture, not the pixels
------------
Miss use of the ability to do 100% pixel peeping is the bane of digital photography because it causes people to fret over inconsequential issues.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/63683676@N07/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

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TrojMacReady
TrojMacReady Veteran Member • Posts: 8,729
You might have missed the A77 release....
3

mick232 wrote:

VirtualMirage wrote:

The shots you see are JPEG only on pre-production cameras.

EXIF says firmware is on version 1.00 - and the A77M2 is supposed to ship in less than 4 weeks so there is no time for changes. This is most likely the firmware the A77M2 will ship with.

The A77 went from sub 1.00 (0.5x or so) to v1.00 preproduction, to v1.02 first release in some Asian countries, to v1.03 official worldwide release in just a few weeks. Hard to say whether this is the official production firmware that will be in the shops.

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