Stick with Nikon or Go for the 5DIII ?

Started Apr 25, 2014 | Discussions
olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,606
Re: Stick with Nikon or Go for the 5DIII ?

surrephoto wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

lefantian wrote:

Hello everyone~ I'm a wedding and people (mainly newborn) photographer, and I also like to shoot landscape and daily life of family. Currently I'm using the Nikon D3s with several lenses. However, one thing I find struggling is the skintone out of the Nikon D3s always requires some labor (I mainly shoot Asian people, and the customers here do like kind of “pink and a little magenta” skintones rather than yellowish): maybe due to the AWB, and maybe also due to the camera's own color rendering.

I’m considering adding new cameras to my workflow, and the choices are:

A). Stick with Nikon and buy a D800 (with D3s as backup);

B). Switch to Canon and go for the 5DIII (maybe with 6D as a backup camera).

And once the decision is made, I’ll stick with the chosen brand for many years.

My concerns are:

1). IS there a big difference between the D800 and 5DIII in skintone rendering? Do Canon users always need to intensively adjust color for a better skintone?

2). IS the AF system of the 5DIII fast, accurate and reliable enough?

The burst shoot speed is not an issue as far as I can see. So please don’t tell me to go for the D4s/1DX as my current budget is limited to the D800/5DIII level… Thanks!

If your biggest issue is color then changing the camera won't solve the problem. Of course, a more modern camera, like the D800, has better Auto WB, but even in that you might need to adjust the color balance. So, my advice is don't buy anything, adjust the WB to your (or your customers) taste and be happy.

Anyway, for the sake of skin tones and AWB, I would not jump ship, maybe would buy the D800 instead. Just too much costs involved in jumping ship, because it is not just the body that is changed, but the whole system. Surely, even buying a D4 would be cheaper than buying into a Canon system, because if you buy the D4 you only need to buy the body, and even if you would sell all you have today, surly the loss would be huige. Never the less, if you decide to buy a new camera because you want AWB then in my opinion the D800 is best. Not because I have Canon experience or because I think Canon is technically worst, but because the D800 is good enough, it has excellent AWB and you are already familiar with the Nikon, so it would only take a few minutes to start, basically no learning curve and definitely no other gear is necessary to buy with it.

The D800 would be a huge step forward for you in any way and would probably give you better images. It has two different AWB modes, and you can tune each one of them to your taste.

I don't agree with this advice at all.

Which part is it you don't agree with?

Skintones have absolutely nothing to do with WB values. Unless of course your WB is completely off, and so your skintones get affected.

Skin tones and colors are GREATLY affected by WB, if your WB is incorrect the tones and the colors will be wrong.

We need to assume that whatever cameras you are comparing are delivering the correct WB value if you are using AWB.

That is a totally wrong assumption. AWB is just a guesstimate, not an accurate measurement. Different cameras result in different images if you shoot the same scene with them using AWB, unless if the scene is lit up by sunlight or flash, and even so there can be quite a lot of differences.

And btw, canon's AWB isn't perfect either. Try it in warm lighting.

No camera is perfect in AWB, but one camera can deliver more pleasing results than another, assuming it is used with the factory defaults. Once you start tuning your AWB you may get different results even between the same models.

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,606
Re: Stick with Nikon or Go for the 5DIII ?
1

MPA1 wrote:

benjaminblack wrote:

This is such an odd post.

You can go into your menu and adjust the white balance, that's one way. I do Amber +1 personally.

After the fact, skin tones can be easily adjusted in LR, buy some color profiles or presets if you don't want to do it manually. They can also be easily adjusted in Photoshop if you don't use lightroom.

The D3s is known for shooting wonderful skin tones... But even if that's not the case with Asian skin as you say, quick adjustments on camera, or in post-production will solve your problems.

Switching to the 5D3, and to Canon, would be a ludicrous option to improve skin tones, insanely expensive - which makes me wonder are you trolling??? Ha!

I wondered the same thing. No one doing paid professional work should be seeking answers to questions like this...

...well, anyone can be a pro, claim to be a pro, or sell images. Being a professional photographer really only means one thing, he/she is selling images and make a living out of it. It says nothing about education, knowledge, skill or anything else. You can start up a business and claim to be a professional, without doing anything else than order the equipment and call yourself a photographer. If you manage to sell then it is good, if not, then you will be out of business soon. None of that is connected to any knowledge or photography education.

Of course, I agree with you, I'd expect professional photographers to have deeper knowledge than I have, but that's very far from reality today. Never the less, what I'd expect mostly from a professional photographer is that he/she has the "eye" and can see what amateurs can't, but even here, that's not always the case.

Basically, I think that this is a sad development, which is why I agree with your comment, but this is sadly typical of our times.

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,606
Re: Stick with Nikon or Go for the 5DIII ?
1

Peter M J wrote:

I have a Canon 6D, a Nikon D800 and a Nikon 700D.
I got the Canon because I was unhappy with the Nikopn skin tones and spent hours trying to get decent skintones out of the nef files, The canon produces great colours and very acceptable skin tones with very little effort.As I said in a previous post about this and for which I was given alot of abuse by fan boys cameras of this quality should be able to give very acceptable results quickly and easily. If you want to mess about for hours thats fine and your choice but it shouldnot be an essential requirement.

You are kidding. Right?

I have tried showing the results to friends and almost without exceptions they have gone for the colours from the Canon

I bet you that if I had your 6D and would take images of the same individuals with my D800 and your 6D you would not be able to pick which camera was used for which image, assuming I remove the EXIF and re-size them all the same size.

Donald Chin
Donald Chin Veteran Member • Posts: 5,757
It doesn't really matter which brand or sensor you use.
1

Perhaps these are the exception.

This one too!

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,606
I disagree...
2

Donald Chin wrote:

This one too!

...anything works except Sigma. Just look at those skin colors above and that lens distortion...

Manfred Bachmann Senior Member • Posts: 1,060
Re: Stick with Nikon or Go for the 5DIII ?

Peter M J wrote:

I have a Canon 6D, a Nikon D800 and a Nikon 700D.
I got the Canon because I was unhappy with the Nikopn skin tones and spent hours trying to get decent skintones out of the nef files, The canon produces great colours and very acceptable skin tones with very little effort.As I said in a previous post about this and for which I was given alot of abuse by fan boys cameras of this quality should be able to give very acceptable results quickly and easily. If you want to mess about for hours thats fine and your choice but it shouldnot be an essential requirement.

I have tried showing the results to friends and almost without exceptions they have gone for the colours from the Canon

its not the camera which renders skintones ugly, some people simply have ugly skintones!

i shoot since 10 years with nikon, because the skintones and i have no need for magenta colorshift which canon cameras tends to have!

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caspianm Senior Member • Posts: 2,410
Re: Stick with Nikon or Go for the 5DIII ?
1

The skintone of Canon is a hoax by Canon worshipers.

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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,606
Re: Stick with Nikon or Go for the 5DIII ?
1

caspianm wrote:

The skintone of Canon is a hoax by Canon worshipers.

Try that on the Olympus forum... I mean, they are convinced that there is something called "Olympus colors" and that Olympus is the best for skin and sky tones.

I think that kind of hoax exists all over the place, probably also here.

caspianm Senior Member • Posts: 2,410
Re: You need to ask an asian, or someone who has used Canon.

surrephoto wrote:

The above replies are somewhat ridiculous and IMHO do not seem to respect OP's intent and question.

Let's look at the facts. Nikon is not popular in Asia. I live in Singapore. Most Nikon users accept the fact that Canon gives better skintones out of the box. This does not matter whether you shoot RAW or JPEG. Up north in Malaysia, it is a mix bag, but in Thailand & Vietnam, Canon is the market leader. Go ask them the reason... it is always the skintones. I tell you for a fact that Vietnam & Thailand are very good markets to study since majority of photographers there are involved in portraiture of beautiful girls. Not just models, we are talking about cultures where an amateur photographer can turn a girl on the street into a star in a matter of months. Another good reason; both countries feature women with a wide range of skintones. From indian & malay type dark to paler than japanese type of white. Try talking to the taiwanese, they are very passionate about pretty girls & skintone as well.

Color checker and other chart solutions do not solve a fundamental problem, they give you accurate skintones. What about mixed lighting? Are you sure you want to spend more time correct color in RAW and less time shooting?

Asians like to be deluded with nicer skintone. That often means less yellow, fairer & a little red. Canon discovered the secret sauce to making both asian & caucasian skin look good.

To live with this, I developed my own DNG profiles based on PSKiss cross camera profiles over the last few years.

Please post two identical portraits take with Canon & Nikon. You are Mr. know it all. You seem to know all the Nikon weaknesses & nastyness from all the posts you put up!

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benjaminblack
benjaminblack Contributing Member • Posts: 589
Re: Stick with Nikon or Go for the 5DIII ?

I'm pretty sure this entire thread is a joke and a lot of the responses are just making fun of Asians...

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Giovanni_1968
Giovanni_1968 Senior Member • Posts: 2,495
Re: Stick with Nikon or Go for the 5DIII ?

Let me tell, jokes apart and no pun intended, the WB of the D800 is not even a mile away from that of my 2007 Fuji S5Pro, the first shots with the D800 were fully disappointing (and still are WB wise), I did look around and customized the WB to remove the green/yellow cast from skin tones and got to a decent compromise but still nothing which can compare to the S5, true is that Fuji has a tendency to pump up reds and magentas giving images a saturated look (at least with the SCCD of the S5, dunno about the X-Trans) but they looked much more pleasant and real than Nikons, true is that I shoot at western skin toned people (as if that matters...) but I keep thinking that WB has to do with skin rendition and that if you shoot raw any camera would do fine, if you want a hassle free jpg you should either tune your WB be it Nikon or Canon (where in Nikon I find newer lenses to be colder against older D ones being warmer and more pleasant skin tone wise) or get a Fuji so it is a no question, keep your lenses and invest in a Nikon FF body and shoot raw and post process and you will save the investment, if you wanna change flag sell it all and jump into Canon word but I will second the suggestion to rent and X-Trans camera to test Fuji colors.

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FujiS5 Nikon D800 Panasonic L1 shooter

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Kpatel55 Regular Member • Posts: 188
Re: Stick with Nikon or Go for the 5DIII ?

I second for X-rite color checker and monitor calibration software.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/651253-REG/X_Rite_MSCCPP_ColorChecker_Passport.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/867211-REG/X_Rite_CMUNDISCCPP_X_Rite_Colormunki_Display.html

When you go for new system you waste your money for lenses and full system.

-KP

T O Shooter Veteran Member • Posts: 8,781
Re: Stick with Nikon or Go for the 5DIII ?
1

lefantian wrote:

Hello everyone~ I'm a wedding and people (mainly newborn) photographer, and I also like to shoot landscape and daily life of family. Currently I'm using the Nikon D3s with several lenses. However, one thing I find struggling is the skintone out of the Nikon D3s always requires some labor (I mainly shoot Asian people, and the customers here do like kind of “pink and a little magenta” skintones rather than yellowish): maybe due to the AWB, and maybe also due to the camera's own color rendering.

I’m considering adding new cameras to my workflow, and the choices are:

A). Stick with Nikon and buy a D800 (with D3s as backup);

B). Switch to Canon and go for the 5DIII (maybe with 6D as a backup camera).

And once the decision is made, I’ll stick with the chosen brand for many years.

My concerns are:

1). IS there a big difference between the D800 and 5DIII in skintone rendering? Do Canon users always need to intensively adjust color for a better skintone?

2). IS the AF system of the 5DIII fast, accurate and reliable enough?

The burst shoot speed is not an issue as far as I can see. So please don’t tell me to go for the D4s/1DX as my current budget is limited to the D800/5DIII level… Thanks!

What is your opinion of the rendering of the skintones in this post?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53555583

Not that I'm suggesting the you buy a Fuji S5 Pro, furthest from it, but I bought one a year or so ago from an Asian who had a large circle of Africian American and Asian friends and he said that gave the best skintones for that group. I sold it eventually to a school portrait photography company. The owner said he has tried numerous other brands but he uses the Fuji S5 Pros exclusively and puts hundreds of thousands of shots on them, again giving the best skintones across a huge nationality base. While not much benefit to you, it tends to dispel the line of thought that there is no difference in skintone rendering from camera brand to camera brand.  No concern to me as I rarely photograph people, but obviously it is to you and your situation.

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Mako2011
Mako2011 Forum Pro • Posts: 24,981
which?
1

There is often a big difference between accurate skin-tones vs preferred/pleasing skin tones. Manufactures will often tweak renderings to be more pl;easing to a certain market. Here you see the difference. Uncorrected OOC result (first row) and corrected images (second row)

Top row OOC bottom ROW corected.

4 different cameras represented: HP, Nikon , Canon, and Nokia cellphone (kept same by column).

Point being, do you want accurate skin-tones or preferred skin tones? Answering that can play into ones decision.

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caspianm Senior Member • Posts: 2,410
Re: Stick with Nikon or Go for the 5DIII ?

Nice series but body skin tone has a green cast all over. Facial make up don't count.

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Nexu1 Senior Member • Posts: 2,746
Re: Stick with Nikon or Go for the 5DIII ?

surrephoto wrote:

I don't agree with this advice at all. Skintones have absolutely nothing to do with WB values. Unless of course your WB is completely off, and so your skintones get affected. We need to assume that whatever cameras you are comparing are delivering the correct WB value if you are using AWB. And btw, canon's AWB isn't perfect either. Try it in warm lighting.

White balance temperature and tint dramatically influence skin tones.  Dramatically.  I use lightroom, when my skin tones are off the first thing I do is spot check the skin somewhere and compare the R-G-B values looking for what's considered "good" ratios and move temp & tint sliders to get it close.  Rarely do I need to dive much deeper and start tweaking individual colors (which is usually more hassle than it's worth).

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michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 12,314
Re: make your own profile with www.qpcard.com

Mikael Risedal wrote:

simple to generate own profiles , fastest and best way to get skin tones as you like them

www.qpcard.com

I use QPCard in addition to Color Checker and recommend it as well.  I didn't mention QPCard in my first response since I'm not sure if it works with Lightroom.  If it does then great.  I suppose it should since it works with ACR.  I've just never tried it.

QP Card is a bit faster to create a profile.  One thing I dislike about QPCard is that they limit you to 15 characters in the name of the profile you create.  This is just silly.

They have also been teasing us for quite a long time now that there will be QP Calibration support for Color Checker targets (CC24).  I would rate the QPCard construction itself as flimsy compared with the X-Rite Color Checker Passport.  Not bad, but nowhere near Color Checker.  The Color Checker is easier to take a photo of in more situations if you are shooting alone than the QPCard due to the built in adjustable kickstand of the Color Checker.

But, profiles from the QPCard are really good.  And at the end of the day that's the bottom line, right?

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surrephoto Regular Member • Posts: 286
Re: Stick with Nikon or Go for the 5DIII ?

Nexu1 wrote:

surrephoto wrote:

I don't agree with this advice at all. Skintones have absolutely nothing to do with WB values. Unless of course your WB is completely off, and so your skintones get affected. We need to assume that whatever cameras you are comparing are delivering the correct WB value if you are using AWB. And btw, canon's AWB isn't perfect either. Try it in warm lighting.

White balance temperature and tint dramatically influence skin tones. Dramatically. I use lightroom, when my skin tones are off the first thing I do is spot check the skin somewhere and compare the R-G-B values looking for what's considered "good" ratios and move temp & tint sliders to get it close. Rarely do I need to dive much deeper and start tweaking individual colors (which is usually more hassle than it's worth).

There is a fairly large WB range that will deliver decent skintones. This is the reason why some people prefer warmer images & vice versa. However, if one feels that skintone is too yellow/greenish for nikon, moving the tint slider to magenta might fix the skintone but cause other parts of the image to develop a cast.

surrephoto Regular Member • Posts: 286
Re: which?
4

Mako2011 wrote:

There is often a big difference between accurate skin-tones vs preferred/pleasing skin tones. Manufactures will often tweak renderings to be more pl;easing to a certain market. Here you see the difference. Uncorrected OOC result (first row) and corrected images (second row)

Top row OOC bottom ROW corected.

4 different cameras represented: HP, Nikon , Canon, and Nokia cellphone (kept same by column).

Point being, do you want accurate skin-tones or preferred skin tones? Answering that can play into ones decision.

I agree with you. Indeed it is a matter of accurate & preferred.

Try selling your clients accurate skintones!

surrephoto Regular Member • Posts: 286
Re: You need to ask an asian, or someone who has used Canon. color profiles...

ImageAmateur wrote:

surrephoto wrote:

ImageAmateur wrote:

surrephoto wrote:

.......

To live with this, I developed my own DNG profiles based on PSKiss cross camera profiles over the last few years.

Surely you just supported what the others are saying??? Not being a smartxx but...

The PSKiss cross camera profiles are far from perfect. I had to work on them to get them to work to my taste. These profiles do not aim to provide accurate color, but rather, colors which emulate other brands. What the others are suggesting is to use a color chart. That does not solve the problem, it just makes everything more clinical.

Understood, the thing is, the calibration is just step one. Step 2 is adjusting the color profiles so that output is 'to your taste' where necessary.

As you have done.

Cannot do 2 easily until 1 is done, no?

The Achilles heel of calibration is that users of color chart systems such as Xrite CC & QPcard (I have both) need to assure they either calibrate for every lighting type, or must be very sure about the accuracy of the so-called dual illuminant profiles. These systems are only very good in controlled environment, with QPcard being somewhat better than CC for mix lighting (yes, I think QPcard is milder & better than CC). These work fine for studio and landscapes, but will be a disaster for example, shooting in an event hall with tungsten ambient lights, daylight floud lights & our speed lights being gelled to the acceptable average of 3200K.

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