Will the A7711 be mirorless

Started Apr 2, 2014 | Discussions
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Ken Sky Regular Member • Posts: 296
Will the A7711 be mirorless

If SAR is to be believed, the replacement for the A77 will have the sensor in the A6000. Since this sensor has a very fast on-board AF, it begs the question "Is there any further need of SLT technology?". Will this new camera be mirrorless?

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havoc315 Senior Member • Posts: 2,781
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
1

No.

The a6000 still can't fully AF a-mount lenses without a mirror based adapter.
--
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tqlla Veteran Member • Posts: 3,169
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless

I doubt there will be a mirrorless Amount in the near future, based on this

*1 When using phase-detection AF, limited lenses will be compatible initially. Expansion is planned by body firmware update.

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IanML Senior Member • Posts: 1,653
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless

tqlla wrote:

I doubt there will be a mirrorless Amount in the near future, based on this

*1 When using phase-detection AF, limited lenses will be compatible initially. Expansion is planned by body firmware update.

This suggests that any new mirrorless camera must have lens-specific firmware, and possibly that the lenses also need specific firmware, as is the case with the NEX-5R and NEX-6, etc.  So it is not impossible that mirrorless could be achieved for a subset of A-mount lenses, which might mean a camera with mirror and separate phase-detect focus sensor, but that the mirror could be raised for the subset of lenses.

Sony marketing could see that as a good move to encourage sale of new lenses.

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Ian

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tqlla Veteran Member • Posts: 3,169
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless

IanML wrote:

tqlla wrote:

I doubt there will be a mirrorless Amount in the near future, based on this

*1 When using phase-detection AF, limited lenses will be compatible initially. Expansion is planned by body firmware update.

This suggests that any new mirrorless camera must have lens-specific firmware, and possibly that the lenses also need specific firmware, as is the case with the NEX-5R and NEX-6, etc. So it is not impossible that mirrorless could be achieved for a subset of A-mount lenses, which might mean a camera with mirror and separate phase-detect focus sensor, but that the mirror could be raised for the subset of lenses.

Sony marketing could see that as a good move to encourage sale of new lenses.

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Ian

I wonder how upset people would get if, Sony only wrote the firmware for Sony lenses, and not the older Minolta Maxxum lenses?

I suppose Sony could also have a flip up SLT, for when you are using compatible vs not compatible lenses.

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VirtualMirage
VirtualMirage Veteran Member • Posts: 3,696
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
5

havoc315 wrote:

No.

The a6000 still can't fully AF a-mount lenses without a mirror based adapter.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/havoc315/

So do you think that dedicated on sensor PDAF will never work with A-mount lenses and that a mirror has to be used with A-mount lenses?

Have you thought about that it may not be so much a limitation of the technology that is preventing it from working and more so a false restriction Sony has put in place so they can sell you more accessories or that the on sensor PDAF for the A6000 is optimized for the focusing motors used only in the E-mount lenses (which is different than screw drive and SSM)?

What do you think is so different between an on sensor PDAF and a dedicated PDAF sensor that a lens will only work on one of them?

The only difference between the two is one's light path doesn't get diverted and the other does. The one whose light path is diverted travels the same distance, it only takes an extra 90 degree turn.

PDAF is PDAF. Whether it be on sensor or a dedicated chip, the principle is the same. The lens doesn't cares if the path to the PDAF is straight or if it takes a turn by a mirror. The lens knows no difference.

Now the focusing mechanism by the lens (SSM, screw driven, SAM, etc.) can make a difference if it is not optimized for PDAF, hence why lenses designed for contrast AF don't perform that well on PDAF cameras and vice versa.

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Paul

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EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless

If SAR is to be believed, the replacement for the A77 will have the sensor in the A6000. Since this sensor has a very fast on-board AF, it begs the question "Is there any further need of SLT technology?". Will this new camera be mirrorless?

Unlikely. Sony E-mount was built from ground up for mirrorless, while A-mount was developed for mirror based PDAF. The former takes into consideration any need for CDAF in the lens AF design.

But, A-mount lenses have been designed for PDAF only. Unless a6000 AF system is purely PDAF, it is unlikely to translate directly to A-mount as is.

A possible scenario is that new lenses and updates to some lenses (latest being 70-200G II) potentially have been given the capability to go mirrorless. This will involve design of SSM (perhaps SAM too) to add CDAF capabilties. But old lenses won't have the luxury.

If that is the case, a possibility of part time mirrorless exists. Whether this happens with a77 II remains to be seen but it could be mirrorless with these specific lenses (and any new/updated lenses) but to support legacy, SLT will be needed.

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VirtualMirage
VirtualMirage Veteran Member • Posts: 3,696
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless

Ken Sky wrote:

If SAR is to be believed, the replacement for the A77 will have the sensor in the A6000. Since this sensor has a very fast on-board AF, it begs the question "Is there any further need of SLT technology?". Will this new camera be mirrorless?

If I read the rumor correctly, they didn't say it will have the same sensor as that used in the A6000.  They did say that they couldn't confirm if it is the same one used in the A6000.

Saying that, it could more than likely be a similar sensor but tweaked slightly differently (same fab, different optimizations, for example).

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Paul

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Glenn Veteran Member • Posts: 7,579
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless

PDAF and OS PDAF are basically the same I don't see how anything on a lens can have anything to do with it. on the other hand I can see CDAF being completely ineffective if there is any slop in the focus mechanisms.

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K E Hoffman
K E Hoffman Senior Member • Posts: 4,841
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless

havoc315 wrote:

No.

The a6000 still can't fully AF a-mount lenses without a mirror based adapter.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/havoc315/

I wonder if it has to do with edge softness.  Is it the sensors or the fact that the sensors go out to the edges and what is "focus" for some lenses outside of the normal focus area might have to be mapped in the firmware

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K.E.H. >> Shooting between raindrops in WA<<
Don't Panic!.. these are just opinions... go take some pictures..

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EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Depends

PDAF and OS PDAF are basically the same I don't see how anything on a lens can have anything to do with it. on the other hand I can see CDAF being completely ineffective if there is any slop in the focus mechanisms.

Shoot babies to fight infant eye cancer.
http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/photored-empower-photographers-to-capture-and-recognize-eye-cancer-in-children
http://www.daisyfund.org/rb/leuko/

OSPDAF has generally been with CDAF, as in hybrid AF. In this case, you have part PDAF and part CDAF: former for speed and latter for accuracy.

This situation complicates the lens compatibility. PDAF works by moving quickly in one direction and acquiring focus. For this, AF motors are designed to move in one direction as quickly as possible. This is traditional point of SSM and like.

With CDAF involved (for precision of focus), the movement becomes evaluative going back and forth. This is where likes of SSM struggle. Yet, if you look at RX10, Sony has used SSM even though the camera is CDAF only. But, it is not just SSM either. Sony has used dual motor AF system, one to move quickly in one direction (SSM) and another to apply brakes (piezo electric motor which is used in Sony Steady Shot). It is possible that "SSM updates" (may be even SAM) involves this.

Or, if a6000 AF is pure PDAF, then it can indeed translate directly to A-mount. Any involvement of CDAF and the above will apply.

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EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless

havoc315 wrote:

No.

The a6000 still can't fully AF a-mount lenses without a mirror based adapter.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/havoc315/

I wonder if it has to do with edge softness.  Is it the sensors or the fact that the sensors go out to the edges and what is "focus" for some lenses outside of the normal focus area might have to be mapped in the firmware

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K.E.H. >> Shooting between raindrops in WA<<
Don't Panic!.. these are just opinions... go take some pictures..

There are two possibilities:
- Adapter firmware (this of course would apply only to the mirrorless adapter EA1/3 since the SLT adapters override native AF system). EA1/3 will AF but can't do so with speed of SLT adapter (and do not support screw drive AF unlike SLT adapter). In fact, originally, it didn't have AF at all but a firmware update brought that in.
- CDAF involvement: AF motors in PDAF lenses are not capable of working well with CDAF. It will likely take an updated lens AF system or mechanism built into E-mount lenses.

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123Mike Senior Member • Posts: 4,643
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless

I bet it will be mirrorless and with E-mount and with IBIS and with an adapter that's like the LA-EA1 but with a focus motor and that the PDAF on the sensor will direct all the focusing instructions just fine. I don't believe for a split second, for instance, that a mirror is necessary at all. Not anymore.

I also think there are going to be more E-mount lenses that are longer and brighter. Tamron and Sigma have been lethargic, but Samyang is looking like a more serious contenders. There are winners and losers.

havoc315 Senior Member • Posts: 2,781
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless

havoc315 wrote:

No.

The a6000 still can't fully AF a-mount lenses without a mirror based adapter.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/havoc315/

So do you think that dedicated on sensor PDAF will never work with A-mount lenses and that a mirror has to be used with A-mount lenses?

Have you thought about that it may not be so much a limitation of the technology that is preventing it from working and more so a false restriction Sony has put in place so they can sell you more accessories or that the on sensor PDAF for the A6000 is optimized for the focusing motors used only in the E-mount lenses (which is different than screw drive and SSM)?

What do you think is so different between an on sensor PDAF and a dedicated PDAF sensor that a lens will only work on one of them?

The only difference between the two is one's light path doesn't get diverted and the other does. The one whose light path is diverted travels the same distance, it only takes an extra 90 degree turn.

PDAF is PDAF. Whether it be on sensor or a dedicated chip, the principle is the same. The lens doesn't cares if the path to the PDAF is straight or if it takes a turn by a mirror. The lens knows no difference.

Now the focusing mechanism by the lens (SSM, screw driven, SAM, etc.) can make a difference if it is not optimized for PDAF, hence why lenses designed for contrast AF don't perform that well on PDAF cameras and vice versa.

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Paul

I didn't say "never."

But every indication is that the technology isn't there yet.
--
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tqlla Veteran Member • Posts: 3,169
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless

123Mike wrote:

I bet it will be mirrorless and with E-mount and with IBIS and with an adapter that's like the LA-EA1 but with a focus motor and that the PDAF on the sensor will direct all the focusing instructions just fine. I don't believe for a split second, for instance, that a mirror is necessary at all. Not anymore.

I also think there are going to be more E-mount lenses that are longer and brighter. Tamron and Sigma have been lethargic, but Samyang is looking like a more serious contenders. There are winners and losers.

There will be RIOTS if Sony releases an A77 II as an emount camera.

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123Mike Senior Member • Posts: 4,643
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless

tqlla wrote:

123Mike wrote:

I bet it will be mirrorless and with E-mount and with IBIS and with an adapter that's like the LA-EA1 but with a focus motor and that the PDAF on the sensor will direct all the focusing instructions just fine. I don't believe for a split second, for instance, that a mirror is necessary at all. Not anymore.

I also think there are going to be more E-mount lenses that are longer and brighter. Tamron and Sigma have been lethargic, but Samyang is looking like a more serious contenders. There are winners and losers.

There will be RIOTS if Sony releases an A77 II as an emount camera.

What about that hybrid mount perhaps... http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-first-few-hybrid-a-e-mount-model-details/

"it will target the high end market"... perhaps it will compete with the Hasselblad... (that's not good)

EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless

As much as I would like to see a hybrid mount body, I have my doubts. It will have to be adapter based (which I have no issue with, as long as it seamlessly fits and works).

Now, if the two mounts/bayonets were identical except for the flange to begin with, a built-in mechanical approach would have been easier.

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danny006 Senior Member • Posts: 1,087
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless

I think the translucent will be gone with the A77II. Just my thought. Looks like the A6000 is performing really well and with a big buffer of about 50 shots at 11fps. What more do you want? And better noise performance.

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EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless

I think the translucent will be gone with the A77II. Just my thought. Looks like the A6000 is performing really well and with a big buffer of about 50 shots at 11fps. What more do you want? And better noise performance.

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It won't be that simple. If the focal plane AF system does not work well with older lenses, SLT is here to stay, even part time (as in depending on the lens).

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tqlla Veteran Member • Posts: 3,169
Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless

123Mike wrote:

tqlla wrote:

123Mike wrote:

I bet it will be mirrorless and with E-mount and with IBIS and with an adapter that's like the LA-EA1 but with a focus motor and that the PDAF on the sensor will direct all the focusing instructions just fine. I don't believe for a split second, for instance, that a mirror is necessary at all. Not anymore.

I also think there are going to be more E-mount lenses that are longer and brighter. Tamron and Sigma have been lethargic, but Samyang is looking like a more serious contenders. There are winners and losers.

There will be RIOTS if Sony releases an A77 II as an emount camera.

What about that hybrid mount perhaps... http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-first-few-hybrid-a-e-mount-model-details/

"it will target the high end market"... perhaps it will compete with the Hasselblad... (that's not good)

What SAR basically described was a Nex with an LA-EA1 or EA2 adapter.  It clicks in and has a button to release it.

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