What else is happening before the first curtain on E-M1?

Started Mar 31, 2014 | Discussions
jalywol
jalywol Veteran Member • Posts: 9,424
Re: Shutter video

Can you label those charts as to what is happening at each peak?  I can't quite figure it out without a guide

-J

Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Shutter video

radsaq wrote:

Anders W wrote:

radsaq wrote:

If the shutter is cocked and then reopened immediately before the sensor is reset, doesn't that mean the entire process could be done in the same time that a normal shutter cycle occurs? The shutter will normally be waiting some number of milliseconds in the cocked (closed) state to let the sensor reset happen before it opens. As far as we can surmise, it's not, and so that has effectively freed up that same interval to be used for the same step, just in a different order. Right?

I would hope you are right but I am not so sure about that. I don't think the first mechanical curtain really needs to wait for the sensor to reset, at least if they've programmed things optimally from the beginning. It will take the mechanical shutter about 1/320 s to close its first curtain (since that's about how fast the blades can move on the E-M1) and in order for the EFCS to sync with the second curtain, the sensor must have the capability to reset within the same interval.

We also have the observations to which I link below from another thread:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53418777

So a slight delay compared to mechanical shutter only (but less than the 1/8 s minimum of earlier anti-shock settings) seems likely at this stage. That said, I'll be more than happy if anyone can prove me wrong.

Here's a comparison of the sound of two 1/160s exposures in manual/MF with IS off. The EFCS is on top:

Looks like it's an additional 25ms of shutter lag?

Aah, many thanks for that! Very nice test and very nice results! As I said, I would have preferred to be proven completely wrong, but a delay of only 25 ms comes close enough for me to be happy. That's only 20 percent of the minimum delay previously available with anti-shock (125 ms) and with close to complete rather than partial blur elimination!

Two follow-up questions:

1. Is the zero-point on your time scale an absolute one, i.e., does it conform exactly to the time when the shutter button is fully depressed? If not, is there any way you (or anyone else) can manage a test that let us see the absolute shutter lag times (time between shutter button pressing and actual exposure)?

I am thinking here not only or primarily about the impact of the EFCS (where we now know we need to add about 25 ms) but also of the short release lag-time setting. One thing that still puzzles me is that Imaging Resource couldn't see any effect of that setting in their measurements and even claimed that it sometimes increased the lag slightly. See here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/olympus-e-m1/olympus-e-m1A6.HTM

Nearly the same story on the E-P5 where they (probably incorrectly) speculated that the short lag time setting was accomplished by means of EFCS:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/olympus-ep5/olympus-ep5A6.HTM

2. I have seen claims to the effect that when operating in high-speed burst mode, where the camera (E-M1 as well as several others) does not provide live view and does not do AF between shots, it no longer has the mechanical shutter do double duty (close-open-close-open) but single duty (open-close). Given that we now know that the E-M1 (and probably its predecessors too) cannot use the second curtain only but must go through all four phases before starting another cycle and given that the curtain opening for exposure must sync with the one closing for read-out, this would have to be accomplished as follows using the abbreviations listed:

FCC - first curtain closing

FCO - first curtain opening

SCC - second curtain closing

SCO - second curtain opening

First shot in the burst:  FCC-FCO-SCC

Second shot in the burst: SCO-FCC

Third shot in the burst: FCO-SCC

Fourth shot in the burst: SCO-FCC

and so on.

Since you appear to have everything set up nicely for testing this by means of sound profiles, could you please check it out.

Again, many thanks for the contribution you already made as well as for the additional ones you might be able to provide.

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Shutter video

Alien from Mars wrote:

radsaq wrote:

Here's a comparison of the sound of two 1/160s exposures in manual/MF with IS off. The EFCS is on top:

Looks like it's an additional 25ms of shutter lag?

Looks like it. 25ms after 1st curtain slams open so the shock is absorbed completely before exposure starts. What I don't understand - why do they still have to cycle 1st curtain close-open now?

Probably because the mechanical shutter is so constructed that it has to go through all four phases (first curtain closing - first curtain opening - second curtain closing - second curtain opening). It isn't designed to use the second curtain only, which would be the best solution when combined with EFCS.

Did you have "release lag time short" activated in this experiment?

And if not, could you please record the sounds with this setting active?

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Shutter video

Ken Strain wrote:

Alien from Mars wrote:

radsaq wrote:

Here's all four variations:

Thanks a lot!

So it seems it still fires the mechanical shutter with both curtains moving as usual, the EFC engages with 25ms delay after 1st shutter comes open.

and 25ms is just about the shortest time that lets the initial vibration ring down to what is very likely a negligible level, at least according to my measurements on other cameras PST . Of course the newer shutter might be a little different, but the three I looked at were all much the same in terms of damping time.

Nice to see your earlier measurements come in handy here. I already thought of those when I was thinking about how long it might take for the various shocks to die down but hadn't had the time to check back on them yet.

From my point of view the biggest improvement in Olympus MFT since the move away from the 12 Mpixel sensors.

From mine as well (although the built-in EVF and new IBIS introduced with the E-M5 come close).

I very much hope it spreads to the smaller bodies.

I would think it does. Hopefully, they'll also introduce shutters that have an option for working with one curtain only and a solution that permits burst-mode operation with EFCS with only a small penalty in terms of fps.

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tt321
tt321 Forum Pro • Posts: 12,649
Re: Shutter video

Anders W wrote:

radsaq wrote:

Anders W wrote:

radsaq wrote:

If the shutter is cocked and then reopened immediately before the sensor is reset, doesn't that mean the entire process could be done in the same time that a normal shutter cycle occurs? The shutter will normally be waiting some number of milliseconds in the cocked (closed) state to let the sensor reset happen before it opens. As far as we can surmise, it's not, and so that has effectively freed up that same interval to be used for the same step, just in a different order. Right?

I would hope you are right but I am not so sure about that. I don't think the first mechanical curtain really needs to wait for the sensor to reset, at least if they've programmed things optimally from the beginning. It will take the mechanical shutter about 1/320 s to close its first curtain (since that's about how fast the blades can move on the E-M1) and in order for the EFCS to sync with the second curtain, the sensor must have the capability to reset within the same interval.

We also have the observations to which I link below from another thread:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53418777

So a slight delay compared to mechanical shutter only (but less than the 1/8 s minimum of earlier anti-shock settings) seems likely at this stage. That said, I'll be more than happy if anyone can prove me wrong.

Here's a comparison of the sound of two 1/160s exposures in manual/MF with IS off. The EFCS is on top:

Looks like it's an additional 25ms of shutter lag?

Aah, many thanks for that! Very nice test and very nice results! As I said, I would have preferred to be proven completely wrong, but a delay of only 25 ms comes close enough for me to be happy. That's only 20 percent of the minimum delay previously available with anti-shock (125 ms) and with close to complete rather than partial blur elimination!

Two follow-up questions:

1. Is the zero-point on your time scale an absolute one, i.e., does it conform exactly to the time when the shutter button is fully depressed? If not, is there any way you (or anyone else) can manage a test that let us see the absolute shutter lag times (time between shutter button pressing and actual exposure)?

I am thinking here not only or primarily about the impact of the EFCS (where we now know we need to add about 25 ms) but also of the short release lag-time setting. One thing that still puzzles me is that Imaging Resource couldn't see any effect of that setting in their measurements and even claimed that it sometimes increased the lag slightly. See here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/olympus-e-m1/olympus-e-m1A6.HTM

Nearly the same story on the E-P5 where they (probably incorrectly) speculated that the short lag time setting was accomplished by means of EFCS:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/olympus-ep5/olympus-ep5A6.HTM

2. I have seen claims to the effect that when operating in high-speed burst mode, where the camera (E-M1 as well as several others) does not provide live view and does not do AF between shots, it no longer has the mechanical shutter do double duty (close-open-close-open) but single duty (open-close). Given that we now know that the E-M1 (and probably its predecessors too) cannot use the second curtain only but must go through all four phases before starting another cycle and given that the curtain opening for exposure must sync with the one closing for read-out, this would have to be accomplished as follows using the abbreviations listed:

FCC - first curtain closing

FCO - first curtain opening

SCC - second curtain closing

SCO - second curtain opening

First shot in the burst: FCC-FCO-SCC

Second shot in the burst: SCO-FCC

Third shot in the burst: FCO-SCC

Fourth shot in the burst: SCO-FCC

If this is true, one could test it by fast panning when shooting with fast shutter speeds with narrow opening (1/4000, for instance). Every shot would have vertical lines leaning in a different way to the next.

Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Shutter video
1

tt321 wrote:

Anders W wrote:

radsaq wrote:

Anders W wrote:

radsaq wrote:

If the shutter is cocked and then reopened immediately before the sensor is reset, doesn't that mean the entire process could be done in the same time that a normal shutter cycle occurs? The shutter will normally be waiting some number of milliseconds in the cocked (closed) state to let the sensor reset happen before it opens. As far as we can surmise, it's not, and so that has effectively freed up that same interval to be used for the same step, just in a different order. Right?

I would hope you are right but I am not so sure about that. I don't think the first mechanical curtain really needs to wait for the sensor to reset, at least if they've programmed things optimally from the beginning. It will take the mechanical shutter about 1/320 s to close its first curtain (since that's about how fast the blades can move on the E-M1) and in order for the EFCS to sync with the second curtain, the sensor must have the capability to reset within the same interval.

We also have the observations to which I link below from another thread:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53418777

So a slight delay compared to mechanical shutter only (but less than the 1/8 s minimum of earlier anti-shock settings) seems likely at this stage. That said, I'll be more than happy if anyone can prove me wrong.

Here's a comparison of the sound of two 1/160s exposures in manual/MF with IS off. The EFCS is on top:

Looks like it's an additional 25ms of shutter lag?

Aah, many thanks for that! Very nice test and very nice results! As I said, I would have preferred to be proven completely wrong, but a delay of only 25 ms comes close enough for me to be happy. That's only 20 percent of the minimum delay previously available with anti-shock (125 ms) and with close to complete rather than partial blur elimination!

Two follow-up questions:

1. Is the zero-point on your time scale an absolute one, i.e., does it conform exactly to the time when the shutter button is fully depressed? If not, is there any way you (or anyone else) can manage a test that let us see the absolute shutter lag times (time between shutter button pressing and actual exposure)?

I am thinking here not only or primarily about the impact of the EFCS (where we now know we need to add about 25 ms) but also of the short release lag-time setting. One thing that still puzzles me is that Imaging Resource couldn't see any effect of that setting in their measurements and even claimed that it sometimes increased the lag slightly. See here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/olympus-e-m1/olympus-e-m1A6.HTM

Nearly the same story on the E-P5 where they (probably incorrectly) speculated that the short lag time setting was accomplished by means of EFCS:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/olympus-ep5/olympus-ep5A6.HTM

2. I have seen claims to the effect that when operating in high-speed burst mode, where the camera (E-M1 as well as several others) does not provide live view and does not do AF between shots, it no longer has the mechanical shutter do double duty (close-open-close-open) but single duty (open-close). Given that we now know that the E-M1 (and probably its predecessors too) cannot use the second curtain only but must go through all four phases before starting another cycle and given that the curtain opening for exposure must sync with the one closing for read-out, this would have to be accomplished as follows using the abbreviations listed:

FCC - first curtain closing

FCO - first curtain opening

SCC - second curtain closing

SCO - second curtain opening

First shot in the burst: FCC-FCO-SCC

Second shot in the burst: SCO-FCC

Third shot in the burst: FCO-SCC

Fourth shot in the burst: SCO-FCC

If this is true, one could test it by fast panning when shooting with fast shutter speeds with narrow opening (1/4000, for instance). Every shot would have vertical lines leaning in a different way to the next.

Correct. That's another possibility.

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radsaq
radsaq Contributing Member • Posts: 914
Re: Shutter video

Anders W wrote:

radsaq wrote:

Anders W wrote:

radsaq wrote:

If the shutter is cocked and then reopened immediately before the sensor is reset, doesn't that mean the entire process could be done in the same time that a normal shutter cycle occurs? The shutter will normally be waiting some number of milliseconds in the cocked (closed) state to let the sensor reset happen before it opens. As far as we can surmise, it's not, and so that has effectively freed up that same interval to be used for the same step, just in a different order. Right?

I would hope you are right but I am not so sure about that. I don't think the first mechanical curtain really needs to wait for the sensor to reset, at least if they've programmed things optimally from the beginning. It will take the mechanical shutter about 1/320 s to close its first curtain (since that's about how fast the blades can move on the E-M1) and in order for the EFCS to sync with the second curtain, the sensor must have the capability to reset within the same interval.

We also have the observations to which I link below from another thread:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53418777

So a slight delay compared to mechanical shutter only (but less than the 1/8 s minimum of earlier anti-shock settings) seems likely at this stage. That said, I'll be more than happy if anyone can prove me wrong.

Here's a comparison of the sound of two 1/160s exposures in manual/MF with IS off. The EFCS is on top:

Looks like it's an additional 25ms of shutter lag?

Aah, many thanks for that! Very nice test and very nice results! As I said, I would have preferred to be proven completely wrong, but a delay of only 25 ms comes close enough for me to be happy. That's only 20 percent of the minimum delay previously available with anti-shock (125 ms) and with close to complete rather than partial blur elimination!

Two follow-up questions:

1. Is the zero-point on your time scale an absolute one, i.e., does it conform exactly to the time when the shutter button is fully depressed? If not, is there any way you (or anyone else) can manage a test that let us see the absolute shutter lag times (time between shutter button pressing and actual exposure)?

I am thinking here not only or primarily about the impact of the EFCS (where we now know we need to add about 25 ms) but also of the short release lag-time setting. One thing that still puzzles me is that Imaging Resource couldn't see any effect of that setting in their measurements and even claimed that it sometimes increased the lag slightly. See here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/olympus-e-m1/olympus-e-m1A6.HTM

Nearly the same story on the E-P5 where they (probably incorrectly) speculated that the short lag time setting was accomplished by means of EFCS:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/olympus-ep5/olympus-ep5A6.HTM

[...]

Since you appear to have everything set up nicely for testing this by means of sound profiles, could you please check it out.

Again, many thanks for the contribution you already made as well as for the additional ones you might be able to provide.

I wish I could claim any sort of sophistication, but I simply held my smartphone up to the camera, snapped a couple shots, then imported them into audacity and trimmed them until they roughly lined up (note: they're definitely not quite lined up :-)), followed by an amplify. I believe the first small bump in each is me actuating the shutter release, but I could be wrong.

I'm also somewhat confused as to what's actually happening in each case. Is the exposure happening during the third and fourth large blips (055-080 for EFCS, 055-060 for MFCS)? Someone else feel free to copy and label the screenshot if you're confident about it.

Furthermore, it appears as though the short release lag option is only cutting down the time to exposure by 5-10ms (from about 40ms to 35ms or so?). Useful to have options, but probably not worth the battery drain for most people.

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JABB66 Contributing Member • Posts: 560
Re: What else is happening before the first curtain on E-M1?

Jim Salvas wrote:

Next step might be high speed photography of this happening. Wish I had that new Olympus compact, with 120fps.

Hello Jim

Better a Casio EX-FH100, High Speed camera with aperture and shutter speed control for both video and stills. 2010 model, latter ones don't have manual control in video

Jose

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Shutter video

radsaq wrote:

Anders W wrote:

radsaq wrote:

Anders W wrote:

radsaq wrote:

If the shutter is cocked and then reopened immediately before the sensor is reset, doesn't that mean the entire process could be done in the same time that a normal shutter cycle occurs? The shutter will normally be waiting some number of milliseconds in the cocked (closed) state to let the sensor reset happen before it opens. As far as we can surmise, it's not, and so that has effectively freed up that same interval to be used for the same step, just in a different order. Right?

I would hope you are right but I am not so sure about that. I don't think the first mechanical curtain really needs to wait for the sensor to reset, at least if they've programmed things optimally from the beginning. It will take the mechanical shutter about 1/320 s to close its first curtain (since that's about how fast the blades can move on the E-M1) and in order for the EFCS to sync with the second curtain, the sensor must have the capability to reset within the same interval.

We also have the observations to which I link below from another thread:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53418777

So a slight delay compared to mechanical shutter only (but less than the 1/8 s minimum of earlier anti-shock settings) seems likely at this stage. That said, I'll be more than happy if anyone can prove me wrong.

Here's a comparison of the sound of two 1/160s exposures in manual/MF with IS off. The EFCS is on top:

Looks like it's an additional 25ms of shutter lag?

Aah, many thanks for that! Very nice test and very nice results! As I said, I would have preferred to be proven completely wrong, but a delay of only 25 ms comes close enough for me to be happy. That's only 20 percent of the minimum delay previously available with anti-shock (125 ms) and with close to complete rather than partial blur elimination!

Two follow-up questions:

1. Is the zero-point on your time scale an absolute one, i.e., does it conform exactly to the time when the shutter button is fully depressed? If not, is there any way you (or anyone else) can manage a test that let us see the absolute shutter lag times (time between shutter button pressing and actual exposure)?

I am thinking here not only or primarily about the impact of the EFCS (where we now know we need to add about 25 ms) but also of the short release lag-time setting. One thing that still puzzles me is that Imaging Resource couldn't see any effect of that setting in their measurements and even claimed that it sometimes increased the lag slightly. See here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/olympus-e-m1/olympus-e-m1A6.HTM

Nearly the same story on the E-P5 where they (probably incorrectly) speculated that the short lag time setting was accomplished by means of EFCS:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/olympus-ep5/olympus-ep5A6.HTM

[...]

Since you appear to have everything set up nicely for testing this by means of sound profiles, could you please check it out.

Again, many thanks for the contribution you already made as well as for the additional ones you might be able to provide.

I wish I could claim any sort of sophistication, but I simply held my smartphone up to the camera, snapped a couple shots, then imported them into audacity and trimmed them until they roughly lined up (note: they're definitely not quite lined up :-)), followed by an amplify. I believe the first small bump in each is me actuating the shutter release, but I could be wrong.

Well, this is a hard part. There is the possibility of enabling the beep on shutter press but I am not sure how far that will take us since we don't know how quickly the beep is issued after the button is pressed under this or that circumstance. If you have a remote, you could possibly try holding that close to the smartphone and coming down on the button quickly and violently. Anyone have a better idea? I am not at all sure mine is any good.

I'm also somewhat confused as to what's actually happening in each case. Is the exposure happening during the third and fourth large blips (055-080 for EFCS, 055-060 for MFCS)? Someone else feel free to copy and label the screenshot if you're confident about it.

This is my interpretation. If anyone else thinks differently, please feel free to offer an alternative view.

0. Shutter "cocked" (prepared for action)

1. First mechanical curtain closing (for sensor reset without EFCS) and opening (for exposure without EFCS)

2. Second curtain closing (to end exposure and read the sensor)

3. Second curtain opening (to resume live view)

Furthermore, it appears as though the short release lag option is only cutting down the time to exposure by 5-10ms (from about 40ms to 35ms or so?). Useful to have options, but probably not worth the battery drain for most people.

Well that's one of the interesting questions here. You might be right that the time saved is very small but ...

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Jim Salvas
OP Jim Salvas Veteran Member • Posts: 5,515
Re: Shutter video

I don't have the software to do it, but if someone had a better video editor that showed a sound meter, it would be easier to figure out which movements went with which sounds.

On my little video, I can see when I go through frame by frame that two fairly loud clicks come before the first curtain closes. My guess is they are associated with an internal spring or a solenoid which trips the shutter. The shutter blades themselves are associated with much more muted sounds.

However, my video editor does not show me a synced sound graph, so I can't relate it to the above audio recording.

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Jim Salvas

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Alien from Mars
Alien from Mars Contributing Member • Posts: 567
Re: Shutter video

Anders W wrote:

This is my interpretation. If anyone else thinks differently, please feel free to offer an alternative view.

0. Shutter "cocked" (prepared for action)

1. First mechanical curtain closing (for sensor reset without EFCS) and opening (for exposure without EFCS)

2. Second curtain closing (to end exposure and read the sensor)

3. Second curtain opening (to resume live view)

IMHO, these two largest peaks are cocking of 1st and 2nd curtains. In normal mode that happens right before the exposure, in "release lag short" after the exposure and then camera keeps them ready to fire for the next shot. What's puzzling is the fact there's no obvious shortening of the shutter lag, just a few ms.

Also it seems that cocking the shutter for the "main" action (opening for 1st and closing for 2nd) is independent from 1st curtain closing before the exposure, I mean the mechanism that closes 1st curtain is different from one that opens it. It can be open but ready to be opened again (in "release time short" mode).

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Alien from Mars
Alien from Mars Contributing Member • Posts: 567
Re: Shutter video

Here are my humble suggestions.

FCC- First curtain closes

C-1 - cocking of the 1st curtain

C-2 - cocking of the 2nd curtain

FCO - first curain opens

SCC - second curtain closes

SCO - second curtain opens (should be one of these peaks, really doesn't matter which one).

I also aligned the graphs using 2 first peaks which seem unchanged for all shutter modes.

So the shutter lag in "release lag time short" mode is ~4ms shorter than regular one.

In the EFC mode first curtain moves ~2ms earlier that in fully mechanical mode.

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Shutter video

Alien from Mars wrote:

Here are my humble suggestions.

FCC- First curtain closes

C-1 - cocking of the 1st curtain

C-2 - cocking of the 2nd curtain

FCO - first curain opens

SCC - second curtain closes

SCO - second curtain opens (should be one of these peaks, really doesn't matter which one).

I also aligned the graphs using 2 first peaks which seem unchanged for all shutter modes.

So the shutter lag in "release lag time short" mode is ~4ms shorter than regular one.

In the EFC mode first curtain moves ~2ms earlier that in fully mechanical mode.

Yes, it is conceivable that the peak you marked is FCC. Whether it is or not should be readily testable (are you listening radsaq?) by comparing ordinary 1/8-second antishock with no antishock. If your theory is correct, we should see an increase in the time between the peak you marked FCC and the one you marked FCO. If not, we should instead see the peak you marked FCO divide into two separate ones.

As to SCO: I think it might well be the case that the second curtain opens quite slowly and gradually and that's why we see "a long peak" (from about 0.120 to about 0.180 in the first graph) in this case. It wouldn't have to wait for the entire sensor to be read but could start opening as soon as the relevant rows have been read. Any other/better ideas?

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JABB66 Contributing Member • Posts: 560
Re: Need 1,000 fps at least.....

Hello

Guy Parsons wrote:

In the past I've done a 1,000 fps video of the E-PL5 shutter in action, but it definitely needs something better than my Casio ZR1000 to do that as things are still blurred frame by frame.

Sadly the Casio Ex-ZR1000 hasn't manual controls for shutter speed and aperture for video (only the Ex-FH100 has it, from the pocketable models, that would fix the blur in the High Speed videos).

And in the case of this model and its successor, the ZR-1200 (and ZR-1100 in Japan) they have added the dumbest implementation of the High Speed for stills of all their HS cameras, assigning it to a Scene mode in Best Shot, so when shutting HS images all the manual modes are disabled.

I say this because you could try with HS still bursts instead of High Speed movies, but to keep the shutter speed as fast as possible the only way would be to force the ISO to higher values than the resultant value using auto ISO.

Jose

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Alien from Mars
Alien from Mars Contributing Member • Posts: 567
Re: Shutter video

Anders W wrote:

Yes, it is conceivable that the peak you marked is FCC. Whether it is or not should be readily testable (are you listening radsaq?) by comparing ordinary 1/8-second antishock with no antishock. If your theory is correct, we should see an increase in the time between the peak you marked FCC and the one you marked FCO. If not, we should instead see the peak you marked FCO divide into two separate ones.

Sounds reasonable.

As to SCO: I think it might well be the case that the second curtain opens quite slowly and gradually and that's why we see "a long peak" (from about 0.120 to about 0.180 in the first graph) in this case. It wouldn't have to wait for the entire sensor to be read but could start opening as soon as the relevant rows have been read. Any other/better ideas?

I find it unlikely that SC would open slowly and move while sensor readout is in process. Makes no sense. But that's just MHO.

I still think that the second peak (of marked as "SCO?") is the SCO event and the first one (of those marked) is cocking of 2nd curtain for that movement. While no high speed and precision is required in that case (as with FCC) smaller forces could be employed there. But of course we cannot say for sure without high-speed video.

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Shutter video

Alien from Mars wrote:

Anders W wrote:

Yes, it is conceivable that the peak you marked is FCC. Whether it is or not should be readily testable (are you listening radsaq?) by comparing ordinary 1/8-second antishock with no antishock. If your theory is correct, we should see an increase in the time between the peak you marked FCC and the one you marked FCO. If not, we should instead see the peak you marked FCO divide into two separate ones.

Sounds reasonable.

As to SCO: I think it might well be the case that the second curtain opens quite slowly and gradually and that's why we see "a long peak" (from about 0.120 to about 0.180 in the first graph) in this case. It wouldn't have to wait for the entire sensor to be read but could start opening as soon as the relevant rows have been read. Any other/better ideas?

I find it unlikely that SC would open slowly and move while sensor readout is in process. Makes no sense. But that's just MHO.

I still think that the second peak (of marked as "SCO?") is the SCO event and the first one (of those marked) is cocking of 2nd curtain for that movement.

And what would all the noise from about 0.120 to about 0.180 in the first graph and in the neighborhood of those two peaks be about? And where would the corresponding "cocking" of the FCC be?

While no high speed and precision is required in that case (as with FCC) smaller forces could be employed there. But of course we cannot say for sure without high-speed video.

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Alien from Mars
Alien from Mars Contributing Member • Posts: 567
Re: Shutter video

Anders W wrote:

And what would all the noise from about 0.120 to about 0.180 in the first graph and in the neighborhood of those two peaks be about? And where would the corresponding "cocking" of the FCC be?

I just don't see the benefit of moving second curtain during sensor readout with a possible risk of image degradation because of light leaks.

While you might be right it's impossible to prove it or disprove without the high-speed video.

The noise could correspond to sensor stabilization system for example (yes, IS was off for exposure but EMs could re-engage after the exposure to recenter the sensor, don't you think?).

"cocking" for FCC could be the very first peak in the recording (marked "?"), could be the very last peak in the first two graphs (what I now suggest as SCO event).

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Shutter video

Alien from Mars wrote:

Anders W wrote:

And what would all the noise from about 0.120 to about 0.180 in the first graph and in the neighborhood of those two peaks be about? And where would the corresponding "cocking" of the FCC be?

I just don't see the benefit of moving second curtain during sensor readout with a possible risk of image degradation because of light leaks.

The benefit would be that the shutter is already open when read-out is complete, that the amplitude of shutter noise could be kept down towards the end (though there is not much evidence of that here), and that the user gets live-view partly back slightly earlier. Light leaks are probably not an issue if you keep a little margin. All this is just theory of course, but these are the advantages I can think of.

While you might be right it's impossible to prove it or disprove without the high-speed video.

Right. So we need that. Or at least additional evidence of one kind or another.

The noise could correspond to sensor stabilization system for example (yes, IS was off for exposure but EMs could re-engage after the exposure to recenter the sensor, don't you think?).

If IS is off, there should be no need to recenter the sensor after exposure. And such recentering wouldn't require anywhere nearly that much time.

"cocking" for FCC could be the very first peak in the recording (marked "?"), could be the very last peak in the first two graphs (what I now suggest as SCO event).

Yes, both are conceivable.

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Shutter video
1

Alien from Mars wrote:

Anders W wrote:

And what would all the noise from about 0.120 to about 0.180 in the first graph and in the neighborhood of those two peaks be about? And where would the corresponding "cocking" of the FCC be?

I just don't see the benefit of moving second curtain during sensor readout with a possible risk of image degradation because of light leaks.

While you might be right it's impossible to prove it or disprove without the high-speed video.

We don't have a high-speed video for the E-M1 yet (as far as I know). But here is one at 1200 fps for E-P2. The SCO is slower and more gradual than the three other shutter-blade movements, wouldn't you say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7Mg5Y3pZSE

The noise could correspond to sensor stabilization system for example (yes, IS was off for exposure but EMs could re-engage after the exposure to recenter the sensor, don't you think?).

"cocking" for FCC could be the very first peak in the recording (marked "?"), could be the very last peak in the first two graphs (what I now suggest as SCO event).

 Anders W's gear list:Anders W's gear list
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radsaq
radsaq Contributing Member • Posts: 914
Re: Shutter video

Anders W wrote:

Alien from Mars wrote:

Here are my humble suggestions.

FCC- First curtain closes

C-1 - cocking of the 1st curtain

C-2 - cocking of the 2nd curtain

FCO - first curain opens

SCC - second curtain closes

SCO - second curtain opens (should be one of these peaks, really doesn't matter which one).

I also aligned the graphs using 2 first peaks which seem unchanged for all shutter modes.

So the shutter lag in "release lag time short" mode is ~4ms shorter than regular one.

In the EFC mode first curtain moves ~2ms earlier that in fully mechanical mode.

Yes, it is conceivable that the peak you marked is FCC. Whether it is or not should be readily testable (are you listening radsaq?) by comparing ordinary 1/8-second antishock with no antishock. If your theory is correct, we should see an increase in the time between the peak you marked FCC and the one you marked FCO. If not, we should instead see the peak you marked FCO divide into two separate ones.

As to SCO: I think it might well be the case that the second curtain opens quite slowly and gradually and that's why we see "a long peak" (from about 0.120 to about 0.180 in the first graph) in this case. It wouldn't have to wait for the entire sensor to be read but could start opening as soon as the relevant rows have been read. Any other/better ideas?

Here's two more, 1/8s anti-shake at 1/160s followed by a 0s anti-shake shot at 1/40s:

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