What is YOUR market like?

Started Mar 31, 2014 | Discussions
FriscoRon Senior Member • Posts: 1,455
Here's the deal, Penguin
2

PenguinPhotoCo wrote:

And why are you so obsessed with me? Looking to date or something?

1. You're like an act at a circus that defies our imagination.

2. You're a contradiction, constantly crying out about the sky falling, yet claiming that you're having a very successful year.

3. You have so much advice to scare off newbies, yet you heed none of the advice given to you when you complain about your business not doing well. Yes, I know, you also say you're very successful this year. Please note No. 2.

4. You're like a Kardashian reality show. It's amazing how successful they are, given the lack of talent they have.

5. But I think most importantly, you seem to be on a mission to scare off any newbies considering getting into the field of pro photography, and I think many of us feel a need to balance your negativity toward them.  We know, you feel threatened by them because their low prices are cutting into your target market.

6. It also amazes me, given your success or lack of success, how much time you waste on this forum repeating the same spiel ad nauseum, and really offering nothing to the community besides your entertainment value. (I know, you'll say: Look, you just responded to me. But please count the number of daily responses you have, and their length. You waste a lot of time here, and that cuts into the time you should be spending building up your business.) Sorry, forgot, you're being immensely successful again this year. I keep forgetting with all your whining.

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Ron
www.ronmckinneystudios.com

FriscoRon Senior Member • Posts: 1,455
Re: Made me laugh

PenguinPhotoCo wrote:

I added emphasis. Seems many here say I'm a failure. And then you (and others) suggest I look into teaching, writing books on photography.

I guess the old cliche 'those that can do, those that can't teach' is true. LOL

I'd be curious how many people would sign up for a photography workshop led by you.

I'll start the list here:

1. __________________________

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Ron
www.ronmckinneystudios.com

photoreddi Veteran Member • Posts: 7,973
Answering

FriscoRon wrote:

NancyP wrote:

I assume that you have looked into all photography teaching and tour-leading opportunities in your area.

Oh, Nancy... Penguin is threatened by newbies, hates them. Can you imagine him teaching them? They would all need a therapist when he was done with them!

Yes they might, particularly any of the students after discovering that he frequently likened them to "terrorists". Right here. In this forum. Here are excepts from one reply that he titled "Newbies are like terrorists" :

They call themselves professionals and don't know jack about the profession.

...

These folks claim to love the profession, have a passion for photography - yet don't want to learn either, just make money. They don't care about the quality of their work, paying taxes, having insurance.

...

They somehow view themselves I guess as revolutionaries and us established pros as 'the evil king'. But we see newbies a lot more like terrorists or guerilla fighters - attacking our industry and attempting to destroy it.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51755300

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I am entitled to my opinion, anon or not. Mod or not. I'm a person and have opinions.

Are the flood of newbies terrorists? Well...wiki quotes this as 'economic terrorist'

... (Wiki quote skipped)

The salient points - non-state actors (aka not countries, but people, companies), create massive destabilization for ideological reasons (they think they have a better way, think the estabilished photogs are old and greedy). They could have immediate effects or psycological ones which in turn have economic consequences.

...

Digital photography is the weapon shall we say, that empowered the masses to overthrow the established way of doing business that had been around for 100 years.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3537920

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Go set off a bomb in a mall in prostest or cry fire in a theatre an dyou go to jail. Why? Because you did or can hurt someone, right?

You can set off a bomb or yell fire in the middle of field and nobody gets hurt and you don't go to jail.

OK...so all these illegal, part time, undercharging, low quality photographers are killng the industry and hurting those that do or try to make a living.

So yes, newbies that take on $50 shoots and don't have insurance, pay taxes, etc ARE hurting people - just like terrorists.

...

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51755672

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No business can compete with an charity - I can't sell what you give away free or below my cost. That's unfair competition - and illegal if say, chinese or russian steel mills 'dumped' steel in the US at a cost below production and those governments paid the companies back for the loss.

It's just easier to call the chinese or russians evil and unfair than the mom down the street, whose husband or day job does the same 'propping up' of her photo biz as the govts do to companies.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51757579

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I am not whining. The market is changing - you even admit that. Or else why would the old traditonalists be 'in trouble'.

But see, you fail to recognize that these old trad have been around 30 years - markets have changed before, bad economic times, competition comes and goes - and they survived. Now, however, they are not able to survive.

And no newbie is coming along to take over. 10 are fighting over the market as it drops in value and size like a pack of scavengers. And they are mean - well, even here you see them eschew any interest in the professional organizations, networking, building relationships with the 'establishment'.

So are you folks rebels and revolutionaries bring the Great New Age? Or terrorists and guirillas tearing down (photographic) society with no clue as to what the future is, should be or could be? You care nothing for the industry, reputation, networking, vendors, etc. Just a 'me me me' attitude - as long as you are doing well the heck with everyone else.

Now is this a photo only attitude or a generational/societal change? I fear the latter as i see similar attitudes and behavior in other areas (employees, sports leagues parents, the way people drive, in churches)

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3519407

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Too much. Literally, figuratively and punnily.

backayonder Senior Member • Posts: 1,243
What's your Market like?
1

Its a large open square with red and white covered stalls. The area around the High Street smells of fish but you can usually pick up a great piece of Haddock.

http://deangale.com/?gallery_page=slideshow&pp_gallery_id=1389058883

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OP PenguinPhotoCo Veteran Member • Posts: 6,284
Re: Answering

yes, running an illegal business is ECONOMIC TERRORISM.

If you're gonna quote me please do so accurately.

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Don't seek advice from someone who is not where you want to be - CJ Lewis
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value

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tcg550 Veteran Member • Posts: 7,473
Re: Answering

PenguinPhotoCo wrote:

yes, running an illegal business is ECONOMIC TERRORISM.

If you're gonna quote me please do so accurately.

I am not running an illegal business and you called me an economic terrorist, illegal, and ignorant.

photoreddi Veteran Member • Posts: 7,973
Re: Answering

PenguinPhotoCo wrote:

yes, running an illegal business is ECONOMIC TERRORISM.

If you're gonna quote me please do so accurately.

I did, with 100% accuracy. You imply that I didn't quote you accurately but once again you've made a charge without substance since you didn't/couldn't/wouldn't show an inaccurate quote. The more you do it the more people will come to recognize these tactics of bluff and bluster.

Links were provided to each of the quotes in my reply and as is plain to see, the quotes provided much more than enough context to avoid any possibility of being open to the charge of being misleading. One quote included the phrase "wiki quotes this as 'economic terrorist'" which by itself invalidates your charge, but more often not you referred to newbies as "terrorists" without any qualifying adjectives such as "economic", so if you wrote what you were thinking, you failed to quote/write your own ideas accurately. To wit :

So yes, newbies that take on $50 shoots and don't have insurance, pay taxes, etc ARE hurting people - just like terrorists.

Here you did imply an economic pressure or penalty but that is NOT "just like terrorists", otherwise when you or any other photographer takes clients away from other photographers or companies put other companies out of business by having a better product, having better marketing/advertising campaigns, knowing what their customers really want and giving it to them for a reasonable price, then by your logic they would also be "ECONOMIC TERRORISTS", which is an absurd proposition, unless you're willing to describe our system of capitalism as terrorism. If you believe this then it's not surprising that you're so perpetually negative. Some other quotes where you didn't ascribe the "terrorism" to economics :

.

So are you folks rebels and revolutionaries bring the Great New Age? Or terrorists and guirillas tearing down (photographic) society with no clue as to what the future is, should be or could be?

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They somehow view themselves I guess as revolutionaries and us established pros as 'the evil king'. But we see newbies a lot more like terrorists or guerilla fighters - attacking our industry and attempting to destroy it.

.

So in your mind the newbies that you so despise aren't really trying to get themselves started on a successful career (whether they eventually succeed or not), they're really trying to destroy the photographic industry from within. This sounds like you're attaching deeply held, almost conspiratorial political beliefs to whatever subject suits your fancy, in this case newbie photographers that seem to be responding to changes in the photographic industry and to the general economy faster than you are. I can see how that might be galling, but you'd be better off finding ways to deal with it than by railing and wailing and whining about it.

OP PenguinPhotoCo Veteran Member • Posts: 6,284
Re: What century do you live in?

the implication with 'i guess your wife has veto power' is I have no balls or something. Whether that was the intent or not I don't read minds, but it was how I read their post.

50 years ago when 'the man' ran the family they could and did issue edicts like 'we're moving' without concern about the effects on others or their feelings on the matter.

My wife and I have discussed moving, several times. She's not moving till the kids are out of HS. Period. She says i'm able to move- just she and the kdis aren't coming along.

So no, moving isn't an option.

It's just another example of people posting with the assumption I'm a retard or something. Of COURSE I considered moving. And considered adding video. and many other expansions.

And people ASSUME my business is failing without the information to know that.

Sales are not what I want them to be. I bet EVERYONE here can say that too.
Marketing is frustrating to do and the results are unpredictiable and its getting more so. More marketing for less results. I bet we can all say this too. EVERY industry can say that.

There is a difference between 'negative', 'reality' and 'hype'.

"you can make a fortune adding videography" is true. In my opinion there is a lot of hype in that statement. Kirk says it's true.

My experience says it's not...so opinion vs opinion.

I say do your research, check you market before making the investment. Reality plain and simple. Solid business advice.

Kirk implies we all have the skills and knowledge to pro or better videography. Hype, obviously. Rainbows and Unicorns.

"Yes YOU TOO can be RICH!" it's easy! Just go get a $25,000 video job. 3 days work! No experience necessary!

Is it? what does your experience tell you?

Don't seek advice from someone who is not where you want to be - CJ Lewis
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value

 PenguinPhotoCo's gear list:PenguinPhotoCo's gear list
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BrianYarvin
BrianYarvin Contributing Member • Posts: 507
Re: What century do you live in?

Penguin:

This is a perfect chance to thank you for posting samples of your current work. I really appreciate it. Why? Because now that I know both your work and Kirk's, I can decide for myself if adding video will work for me by looking at the work both of you do. With your samples, I can now understand your answers.

As an obvious next step, I'd like to ask Kirk a few technical questions about how to create a video strategy, but he seems to be off the board for some reason or another. Perhaps you could give the rest of us a chance at career building and invite him back?

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tcg550 Veteran Member • Posts: 7,473
Re: What century do you live in?
1

PenguinPhotoCo wrote:

It's just another example of people posting with the assumption I'm a retard or something. Of COURSE I considered moving. And considered adding video. and many other expansions.

When you're looking into new things to learn you might try learning which words are no longer acceptable.

markhayphotography Regular Member • Posts: 173
Re: What century do you live in?
1

PenguinPhotoCo wrote:


And people ASSUME my business is failing without the information to know that.

When you post about the dire circumstances in the industry and how much they are negatively affecting your business and livelihood, it implies that you are struggling with your business.

Some people (like my wife) tend to share their problems, but aren't sharing those problems because they want the problems "fixed." Rather, my wife would prefer that I just "empathize" with her and emotionally support her as she works through the problem....even if I have the answer (in my eyes). I've learned this the hard way a few times over.

Most of the folks on this forum are "fixers." But really, that's the problem here.

Sooo....it seems like you are often finding your business in a rough place, and that REALLY sucks. I can't imagine how you must feel when you post those countless threads. The newbies are nice people, but it bothers you that they might be hurting your future business. I feel really bad for you. Even though things will never get better because there seems to be some magical roadblock in the way of every bit of advice provided....we're all in this together and know that it's just really, really rough.

photoreddi Veteran Member • Posts: 7,973
Re: What century do you live in?
1

PenguinPhotoCo wrote:

the implication with 'i guess your wife has veto power' is I have no balls or something. Whether that was the intent or not I don't read minds, but it was how I read their post.

No, the way I understood it given your usual failure to illuminate was that you agreed with her decision, not that you disagreed but weren't strong enough to do anything about it. You make too many unfounded assumptions.

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50 years ago when 'the man' ran the family they could and did issue edicts like 'we're moving' without concern about the effects on others or their feelings on the matter.

Some still do but even back then, there were some women that made the family's decisions. Would you be as strong willed and/or as controlling as Joan Crawford ("Mommie Dearest") or Lillian Hellman or Eleanor Roosevelt or Ayn Rand (God forbid). I doubt it.

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My wife and I have discussed moving, several times. She's not moving till the kids are out of HS. Period. She says i'm able to move- just she and the kdis aren't coming along.

So no, moving isn't an option.

I can understand why you wouldn't consider a complete, total move to be acceptable. You could also have considered a partial move, setting up a small studio in a more amenable town/city, returning to your home several days each month, the expenses of which could be covered by the expected revenue increases. But even if you did consider this, it would be like you to also shoot the idea down faster than you thought of it.

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It's just another example of people posting with the assumption I'm a retard or something. Of COURSE I considered moving. And considered adding video. and many other expansions.

You're just repeating the obvious. How could you possibly NOT have considered moving and at the same time tell us that your wife wouldn't agree to moving. What people assume, probably correctly, is that you're an old dog that finds excuses to refuse to try to learn new tricks.

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And people ASSUME my business is failing without the information to know that.

Whether true or not, it's not an unreasonable assumption considering how you so often imply that some dollars don't find their way into your bank account or food into your mouth because of all of those newbie terrorists that are taking business away from pro photographers. You can't understand that all those newbies are here due to two factors, the greatly reduced prices of relatively high quality cameras, and the tremendous changes in economics. Newbie photographers aren't to blame for so many B&M camera shops going out of business unless you think that there are tens of thousands of newbie camera and lens dealers selling out of their garages with low, low prices because they get them hot out of their matter replicators instead of buying them from distributors.

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There is a difference between 'negative', 'reality' and 'hype'.

There's also a difference between occasional negative comments based on reality and an overwhelmingly, persistently negative attitude. You're well beyond the point where you've started to drive away readers that might have given your ideas and opinions the benefit of the doubt, had you posted those opinions more sparingly. Even though people standing on soap boxes, screaming at the top of their lungs get noticed, eventually they're no longer heard.

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Kirk implies we all have the skills and knowledge to pro or better videography. Hype, obviously. Rainbows and Unicorns.

No, this is another of your failed assumptions, at least as I see it. What I think he's saying is that some of us, not all or most of us, might have the skills and knowledge, and the ones that do can succeed if work hard enough and intelligently enough, but that they won't succeed if they don't even get started. It takes more effort than some are willing to expend.

.

"Yes YOU TOO can be RICH!" it's easy! Just go get a $25,000 video job. 3 days work! No experience necessary!

Is it? what does your experience tell you?

My experience tells me that you've already given up and are trying to justify it by conflating possibly rewarding ideas with "Get Rich Quick" schemes that have been dangled before the gullible for over 100 years. You're whitewashing with far too broad a brush.

nikoboivin Regular Member • Posts: 157
Re: thank you. So how large a market is needed?

PenguinPhotoCo wrote:

interesting. thanks

Avg income in your area is THREE TIMES what it is here. $158k vs 53k
avg house value in your town, $692,000. My town, $155,000.
Population change since 2000- you +4.4%, me -6%

So let me ask a different question- how large a population is needed to support a photography studio?

If one needs say, 120k in sales, will a town of 1000 or 10,000 residents be needed?

The average income in Quebec city (where I live) is about 40K, that is before 35-45% (depending on income) in provincial and federal taxes on revenues and a 15% sales tax on everything. You can't get a combo for under 10$ at McDonald's in Quebec because the minimum wage is over 10$/h (10.15$ to be precise) and yet a lot of photographers are doing really well. I understand you're part of the Pittsburg - New Castle Metro Area, meaning you're probably less than an hour away from Pittsburg.

I know every photographer who's less than an hour away from Quebec is marketting and working on getting clients from the city instead of from their local town to get more reach and some of the ones that do really well are almost at the limit of that one hour circle. Yes, it means they have to commute to meet clients or that clients have to drive to them. And gas costs 5.07$ a gallon.

Now if we compare, the Quebec metro area has about 751 990 people, and Pittsburgh metro has 2,360,733. There's a Bentley dealership in Pittsburg, trust me we don't have one in Quebec.

That's my market.

PS : When people commute, they're not being paid.  You made the choice, at some point, to live in a rural area. That choice implies, for most people, that the cost of life is lower (house/rent, food...), but that they'll have to commute to go to work.  That expense gets in their living costs and is in the budget as such.

BrianYarvin
BrianYarvin Contributing Member • Posts: 507
Re: thank you. So how large a market is needed?
I know every photographer who's less than an hour away from Quebec is marketting and working on getting clients from the city instead of from their local town to get more reach and some of the ones that do really well are almost at the limit of that one hour circle. Yes, it means they have to commute to meet clients or that clients have to drive to them. And gas costs 5.07$ a gallon.

I suspect that at least a few of the photographers in Quebec City are actively marketing in Montreal too. I'd also bet that a smaller number of aggressive commercial shooters are getting work in Toronto and New York or maybe even London and Paris. Like the wild country of Western PA, Quebec City has a look and feel that makes photos shot there appear to be in a whole other part of the world.

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nikoboivin Regular Member • Posts: 157
Re: thank you. So how large a market is needed?
1

BrianYarvin wrote:

I suspect that at least a few of the photographers in Quebec City are actively marketing in Montreal too. I'd also bet that a smaller number of aggressive commercial shooters are getting work in Toronto and New York or maybe even London and Paris. Like the wild country of Western PA, Quebec City has a look and feel that makes photos shot there appear to be in a whole other part of the world.

I know this to be right for some.  I know of a few photographers who are indeed getting Part/most of their jobs outside the "regular" Quebec market.  I've recently talked with one who sold his studio in Quebec to his assistant because he's getting more and more jobs in Vancouver due to clients there raving about him.  Mind you, Vancouver is a mere 3200 miles drive from Quebec, so it's no big deal.

But yeah, Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto are all markets for the bigger players in my market.  The same is true on the other side, many Montreal wedding photographers are marketting in Quebec because of the many people coming to the Chateau Frontenac and such for their wedding.

OP PenguinPhotoCo Veteran Member • Posts: 6,284
Re: What century do you live in?

I haven't done video in 30 years.

I have a gallery here with images. Just uploaded some recent ones this week.

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Don't seek advice from someone who is not where you want to be - CJ Lewis
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OP PenguinPhotoCo Veteran Member • Posts: 6,284
Re: What century do you live in?

words exist to be used, to get ideas across, to make a point.

I'm not a fan of the 'pc' world - everyone has become sooo touchy and lives on soundbites the ability to communicate is vanishing rapidly.

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Don't seek advice from someone who is not where you want to be - CJ Lewis
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value

 PenguinPhotoCo's gear list:PenguinPhotoCo's gear list
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OP PenguinPhotoCo Veteran Member • Posts: 6,284
Re: What century do you live in?

markhayphotography wrote:

PenguinPhotoCo wrote:

And people ASSUME my business is failing without the information to know that.

When you post about the dire circumstances in the industry and how much they are negatively affecting your business and livelihood, it implies that you are struggling with your business.

Struggling is an interesting choice of words.

Every market is different, not just economically but culturally, traditions, etc. I live in a area with a very low 'transient' rate - as in people moving in and out. Most are born here, stay here, their parents, grandparents and such all live nearby.

The latest challenge here is life touch. (google them if you don't know them). 5 years ago they had 1 school and now they have 2/3 if not more. every year they get another school. This is pushing local studios out of schools - hurting their bottom line.

So one pretty left the market on schools and sports, got a job teaching and does only studio work.
another decided to go balls to the wall after sports leagues.

Just as I am 'struggling' so are others and their struggles affect me.

Most of the folks on this forum are "fixers." But really, that's the problem here.

Sooo....it seems like you are often finding your business in a rough place, and that REALLY sucks. I can't imagine how you must feel when you post those countless threads. The newbies are nice people, but it bothers you that they might be hurting your future business. I feel really bad for you. Even though things will never get better because there seems to be some magical roadblock in the way of every bit of advice provided....we're all in this together and know that it's just really, really rough.

Newbies? Or "Illegals" or "ignorant"?

There have always been and will always be newbies. Today there is a flood - so they get $2k in business each...if there's 10 in town it's not a big deal..but 50 of them? It adds up.

Illegals - these folks are advertising, at bridal shows, etc. they don't have business licenses, insurance, pay sales tax and have not registered their business names (which is how you know all the former to be true..my state has a website where you can search registered names of businesses...'precious moments' is a name that needs registered...not hard to determine legal status) So they are working illegally...like drug dealer, the mafia or terrorists. Harsh words? Why? I've known a few drug dealers and people in the mob - nice people too. Just trying to provide for their families too. And they are doing it BY CHOICE. THey know they're breaking the law and willfully continue to do so. I have compassion - but just not for criminals.
Ignorant..they just don't know...like a kid running a lemonade stand where mom supplies everything so all the kids see is the sales dollars. A business with no costs...not possible. So the reality is Joe The Guy gave Joe Photobiz all the camera gear and computers and marketing money for free - no stock, no debt, no interest on the loan. Sweet deal for JoePhotobiz - like having rich parents set you up 'in business'.  So JoePhotobiz thinks he's making money - he can charge pennies on the dollar and get customers - not on merit, but on price alone. If here were a bigger biz, say walmart, selling at cost or below cost, he'd be in the news as trying to drive others out of business, unfair business practices, etc.  Smaller scale but same crime. So he gets a pass then?

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OP PenguinPhotoCo Veteran Member • Posts: 6,284
Re: What century do you live in?

photoreddi wrote:

PenguinPhotoCo wrote:

the implication with 'i guess your wife has veto power' is I have no balls or something. Whether that was the intent or not I don't read minds, but it was how I read their post.

No, the way I understood it given your usual failure to illuminate was that you agreed with her decision, not that you disagreed but weren't strong enough to do anything about it. You make too many unfounded assumptions.

No, typical of many suggestions these days, on the net or not. They're made off the cuff with no though as to the reality of what is being suggested.

"move"...ever moved? I mean, a business, family, sold houses, moved to a new state? yes, it's done every day but it's got costs. In time. Finding a new job is loads easier than starting a business from nothing. Yes, you have a portfolio and gear - but no customers. No idea of the market at all.

I've known 4 or 5 photogs that have done that. Most don't last 2 years- the business doesn't come back to the level it was at before.

CAN it be done? People win the lottery every day too. Odds are not good for either though.

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My wife and I have discussed moving, several times. She's not moving till the kids are out of HS. Period. She says i'm able to move- just she and the kdis aren't coming along.

So no, moving isn't an option.

I can understand why you wouldn't consider a complete, total move to be acceptable. You could also have considered a partial move, setting up a small studio in a more amenable town/city, returning to your home several days each month, the expenses of which could be covered by the expected revenue increases. But even if you did consider this, it would be like you to also shoot the idea down faster than you thought of it.

Again, it perhaps can work. Having had friends do that, or similar, it can be tough. A friend lived in boston..she got transferred to dallas - warmer, better economy, so they decided to go. Problem was he couldn't find a job there, and there house in boston wasn't selling (this was in 08/09/10). He kept one kid and lived in boston and she in texas with the other...for three years.

Don't know how your income works, but lets add an apartment and utilities to what you're paying now and some air flights back and forth every month or two. Feel like you've boarded the train to Easy Street do ya? Probably not, huh?

My brother in law wanted to move...they moved and she hated the new city. Divorced him and went back to maryland. He decided he wanted to live in a warm place all the time...so left GM. Took a 50% pay cut to do it.  Not everything works out all rosy and beautiful.

As a matter of fact...of ALL my friends AND my wife's friends from HS and college..not sure between us we have a happy story about picking up and moving for 'a better life'.

Wait..I know one guy. Wife cheated so he left her and moved to florida. 5 years ago had a girl, $500k house, great income as a musician. Talked to him last fall..he's living in a one room apt on the beach all alone with 1/4 the income he had 3 years ago. Is that an improvement? He says he's happy, but he's got that eternal happiness thing going on.

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It's just another example of people posting with the assumption I'm a retard or something. Of COURSE I considered moving. And considered adding video. and many other expansions.

You're just repeating the obvious. How could you possibly NOT have considered moving and at the same time tell us that your wife wouldn't agree to moving. What people assume, probably correctly, is that you're an old dog that finds excuses to refuse to try to learn new tricks.

Sorry, no. My wife was up for a promotion 4 or 5 years ago and if she didn't get it was going to quit - and was open to moving. At the time we had our oldest in school, 2nd grade maybe.

I've been to FLA and want to move south. Her brother is in jacksonville. My 'happy' friend is in daytona. I want to move and would go tomorrow. She knows this. But after weighing options decided to wait the youngest graduates HS. I've got 8 years here like it or not.
That she now has moved from employment to self-employment moving is again, an issue. She's in a profession that is licensed state by state...making a move harder yet.

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And people ASSUME my business is failing without the information to know that.

Whether true or not, it's not an unreasonable assumption considering how you so often imply that some dollars don't find their way into your bank account or food into your mouth because of all of those newbie terrorists that are taking business away from pro photographers.

Been around long, in the biz I mean? If so you'd know they're taking money out of your pocket too.
There isn't an unlimited market out there. I've never seen a line at a photo studio (like you do at gun shops).
Google up photogs in your area...you'll get 50, perhaps a lot more. They all get some customers. 10 years ago you'd have found 5. IN YOUR TOWN TOO.
Unless your kirk with a town that is growing 20% a decade so new customers are arriving daily for all these new photography businesses, where are they getting all their customers?
Without a stagnant (or declining in my case) population if you add more suppliers of a product what happens? Fewer customers for EVERYONE. More supply than demand and prices fall.

If you're not experiencing this than great for you. Should one day that happen to you...well, you'll understand perhaps the feeling that no matter how hard you try, how good you are, you can't get ahead.

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Don't seek advice from someone who is not where you want to be - CJ Lewis
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value

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OP PenguinPhotoCo Veteran Member • Posts: 6,284
Re: I answer your questions.

and if every one of those book buyers had to come, physically to you in NJ, what affect do you think that would have on sales?
Ok, if someone bought 100 books you could go to them. How far would you be willing to go for the profit on 100 books?

See, I do portraiture. I can't do that over the net (ok sally, get really close to your webscam and smile!) or use fedex (just send yourselves over here by fedex for your eSession, ok?).

Think of it like gasoline, wine or a steak. You can get it withing what, 1/2 hour of your house? an hour maybe? It's unlikely you'll drive 2 hours to buy gas or rent a video or get your hair cut.

yes, you've probably done it at some point in your life, but realistically you do your shopping close to home. I get a number of customers because of that fact alone.

I'm not saying it's impossible to travel to the customers. I did that when I got started - I went to starbucks to meet bridal prospects for 3+ years. Booking rate was maybe 50%. On the advice of a wedding photog I remodeled part of my basement into a meeting room. Changed NOTHING ELSE and booking rates went to 90%.

If I did the bridal shows in the city, an hour from me to there, each way, it wouldn't be a terrible task. But to get brides to come here from there? Not in this town you don't.

I moved from teh suburbs to the outer edge of the county after HS. 14 miles on the hiway. Old friends, coworkers ALL said... "You live WAY OUT by the airport?"...they emphasized the way out.
I'm now 30 miles farther out yet.

And having many photogrraphy friends in the city...its no easier or better there. The old 'grass is greener' thing. And i don't live in a ghetto but in one of the top 3 zipcodes for income and wealth in the county.

I probably just have to accept that the business is as large as it's likely to get. I bet the local mcdonalds does less business than the one in the city too. It is what it is.

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Don't seek advice from someone who is not where you want to be - CJ Lewis
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value

 PenguinPhotoCo's gear list:PenguinPhotoCo's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Canon EOS 5D Mark II Canon EOS 5D Mark III Canon EF 15mm f/2.8 Fisheye Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM +9 more
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