Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Started Mar 11, 2014 | Discussions
DtEW Senior Member • Posts: 2,722
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
2

Ramius wrote:

You think the A7 is a mid range camera?

I disagree. So what is Sonys top range camera?

The NEX are mid range cameras. Even though it doesnt have as high FPS as Canon 1D and has a more noisy shutter, its still a top range camera. Question is, are those two enough to pay that much more for Canon 1D? For sports photographers this is without question the camera to be using. But when you look at everything beneath this category, pretty much all cameras have around 5-6fps.

Part of the revolution here is that Sony has managed to make full frame more affordable with a more modern construction and mirrorless technology. It is absolutely a top range camera. And I would love to see it compared properly to other top range cameras, when it comes to visual quality and so on. Compared to DSLR competiors, it does have like you say, more intelligent technology, which evens up the odds, in my opinion.

And yes, Im ruling out luxury range cameras like Hasselblad, which is at an astronomically different level.

I don't have nor want a A7 nor A7R... but to insist that a product 1/4 of the price of another (A7 vs. Canon 1D X) must be comparable because of the absence of a better feature/application/price matched product is utterly asinine. By that logic, we must compare a GMC Sierra 1500 against a Lexus LFA because of where they sit in the product line, instead of recognizing the obvious fact that the GMC truck should be compared against Toyota trucks within the line. And insist that they must be comparable because GMC must've pulled off a revolution in manufacturing and production technologies to justify the price mismatch... all to justify labeling the "revolution" a failure by this nonsense framing.

(To spell it out, the A7 is better comparable to the price-comparable Canon 6D, for which it does some things better, worse, and the same.)

User ignored.

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stevo23 Forum Pro • Posts: 20,890
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Ramius wrote:

Thus far, Sony has only released four lenses for the A7 cameras. And they have the nerve to present the camera at the Photography Show with APS-C mounted lenses: http://www.dpreview.com/news/2014/03/06/the-photography-show-2014-tidbits-from-the-show-floor/10

Is this not a clear indication that the selection of FE optics is too limited? When they should have been presenting new FE lenses, they must instead present the camera with the newest in crop lenses instead. To me, this almost admitting that despite the camera being good, there is a lack of support for it.

The A7 still feels new. But it was actually released in november last year. Thats nearly five months ago. And despite the thing selling out like hot cakes, no third party lens manufacturer has announced anything for the FE mount.

Should they not have done so by now? I think its a bit wierd that big brand Sony is announcing such a good, expensive and revolutionary camera, but yet they have no cooperation with brands like Sigma, Tamron or Voigtlander to offer more choices in the FE-line.

This is a professional grade camera, and professionals need options. There has been several photography expos, shows and events they could have used to present FE optics on, but still they have not. How long is it going to take?

They've shared a time line - it's not totally sanctioned or official, but the next lens is a 70-200, yes? I agree they should be quicker with releases, but I'm happy.

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stevo23 Forum Pro • Posts: 20,890
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
1

Ramius wrote:

JurijTurnsek wrote:

A large user base of APS-C cameras on one side and an emerging user base for FF cameras. How do you please both at the same time? You can't expect Sony to dish out new lenses so fast, because Sony is after quality.

Sony posted the roadmap and you all knew what you bought into. Now deal with it. You can either be happy with what you got or bitch about what you knew was not coming anyway.

That roadmap turned out to be false. It told us that the 24-70mm would launch with the camera.

Road maps change all the time - it was probably accurate when it came out. Since then, we've seen a few changes to it.

But remember that this roadmap is only for their own lenses. Im making this thread about the whole FE range. Where other manufacturers should be offering lenses too. If you look at other sides of the consumer electronics business - Sony does not launch a new Playstation without communicating with third party studios and letting them start working on games before release. I wish they would have done so with this camera and and lenses as well.

I know what you're saying and I'd love to see a Tamron 90 in FE mount that autofocuses! But truly, lack of lenses from Tamron and Sigma isn't Sony's concern - it's a conflict of interest to them. A camera system is never launched and created with 3rd party lenses in mind. So no, Sony didn't wait for or ask for Tamron's or Sigma's cooperation before they launched. I knew this going in and I still bought the camera.

I did hear or see a comment somewhere to the effect that Zeiss will create some FE lenses in their manual focus format - similar to the ZM series.

I'm with you - I'd love to see some more lenses soon. But look at it this way - Sony has some decent options while we wait. We can adapt the A mount lenses and they seem to work well. The distance between the A mount prime and an FE mount version is very short. There are three primes in that series that are 2nd to none, so I hope those get FE'd soon.

But also, you can mount a whole universe of lenses on that camera and they do very well. (Yes, there are a few that don't work well...) I'm actually thrilled that I can go out and buy an older classic lens - be it a Leica screw or bayonet mount or a Pentax or Canon FD. All of these things are possible with this camera. Can't easily adapt Leica or Canon FD to my Nikon.

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OP Ramius Forum Member • Posts: 77
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Im not the only one making this comparison. Have a look: http://www.cameracomparisonreview.com/2013/11/24/sony-a7-vs-canon-1d-x/

It was a legitimate question for them to conduct a comparison, so cant have been so stupid after all then.

But of course, the 1D outperforms in most aspects. Except video though, which is a much bigger salespoint for me than high FPS.

blue_skies
blue_skies Forum Pro • Posts: 11,743
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
2

Ramius wrote:

If its very clear to you that something has happened that has not happened. I dont need to read the rest of your reply. I was one of the first who got the A7 in november last year and followed it all the way from the press release. Thank you.

So you followed the very active threads with over 300 to 400 pages on the FM and Leica forums each discussing lenses and lens options on the A7 and A7r back then? And what about the Nikon and Sony-A-mount FF users that adapted their favorite lenses with stellar results?

And if you purchased the A7 because of future FE lens options, well, then you bought something that does not exist yet. Whining about it does not change that. A roadmap is well, a roadmap. It requires something like time and patience....

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Cheers,
Henry

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nostatic Regular Member • Posts: 185
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
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Buying a product that doesn't have a feature that you *need* now with an expectation and/or hope that it will come "soon" is a mistake.

Buying a product that doesn't have a feature that you *want* now with an expectation and/or hope that it will come "soon" and then complaining about it is impatience.

quezra Veteran Member • Posts: 3,915
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
2

Ramius wrote:

Then I guess you´re gonna have to question me everything you can. This camera is aimed at professional photographers because of its specifications.

Its specifications and price put it firmly in the entry-level FF like D600/6D. We know for certain that the features are inferior to the A99 and D800 etc, which aren't even in the top-of-the-line league of performers like 1DX and D4S. Your misconception is the problem, not Sony's first attempt at a mirrorless FF camera. Maybe the 'pro' mirrorless FF will come out in a year or two when the technology is mature. But as it stands, this sits in the entry-level category - just look at the price to see who Sony sees as its natural competitors.

Its the best camera Sony makes, and its high visual quality and customization options is what caters to those who do photography for a living. Thats what makes it a professional grade camera. And the price reflects it too. What amateur is spending this kind of money on cameras?

It's not the best camera Sony makes, it's the first camera Sony has attempted in the MILC FF segment. And this amateur spent as much money on this camera as amateurs 5 years ago spent on APS-C DSLRs which were similar in price give or take inflation. There are amateurs buying cameras like OMDs and GH3/4s and X-T1s and 6Ds and D610s which are all in a similar price league. Professionals actually typically look at the system, not a single body, when making buying decisions. How you managed, as a 'pro', to buy into a system without actually looking at the system first strikes me as blunderingly naive or inexperienced.

Why would amateurs possibly need full format? Why would they need such high capacity camera, when they will never have to use it to the fullest extent? Infact, many have argued in this very thread that one of the sales point of the camera is to use legacy lenses. And who else have alot of legacy lenses but professional photographers?

I am an amateur. I do it because I can. I bought all my legacy lenses because I enjoy using them - they stopped making most of them when I was still a kid. So?

The no compromised build of this camera is what makes it a professional grade camera. The cameras professional photographers use are what makes them professional grade. And its usually cameras like Nikon D800, Canon 1d, 5D mark 3, and now A7 is slowly taking its rightful place among this lineup.

It is compromised a lot. For one, it's not very well weather sealed. For another, it's not got a foolproof AF. For another, it's a first attempt (and a darn good one but a first attempt nonetheless). How long have you been a 'professional'? What was your previous system and how could it not have occurred to you to think about what your professional needs were when buying the camera? And how on earth did a 'pro' think a superzoom lens from a third party maker would in any way be suitable for pro work?  And why the obsession about costs if you're a professional?  Most pros I know would earn back the 24-70 in two or three gigs which is nothing if they're any good.

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captura Forum Pro • Posts: 26,979
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Ramius wrote:

If its very clear to you that something has happened that has not happened. I dont need to read the rest of your reply. I was one of the first who got the A7 in november last year and followed it all the way from the press release. Thank you.

Say what? - "If its very clear to you that something has happened that has not happened."

This kind of obscurity and lack of respect for the hardest-working regular participants on this forum perhaps explains your regular non-participation. Carry on as you were, but please refine your reading and comprehension skills.

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captura Forum Pro • Posts: 26,979
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Ramius wrote:

You think the A7 is a mid range camera?

I disagree. So what is Sonys top range camera?

The NEX are mid range cameras. Even though it doesnt have as high FPS as Canon 1D and has a more noisy shutter, its still a top range camera. Question is, are those two enough to pay that much more for Canon 1D? For sports photographers this is without question the camera to be using. But when you look at everything beneath this category, pretty much all cameras have around 5-6fps.

Part of the revolution here is that Sony has managed to make full frame more affordable with a more modern construction and mirrorless technology. It is absolutely a top range camera. And I would love to see it compared properly to other top range cameras, when it comes to visual quality and so on. Compared to DSLR competiors, it does have like you say, more intelligent technology, which evens up the odds, in my opinion.

And yes, Im ruling out luxury range cameras like Hasselblad, which is at an astronomically different level.

I see that you are a newbie so just to suggest that you may wish to take advantage of  better learn-to-troll opportunities elsewhere.

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OP Ramius Forum Member • Posts: 77
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Hardest working forum members lol. You want some kind of reward for being on a forum? Please.

Chad Hardy
Chad Hardy Senior Member • Posts: 1,192
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
1

Sometimes revolutionary products take a bit of time to shift the industry.  You should give Sony a break...they released 2 primes that are just about the best in the world (35 and 55mm FE).  The 2470 FE is also as good as it gets for f4 zooms of this focal range.  This coupled with adapter based shooting of any A mount FF lens should be enough for anyone.

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OP Ramius Forum Member • Posts: 77
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

In what country do you live ,where photography is so handsomely rewarded that you have no limits to the ammount of money you can spend? Buying the best lenses month after month? 
Its certainly not like that here. And I´ve had to deal with far less for a long time. Using lenses such as Sigma 70-300mm to get the job done.

robbinsbox Contributing Member • Posts: 640
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
1

hey ramius

came across this roadmap yesterday. it was on thoms sansmirror website. it looks good, ....if.... they come out on schedule and at a reasonable cost. particularly looking forward  the 85mm (under £700 pls Sony)

the more pressure on sony the better. loved my sony body but from my perspective no portrait lens, average primes or v expensive zeiss meant i sold.

link is.... http://www.sansmirror.com/lenses/lens-database/sony-nex-lenses/

yours

robbinsbox

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quezra Veteran Member • Posts: 3,915
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Ramius wrote:

In what country do you live ,where photography is so handsomely rewarded that you have no limits to the ammount of money you can spend? Buying the best lenses month after month?
Its certainly not like that here. And I´ve had to deal with far less for a long time. Using lenses such as Sigma 70-300mm to get the job done.

Er one lens should last you like a few years or more?  Who said anything about changing lenses every few months?  You know zooms are supposed to cover a bunch of focal lengths?  I noticed you dodged every single question actually asked, which suggests your background story is entirely made up.  Trolls tend to avoid detail because they always get caught out.  I see your story is barely hanging together at this point.

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OP Ramius Forum Member • Posts: 77
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Nothing below 20mm. Pretty much kills the hope of a good wide angle.

Interesting link though. Thanks.

Krich13 Contributing Member • Posts: 776
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
2

Mel Snyder wrote:

quezra wrote:

How soon would you expect third party makers to climb aboard a new mount? They need to gauge public reception before they start designing lenses. So there will definitely be a time lag before production and Sigma have already said they'd be interested but its not their current priority - and if there's no great demand, they may surmise it's just not worth it. To this day, there are no AF third party lenses for EOS-M, Nikon 1, Fuji X and Samsung NX. Samyang lenses are SLR-registration lenses with extensions for mirrorless and fully manual, and even I don't think they've made adapted lenses for those mounts. They have said they're looking to make AF E-mount lenses though. Sigma only recycled lens designs that it was planning to stick onto its DP cameras anyway, and even then they didn't bother to add onto FujiX, EOS-M or Samsung NX, just stuck with m4/3 and Sony.

As for Sony's own rollout, the 5 original lenses are just about all out (last one coming), and 5 more should be announced this year and 5 more in 2015. So that gives them 8 months to announce the next batch. I don't think I've ever seen a system launch as ambitious as Sony's in fact. Fuji had just 3 primes at launch before it came out with a zoom. Panasonic came out with 2 zooms, NEX with a zoom and a prime, etc.

This guy is just a troll. He wants a 70-200 f4 AF/OSS lens that's cheaper than $1500, with a 24-70 f4 selling for $1200?

Well, it should not sell for $1200 to begin with, not in the world where Tamron 28-75 f/2.8 was introduced at $400. Introduced 6 years ago (and computer-aided lens design and aspheric lens molding technologies progressed a lot since then) a lens full stop faster was selling three times cheaper despite the limitations of long registration distance (don't feed me crap about long reg. distance being an advantage -- I am a professional optical engineer) while being almost as light (500 grams vs 430 g).

robbinsbox Contributing Member • Posts: 640
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
1
  • 16-35mm f/4 Zeiss OSS (2014)

expect megabucks tho, figuratively and literally:)

I read somewhere that Samyang were going to make af FE lens. I am sure next year everything will be clearer. If not then we can all go off to whoever makes the next badass FF and wait again.

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EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
1

Nothing below 20mm. Pretty much kills the hope of a good wide angle.

Interesting link though. Thanks.

You should have known that there will be no ultra wide zoom among the first five lenses when the roadmap was announced and camera launched. It wasn't a secret.

The UWA zoom happens to be a part of next five (this year). But of all cameras, a7/7r would be the last I would sit and complain about lack of UWA lens. Buy a Sigma 12-24 and it will work on it. Buy Rokinon 14/2.8 and it will work on it. As a professional, you should know how to best put the capable body to use while being aware of what has been announced.

As an amateur, I do.

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Absolutic
Absolutic Veteran Member • Posts: 5,517
85 and 135
2

The 2 lenses that I am waiting for are the 85/1.4 Zeiss and 135/1.8 Zeiss renderings in FE form.  I'd be happy with a reduced weight and price 85/1.8 and 135/2 as well.   I probably could even live with even lighter and cheaper 85/2 and 135/2.8.

Of course I can buy these Today plus LA-EA4 adapter.  But it will 1) cost me $3500, 2) defeat the purpose of a small portable camera.   On the other hand I get Phase AF which I am missing on my A7r with these two lenses.

But ideally for me, something like 21, 35, 55, 85 and 135   (21 is least pressing as 35 is wide enough for me) would be ideal.  I shoot mostly people.

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blue_skies
blue_skies Forum Pro • Posts: 11,743
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
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Ramius wrote:

Im very happy with my purchase so far. But disappointed by the lack of options to it.

Thank you? I dont think your in this discussion for anything else than to feel good about yourself and justify your purchase. The question I´m asking is simple, are you happy with the FE lineup or not, just say "yes" and move along

So you are happily disappointed?

I think that you could save yourself and all of us a lot of trouble by simply selling your gear, assuming that you have any...

Why don't you comment on your A7 experience thus far? Focus on what it does, rather on what it doesn't?

You being unhappy about the FE lineup is a non-event...

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Henry

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