Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Started Mar 11, 2014 | Discussions
Seeky Senior Member • Posts: 1,065
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Ramius, can you elaborate on your experience with the A7 and FE 35? I'm very interested how you dealt with it.

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José B
José B Forum Pro • Posts: 18,958
Can't afford a BMW/Benz/Audi but the Zeiss 135/2 OSS in '15 is mine!!!
1

José B wrote:

Ramius wrote:

Thus far, Sony has only released four lenses for the A7 cameras. And they have the nerve to present the camera at the Photography Show with APS-C mounted lenses: http://www.dpreview.com/news/2014/03/06/the-photography-show-2014-tidbits-from-the-show-floor/10

Is this not a clear indication that the selection of FE optics is too limited? When they should have been presenting new FE lenses, they must instead present the camera with the newest in crop lenses instead. To me, this almost admitting that despite the camera being good, there is a lack of support for it.

The A7 still feels new. But it was actually released in november last year. Thats nearly five months ago. And despite the thing selling out like hot cakes, no third party lens manufacturer has announced anything for the FE mount.

Should they not have done so by now? I think its a bit wierd that big brand Sony is announcing such a good, expensive and revolutionary camera, but yet they have no cooperation with brands like Sigma, Tamron or Voigtlander to offer more choices in the FE-line.

This is a professional grade camera, and professionals need options. There has been several photography expos, shows and events they could have used to present FE optics on, but still they have not. How long is it going to take?

I'm disappointed that there is lack of 24-105/4 OSS, for me the Zeiss 24-70/4 is too short for full frame. I like a longer standard zoom lens so I can do heads and shoulders portraits with it. However, Sony gave us an excellent zoom lens albeit in a 1.5 cropper in the Zeiss 16-70/4. Thus, along with my either APS-C Zeiss and Sony primes, it was an easy call to stay with the NEX line.

I'm looking forward though to owning the Zeiss 135/2 OSS once it gets released in '15. At that time, I can decide whether to sell all of my Canon DSLR system in favor of Sony full-frame. I'll also be in the lookout for the Zeiss 85/1.8 OSS later this year. This is according to the Sony FE lens roadmap but in the meantime will enjoy my NEX system.

can't wait to have that classic argument: 85/1.8 OSS or 135/2

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OP Ramius Forum Member • Posts: 77
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
1

Here is the roadmap. As you can see, both the 24-70mm and tele lens were supposed to launch  in 2013. None of them did.

Godfrey Forum Pro • Posts: 29,436
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Ramius wrote:

Its perhaps the best camera on the market. Only surpassed by Canon 1D and a few others. All full frame cameras are professional grade. Its the biggest image sensor you get, and given the price of these, you think the A7 is aimed at amateurs?

There are so many features of these cameras that are aimed at professionals, aside from its impressive visual quality. Isf your definition of "pro" means Hasselblad and Phase One - and pretty much nothing you can get in normal photo stores? In that case, I guess we disagree.

Im a professional photographer, and thats why I chose this camera. Just sayin.

Sony's scheme for raw files is the first thing that makes the A7 less of a pro camera and more of an amateur camera. All pro digital cameras have the ability to output lossless raw files. Period.

Not all "professional grade" cameras are FF or larger. The Canon 1D is a pro camera with 1.3x crop sensor, so are the Olympus E-1, E-3, E-5, and E-M1 with FourThirds format sensors. The Nikon D2x, D3, and D4 are all pro grade cameras with two different format size sensors.

Et cetera. A professional photographer does not need to buy a "professional grade" camera to get the job done; in fact, MOST of the professional photographers I know do not. Being a professional photographer and what constitutes a "professional grade" camera are two entirely different things. If you don't understand that, I have to question your understanding of the business of being a professional photographer and how it differs from camera technology.

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cosmonaut
cosmonaut Senior Member • Posts: 2,223
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Its not just Sony that's behind I have been on a wait list for the Tamron 150-600mm for weeks. I think sales across the board are up and the new lenses being Zeiss can slow it down even more. Manufacturing  is behind  it seems. Times are good.

www.gregmccary.com

Godfrey Forum Pro • Posts: 29,436
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
2

No sensible professional photographer I know of buys equipment based upon what might be delivered soon, regardless of what a manufacturer announces as a road map. Any pro photographer worth the label buys based on currently available equipment that does the job to make an income.

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EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
1

Here is the roadmap. As you can see, both the 24-70mm and tele lens were supposed to launch  in 2013. None of them did.

But if you look at the roadmap closely, you will discover a few issues with your conclusions:
-24-70 was expected not at launch but after the launch.
-Sure there was a delay by a month or so in delivery but big deal?
-Availability of 70-200 clearly shows early 2014 (not 2013)

So aside from a month or so delay in delivery of 24-70 for whatever reason, your issues are unwarranted.

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OP Ramius Forum Member • Posts: 77
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
1

Then I guess you´re gonna have to question me everything you can. This camera is aimed at professional photographers because of its specifications. Its the best camera Sony makes, and its high visual quality and customization options is what caters to those who do photography for a living. Thats what makes it a professional grade camera. And the price reflects it too. What amateur is spending this kind of money on cameras?

Why would amateurs possibly need full format? Why would they need such high capacity camera, when they will never have to use it to the fullest extent? Infact, many have argued in this very thread that one of the sales point of the camera is to use legacy lenses. And who else have alot of legacy lenses but professional photographers?

The no compromised build of this camera is what makes it a professional grade camera. The cameras professional photographers use are what makes them professional grade. And its usually cameras like Nikon D800, Canon 1d, 5D mark 3, and now A7 is slowly taking its rightful place among this lineup.

OP Ramius Forum Member • Posts: 77
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
1

So you dont see 90% of that 200mm occypying the 2013 column there? Now we are even way past "Early 2014". Its march. Winter is over, spring has begun, the lens is still not available.

The 24-70mm was not available untill late february. That chart says it was supposed to be available in december. Considering the camera launched in november. Thats possible a whole three months.

It also says the 55mm and 35mm would be available at the same time. Which also was not true.

EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

So you dont see 90% of that 200mm occypying the 2013 column there? Now we are even way past "Early 2014". Its march. Winter is over, spring has begun, the lens is still not available.

The 24-70mm was not available untill late february. That chart says it was supposed to be available in december. Considering the camera launched in november. Thats possible a whole three months.

It also says the 55mm and 35mm would be available at the same time. Which also was not true.

Look at the golden color line used for G lens... it starts in 2014 not 2013. Blue is for Sony Zeiss lenses and speaking of which, only 28-70 leads all lenses in launch order but FE 35 was also made available very shortly after and FE 55 shortly after that. Only 24-70 has seen a delay but complaining about 1-2 months is stretching it. I see people waiting endlessly for Sigma to start delivering 18-35 on A-mount... for months now. This is not uncommon. There are times when something is shipped sooner than people expect, sometimes later.

These are estimates.

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OP Ramius Forum Member • Posts: 77
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

My main complaint is not about Sonys roadmap. Its how long it takes for everyone else than Sony to join the game. I honestly don´t believe it takes Sigma that long to construct a new lens. I think its more of a marketing choice, like many have said here.

Given the fact that nobody has even announced anything within the FE range, makes me wonder if theres any FE lenses coming at all this year from other than Zeiss/Sony.

And just on a sidenote:

To me these are the traits that are far more than an amateur photographer needs, and that shows the A7/A7R are pro cameras:

- Full format

- External flash mount

- Weather sealed magnesium construction

- High ISO capability

- Microphone output

- Both LCD screen and electronic viewfinder.

- Manual dials for full control

- Heavy customization features

- Prime lenses the norm

- Vertical battery grip at launch

- HDMI output

I could go on. But these are stuff the professional photographers, such as myself, actually need and use on a regular basis. That amateur photographers perhaps dont ever use or need. I mean, people are making photo albums with pictures from their iPhones these days. Even the NEX is advanced for amateurs.

EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

My main complaint is not about Sonys roadmap. Its how long it takes for everyone else than Sony to join the game. I honestly don´t believe it takes Sigma that long to construct a new lens. I think its more of a marketing choice, like many have said here.

Given the fact that nobody has even announced anything within the FE range, makes me wonder if theres any FE lenses coming at all this year from other than Zeiss/Sony.

And just on a sidenote:

To me these are the traits that are far more than an amateur photographer needs, and that shows the A7/A7R are pro cameras:

- Full format

- External flash mount

- Weather sealed magnesium construction

- High ISO capability

- Microphone output

- Both LCD screen and electronic viewfinder.

- Manual dials for full control

- Heavy customization features

- Prime lenses the norm

- Vertical battery grip at launch

- HDMI output

I could go on. But these are stuff the professional photographers, such as myself, actually need and use on a regular basis. That amateur photographers perhaps dont ever use or need. I mean, people are making photo albums with pictures from their iPhones these days. Even the NEX is advanced for amateurs.

Your OP has two aspects: issues with Sony for not producing lenses faster than the road map. And, for third party not named Zeiss (and the forgotten, Samyang) from developing lenss for a system barely five months old.

Lens development takes time. Even Zeiss needs a year to deliver FE lenses (expected Fall 2014). Sigma has taken (now months) to produce 18-35/1.8 for A-mount and has produced only three cheap lenses for E bodies which are very popular.

I think we should be realistic with developments, especially considering the age of the system and its still limited market at this time. Looking for ultra wide and superwide solutions for less? Samyang is getting those out (14/2.8 and 24/1.4). Also, 35/1.4 and 85/1.4.

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Godfrey Forum Pro • Posts: 29,436
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
2

Your questions indicate a significant lack of knowledge and understanding.

MOST photographers are amateurs. I know amateurs who dutifully carry their 8x10 view cameras, their Hasselblads, their Leicas, their Nikons, etc, into the field to produce superb photographic work. Many amateurs pay thousands of dollars for the best lenses, the best tripods, the best cameras, etc, to do their love: making great photographs. They do this with their discretionary income.

Few professionals have the money to spend on such stuff. They buy equipment which they need to make a living. Every dollar counts. They buy cameras build to take a beating, both because they will be in constant use and if they do work that requires such ruggedness (like sports, wildlife, motor racing, war documentary, news, etc.).

The Sony A7 is a relatively lightly built, inexpensive camera with a large sensor, great image quality, mediocre responsiveness, and some significant limitations (like the shutter noise, the shutter vibration, the lack of native lenses, etc). To call it a "professional grade" camera demonstrates a thorough lack of understanding. Note that, as I said before, many cameras are capable of producing professional quality images that are most decidedly NOT "professional grade" cameras.

Learn a little bit about photography and the business of being a professional photographer before you call yourself one.

And that's the last I'll comment on this. I see no point to wasting time talking with someone who has such limited understanding of what they're making pronouncements about.

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OP Ramius Forum Member • Posts: 77
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Ok, lens development take time? So how come Zeiss has four lenses out already?

People have praised them for being fast in this very thread because of this. I´m not one of them. But if Zeiss/Sony can produce 4-5 lenses in five months. Sigma, Tamron, Voigtlander all should be able to put out atleast one.

Now I´m not expecting that these brands release a lens in the first five months of the camera. But atleast this year. And what worries me, like I´ve said before now, that nothing is even annoubced. And so far, it doesnt seem anything else is coming.

EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Ok, lens development take time? So how come Zeiss has four lenses out already?

People have praised them for being fast in this very thread because of this. I´m not one of them. But if Zeiss/Sony can produce 4-5 lenses in five months. Sigma, Tamron, Voigtlander all should be able to put out atleast one.

Now I´m not expecting that these brands release a lens in the first five months of the camera. But atleast this year. And what worries me, like I´ve said before now, that nothing is even annoubced. And so far, it doesnt seem anything else is coming.

Sony Zeiss lens development didn't have to be until after the camera announcement. Third party development follows launch starting with the premise whether the market is large enough yet.

Samyang announced FE lens development on the same day Sony announced a7/7r. In case of Samyang, the formula was simple, to many, too simple.

Zeiss has also announced plans to launch FE lenses (may be FF Touit line) but will take almost a year to bring out the first lenses (Fall 2014).

Sigma hasn't done much in the mirrorless world.

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OP Ramius Forum Member • Posts: 77
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
1

You are the one who lacks understanding here.

A professional is someone who makes a living out of a profession. If you earn money taking pictures, you are a professional photographer. Now there are certain standards brought into the culture of the profession of photography. And the A7 fulfills them all.

An amateur photographer is someone who is doing it for a hobby. Where he is not required to produce photos for an employer/customer. Another word I prefer more is a hobby photographer, who can be more highly skilled than an amateur, but still not a professional photographer. If you want further proof of the definiton of professional, please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional

Myself am both educated in photography (formal training) and I make a living out of using my camera. IThat makes me a professional photographer. I´m not bragging but speaking purely objective here. Infact, I was just out on a job a few hours ago after starting this thread. That also makes the camera I use, a professional tool. And even though I could deliver good results with a small point and shoot camera, it would not allow me to produce the same kind of results I am used to in the job.

If you use the word professional to somehow indicate a high skill, (which is defined by taste). That is the wrong use of the word.

blue_skies
blue_skies Forum Pro • Posts: 11,767
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
4

Ramius wrote:

Thus far, Sony has only released four lenses for the A7 cameras. And they have the nerve to present the camera at the Photography Show with APS-C mounted lenses: http://www.dpreview.com/news/2014/03/06/the-photography-show-2014-tidbits-from-the-show-floor/10

Is this not a clear indication that the selection of FE optics is too limited? When they should have been presenting new FE lenses, they must instead present the camera with the newest in crop lenses instead. To me, this almost admitting that despite the camera being good, there is a lack of support for it.

The A7 still feels new. But it was actually released in november last year. Thats nearly five months ago. And despite the thing selling out like hot cakes, no third party lens manufacturer has announced anything for the FE mount.

Should they not have done so by now? I think its a bit wierd that big brand Sony is announcing such a good, expensive and revolutionary camera, but yet they have no cooperation with brands like Sigma, Tamron or Voigtlander to offer more choices in the FE-line.

This is a professional grade camera, and professionals need options. There has been several photography expos, shows and events they could have used to present FE optics on, but still they have not. How long is it going to take?

Actually, I would rather argue the opposite. It is very clear that you are new to the format. If you had been present during all the buildup of excitement after rumors, speculation, and the announcement as to which lenses would and would not work with either A7 and A7r, you would not pose such a question.

As is, the A7/r adapt to more lenses than any other digital FF camera, including the only other mirrorless mount, the Leica. The majority of such lenses have done extremely well - read up on IQ on both A7 and A7r, e.g. in comparison to the Canon and Nikon FF cameras. Only WA RF lenses pose (expectedly so) some issues.

Also, the A7/r both adapt to many lenses with intelligent adapters, carrying EXIF, AE and AF. Not the fastest AF, sure, but workable.

Professionals, who already have gear, have plenty of lenses that they can use on these new camera bodies. They are not waiting for a lens.

Also, Sony did something very right with the A7r - the FE35 and FE55 is pretty near the top in their class, and got great accolades. This is impressive by itself. There is controversy on the zoom lenses, but they are in fact pretty decent, but do need SW compensation.

Sony has also put out a roadmap, and this promises some very decent lenses. The rumors being true or not, there is talk about a FE16-35 and a fast FE85 (likely with OSS). Per the roadmap, Sony will release 5(!) FE lenses each year. That is quite a bit.

If you are in a group that only wants mature systems, there are great deals going on now on used Canikon professional gear.

But if you are an early adopter, and can make the best out of your current, and future, equipment, the A7/r are a joy to work with.

Time will go fast, each year the lens pool will increase.

Fwiw, no professional or semi professional system has ever launched with a full lens assortment. Asking for this is asking for the moon... plus you will never see any new system any more. Launching a system like the A7/r and seeing such a rapid adoption rate as is the case is quite an enormous achievement, especially in a down economy.

Sigma, Tamron, Zeiss, Samyang and several others have all signed up for the E-mount as third party lens manufacturers. Zeiss has announced a specific program to support FE with manual (M type) lenses.

Some lenses are merely adaptions (A to E mount requires a longer baffle), other lenses are E mount specific.

Oh, in case you wonder, E and FE mount are the same. FE is a nickname for full-frame FOV, as E-mount lenses are APS-C.

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Cheers,
Henry

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OP Ramius Forum Member • Posts: 77
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

If its very clear to you that something has happened that has not happened. I dont need to read the rest of your reply. I was one of the first who got the A7 in november last year and followed it all the way from the press release. Thank you.

Jefenator
Jefenator Senior Member • Posts: 2,866
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Camley wrote:

Not me Ramius. I am delighted with the 35 and 55 Zeiss lenses. I would rather have a few great lenses than dozens of average ones.

Relax and don't be so angry. Other native FE lenses are coming, and in the meantime try out some non-native lenses and go and take some photographs.

Bingo.

At the moment, this system is not about massive variety or groundbreaking speed - it is about IQ. Next best thing to medium format in a much more manageable package.

If you look at current medium format lens systems, the selection is not so impressive. The IQ is, and so is the size & cost. I personally can't manage a Leica S2, but the Sony A7/r is something I can pay for, then take on a long hike.

Sure, the native EF selection still lags but the first two primes out are the first two I'd want. Both are awesome performers, priced very competitively against comparable Leica or Zeiss alternatives. More like that please, Sony - I can wait another year give or take.

Actually, to be honest, I haven't even gotten around to the native system yet - too busy enjoying my vintage Leitz, Nikkor, Canon, Minolta & Olympus lenses! (If someone sincerely can't manage the heft of an A7 with a legacy lens on an adapter, full-frame will probably never be for him/her.)

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OP Ramius Forum Member • Posts: 77
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

You think the A7 is a mid range camera?

I disagree. So what is Sonys top range camera?

The NEX are mid range cameras. Even though it doesnt have as high FPS as Canon 1D and has a more noisy shutter, its still a top range camera. Question is, are those two enough to pay that much more for Canon 1D? For sports photographers this is without question the camera to be using. But when you look at everything beneath this category, pretty much all cameras have around 5-6fps.

Part of the revolution here is that Sony has managed to make full frame more affordable with a more modern construction and mirrorless technology. It is absolutely a top range camera. And I would love to see it compared properly to other top range cameras, when it comes to visual quality and so on. Compared to DSLR competiors, it does have like you say, more intelligent technology, which evens up the odds, in my opinion.

And yes, Im ruling out luxury range cameras like Hasselblad, which is at an astronomically different level.

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