Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Started Mar 11, 2014 | Discussions
CEfan Regular Member • Posts: 126
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Infact, Sony already does this with other products, like their Playstation.

Not quite. Sony gets a license fee for every game produced, and also get to determine IF you get a license at all. This adds up to big bucks.

It is my understanding that the e mount is license free. Sony has no incentive to promote sales of someone else's lenses.

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tn1krr Senior Member • Posts: 1,280
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Ramius wrote:

Bribed them? So you think third party support for your product is a negative thing?

No, but since market is initially small there is not business in it for 3rd parties and they want to cover the development costs ASAP. "Bribe" is just a term I chose for when a big company wants a small one to do something that is not immediately a big money bringer. How do you think some games are initially exclusive to PS or Xbox? Someone makes it worth it for game developers.

If anything, that makes the road to success and even shorter. I think your thinking is very proprietary and outdated. The more support, the better. How can you possibly argue against this? Infact, Sony already does this with other products, like their Playstation.

I disagree. The market is initially too small to support Sigma or Tamron making lenses without extra incentives and Sony wants to sell lenses too.

And judging by the responses here, I see there are alot of hobby photographers here who doesnt quite understand how professional photography works. Its good with adapters and and the option of using legacy lenses.

The Sony LA-EA4 adapter I mentioned brings DSLR level AF/tracking to these bodies, something they currently do not not have. It is a Sony adapter can take Sonys latest and fastest SSM2 DSLR lenses. I'm not talking legacy here. PDAF AF, exif, fast apertures. Happen to have a 85/1.4 Zeiss for my A7R with the La-EA4. Autofocuses like champ and is plenty fast.

But that stuff is completely out of the question for many professionals. Taking black and white pictures of cathedrals with your Leica lenses in your hollidays is one thing. But for people working with their cameras you need full cooperation between your lens and camera, complete autofocus, exif data and all.

Again, what you are saying have nothing to with what I suggested. Want a F/2.8 standard zoom on A7R? Get the Sony 24-70/2.8 + LA-EA4 and you have that; AF, exif, fast apertures. Several high-end professionals do this already for focal lengths that have no native FE lenses: Frank Doorhof, Brian Smith...

Compactness is not the only advantage of the A7 cameras. There are many other more important reasons for professional photographers to buy these.

And again, if you are willing/need to get bigger lenses get the LA-EA4 + SSM2 lenses: fastest AF you can have, exif...

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OP Ramius Forum Member • Posts: 77
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
1

Im very happy with my  purchase so far. But disappointed by the lack of options to it.

Thank you? I dont think your in this discussion for anything else than to feel good about yourself and justify your purchase. The question I´m asking is simple, are you happy with the FE lineup or not, just say "yes" and move along

Mel Snyder
Mel Snyder Veteran Member • Posts: 4,088
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
1

Ramius wrote:

Bribed them? So you think third party support for your product is a negative thing?

If anything, that makes the road to success and even shorter. I think your thinking is very proprietary and outdated. The more support, the better. How can you possibly argue against this? Infact, Sony already does this with other products, like their Playstation.

And judging by the responses here, I see there are alot of hobby photographers here who doesnt quite understand how professional photography works. Its good with adapters and and the option of using legacy lenses.

But that stuff is completely out of the question for many professionals. Taking black and white pictures of cathedrals with your Leica lenses in your hollidays is one thing. But for people working with their cameras you need full cooperation between your lens and camera, complete autofocus, exif data and all.

Compactness is not the only advantage of the A7 cameras. There are many other more important reasons for professional photographers to buy these.

People who make their living from photography aren't looking for cheap gear - only the best. We can't afford to bet our business on cheap gear. That's the first evidence you're grandstanding. Our gear is a business expense - a tax write off. We can pay for an A7/r the first day we use it with a single assignment - and if we're going full frame A7/r completely, we need at least two bodies.

I haven't made that decision yet, so I still have my twin Nikon APS-C systems - I can't fly across the USA with only a single body to a hospital with patients permissioned for a video and NOT have a backup. My A7 will be an extra camera for a year until I know what can't be known less than 6 months after launch - how dependable is the A7/r?

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Camley Senior Member • Posts: 1,778
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
2

Not me Ramius. I am delighted with the 35 and 55 Zeiss lenses. I would rather have a few great lenses than dozens of average ones.

Relax and don't be so angry. Other native FE lenses are coming, and in the meantime try out some non-native lenses and go and take some photographs.

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quezra Veteran Member • Posts: 3,915
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
1

Ramius wrote:

And judging by the responses here, I see there are alot of hobby photographers here who doesnt quite understand how professional photography works. Its good with adapters and and the option of using legacy lenses.

But that stuff is completely out of the question for many professionals. Taking black and white pictures of cathedrals with your Leica lenses in your hollidays is one thing. But for people working with their cameras you need full cooperation between your lens and camera, complete autofocus, exif data and all.

No, we perfectly get that some professionals need a complete system in which to shoot. But we also know that systems aren't born complete. They take years or even decades to reach a status of being 'complete'. We are early adopters, which means we are willing to take the risks with a new system, and the output and features we get are what makes us find the journey worthwhile. If you need a 70-200 for your professional work and the system doesn't have one, you look for another system. No big deal. Not whine about it like a petulant child on a forum knowing that a system is less than half a year old (Fuji didn't have anything above portrait length for the first 2 years of their system). If you don't have an A7, then why do you care? Go pick something that suits your requirements and be done with it. The rest of us understand the limitations of the system perfectly well and are willing to trust Sony to eventually get there. But if people only ever enter into a system when it is complete, then no new system will ever get to that point because financially no company can introduce a system fully mature even in a couple of years. They have to grow into it, and they need early adopters to buy into it so that it's not built on costs with no revenue while they try to get there.

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OP Ramius Forum Member • Posts: 77
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Absolutely. That adapter makes it possible. And its great for photographers who really want to switch to Sonys new system. But it adds bulk, and its a very expensive adapter. It would be more ideal if you could avoid that.

OP Ramius Forum Member • Posts: 77
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

I did try out a few Tamron E-lenses. And I was disappointed in the quality I got, going from full frame to crop frame. But it worked great, which is why I wish they would start producing FE versions.

And Im not sure what you mean by angry. I´m certainly not angry. Others in this thread are, and feel the need to lash out. But still it doesnt make me angry.

quezra Veteran Member • Posts: 3,915
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Ramius wrote:

Im very happy with my purchase so far. But disappointed by the lack of options to it.

Thank you? I dont think your in this discussion for anything else than to feel good about yourself and justify your purchase. The question I´m asking is simple, are you happy with the FE lineup or not, just say "yes" and move along

I am perfectly happy with my 55/1.8.  It is the best lens I've ever owned.  Even when I was on NEX with half a dozen lenses, I found I mostly used the (excellent) 35/1.8 OSS.  So when I jumped into this system, I knew I'd be happy for a long while, thinking it would suit my collection of legacy lenses.  The 55/1.8 though is crowding out my legacy lenses all by itself because it's just so darn good.  The kit lens I got as backup sits almost unused.  As for the WA, I too am interested in one, but I can't afford to buy it right now so I'm quite happy for Sony to take their time to get it right.  Maybe if it's out by the end of the year I'll have the budget to get it!

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Lightshow
Lightshow Veteran Member • Posts: 6,939
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Ramius wrote:

Thus far, Sony has only released four lenses for the A7 cameras. And they have the nerve to present the camera at the Photography Show with APS-C mounted lenses: http://www.dpreview.com/news/2014/03/06/the-photography-show-2014-tidbits-from-the-show-floor/10

Is this not a clear indication that the selection of FE optics is too limited? When they should have been presenting new FE lenses, they must instead present the camera with the newest in crop lenses instead. To me, this almost admitting that despite the camera being good, there is a lack of support for it.

The A7 still feels new. But it was actually released in november last year. Thats nearly five months ago. And despite the thing selling out like hot cakes, no third party lens manufacturer has announced anything for the FE mount.

Should they not have done so by now? I think its a bit wierd that big brand Sony is announcing such a good, expensive and revolutionary camera, but yet they have no cooperation with brands like Sigma, Tamron or Voigtlander to offer more choices in the FE-line.

This is a professional grade camera, and professionals need options. There has been several photography expos, shows and events they could have used to present FE optics on, but still they have not. How long is it going to take?

It takes longer than 5 months to design good lenses.

The Zeiss are coming!

Sigma will probably show something later this year.

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Camley Senior Member • Posts: 1,778
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
1

Ramius

I have been pleased with the performance of my Canon EF lenses on my a7. With the Metabones Smart Adapter, I can use image stabilization and get full aperture control. AF is a bit slow but I knew that when I bought the adapter.

As to Sony Zeiss lenses, the two primes (35 f/2.8 and 55 f/1.8) have stellar performance and I am prepared to wait for a couple more like this. A 24 and a 100 macro/portrait would be nice.

I think that it takes time to design good small lenses for the camera.

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sean lancaster
sean lancaster Veteran Member • Posts: 7,378
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

quezra wrote:

Ramius wrote:

And judging by the responses here, I see there are alot of hobby photographers here who doesnt quite understand how professional photography works. Its good with adapters and and the option of using legacy lenses.

But that stuff is completely out of the question for many professionals. Taking black and white pictures of cathedrals with your Leica lenses in your hollidays is one thing. But for people working with their cameras you need full cooperation between your lens and camera, complete autofocus, exif data and all.

No, we perfectly get that some professionals need a complete system in which to shoot. But we also know that systems aren't born complete. They take years or even decades to reach a status of being 'complete'. We are early adopters, which means we are willing to take the risks with a new system, and the output and features we get are what makes us find the journey worthwhile. If you need a 70-200 for your professional work and the system doesn't have one, you look for another system. No big deal.

Exactly correct. People making money off of photography who need a range of focal lengths are just not going to invest in a new system that doesn't fit their needs if their needs include AF. That's silly. Choose Canon or Nikon and enjoy the quality lenses you need until this system matures. I was happy buying into this system with just the FE Zeiss 55. If that's the only lens I ever get from Sony/Zeiss that I want in the native mount then I will never complain because I bought in knowing that was the only AF lens I needed right now. I will probably get a wide angle (e.g., Voigtlander 21/1.8) and I already have the Contax G 90/2.8 for portraits. My wide angle and portrait photography do not require fast focus. I wouldn't mind a fast 35 with AF, but I had the Sigma 35/1.4 Art on my Canon 6D along with the 50/1.2L and I realized that after 2 months the 50/1.2L was sitting at home every time I went out as I preferred the Sigma 35. Right now I am pleased with the Zeiss 55 enough that I think this focal length presents a challenge for me for a long time to come. Unlike a pro, I never need a shot. If I can't get the shot I want from the Zeiss 55 by backing up or walking closer then there are plenty of other shots I will find.

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tobias2003 Forum Member • Posts: 85
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
2

It was clear to me from the beginning that it wouldn't be faster. And, five months is nothing. People who buy the A7 probably have another camera that they can use for those situations where lenses are missing on the A7.

Looking back at other new systems, like MFT, Fuji X, NEX etc., it takes a few years to have a decent lens line-up. It will be more fun too if we don't get them all at once.

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Pete Y Contributing Member • Posts: 508
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Has there ever been a true cooperation between camera makers and third party lens makers?  Within the micro four thirds camp, maybe.  For Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fujifilm etc, I doubt it very much.

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nevercat Veteran Member • Posts: 3,193
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
2

dear Ramius,

I see some big misunderstandings in your posts in this thread:

1. The A7 is not a professional camera, it is aimed at the advanced amateurs. Yes there will be professionas using this camera, but it is not aimed at them, Sony is missing the right service for them.

2. third party les builders are not jumping in a new system when it comes to market. It took Sigma more then one and a half year to get their two primes for the E-mount, and even longr for mft. So it will not come at launch with a FE lens. The FF E-mount cameras are the only one in the market at this moment and it will bring to much risk to Sigma when they can't spread the risk over more then one brand...

3. Developping lenses is a long and expensive process, so it is not wise to wait with launching your new system until you have a lot of lenses. Better is go develop a few, launch your system and when it is a success create more lenses.

4. FE is not a movement, it is the Full Frame E-mount lens standard.

5. The fact that Sony shows the APS E-mount lenses on the A7 on a camera show is very smart, you show the compatability with these lenses.

6. Tamron is cooperating with Sony, it is possible that they designed and build some of the FE lenses and sell it under the Sony name (at this moment it is possible that the kitlens is a Tamron design).

I do agree with you that it would be nice to have more lenses for the A7, but I don't think more lenses will attract more professional users, as they want more then lenses alone. This camera is not for sport or wildlife photographyso it will not sell in large numbers to those photographers.

Sonyhas a lens roadmap with a total of 15 lenses on it for the next 2 years, so they prommised to support the new system in that way.

Remember that good lenses are expensive, there is no way that will change. I once got myself a 70-400G lens that was more expensive then my A700 was. And there are lense out there that costs over 10 times the price of the camera they are used on...

Sony started te FF E- mount with some high quality glass, and there are still people complaining about the quality of the kit zoom lens... You can't please them all...

SQLGuy Veteran Member • Posts: 7,357
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Ramius wrote:

Whats else missing? A better standard zoom for sure, with F2.8 or higher. And more zooms, like a 16-35 or 16-50mm. My collegues in the press is using their 16-35mm more than any other lens.

I would expect a wide angle zoom to be next on Sony's list, but nobody that I can find makes a full frame 16-50. There is one rumored to be coming from Canon, but not even announced yet, as far as I can tell.

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A7 with kit lens and a number of legacy lenses (mostly Canon FD)

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quezra Veteran Member • Posts: 3,915
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

sean lancaster wrote:

I was happy buying into this system with just the FE Zeiss 55. If that's the only lens I ever get from Sony/Zeiss that I want in the native mount then I will never complain because I bought in knowing that was the only AF lens I needed right now.

Yes, to me the 55/1.8 + A7/r is basically the 50mm version of the RX1: The combination is so good that - if you like 50mm - it's worth getting the A7/r just for that lens alone, the same way the RX1 was a terrific option for 35mm lovers. Obviously this logic doesn't apply to zoom/tele users etc.

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EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
1

JurijTurnsek wrote:

A large user base of APS-C cameras on one side and an emerging user base for FF cameras. How do you please both at the same time? You can't expect Sony to dish out new lenses so fast, because Sony is after quality.

Sony posted the roadmap and you all knew what you bought into. Now deal with it. You can either be happy with what you got or bitch about what you knew was not coming anyway.

That roadmap turned out to be false. It told us that the 24-70mm would launch with the camera. So did the press release about the cameras, which told us it would launch with three prime lenses. Instead, only the 35mm was available at launch. Along with the kit lens. The 55mm came later. The 24-70mm didnt even come that year.

But remember that this roadmap is only for their own lenses. Im making this thread about the whole FE range. Where other manufacturers should be offering lenses too. If you look at other sides of the consumer electronics business - Sony does not launch a new Playstation without communicating with third party studios and letting them start working on games before release. I wish they would have done so with this camera and and lenses as well.

I am unaware to the roadmap you speak of. Sony was pretty clear about launch being with FE 35 and FE 28-70, with FE 55 being available shortly (and that happened) followed by 24-70 (and that happened) and that 70-200 will start shipping in early 2014 (may start shipping this month). That makes up the first five FE lenses.

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EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Bribed them? So you think third party support for your product is a negative thing?

If anything, that makes the road to success and even shorter. I think your thinking is very proprietary and outdated. The more support, the better. How can you possibly argue against this? Infact, Sony already does this with other products, like their Playstation.

And judging by the responses here, I see there are alot of hobby photographers here who doesnt quite understand how professional photography works. Its good with adapters and and the option of using legacy lenses.

But that stuff is completely out of the question for many professionals. Taking black and white pictures of cathedrals with your Leica lenses in your hollidays is one thing. But for people working with their cameras you need full cooperation between your lens and camera, complete autofocus, exif data and all.

Compactness is not the only advantage of the A7 cameras. There are many other more important reasons for professional photographers to buy these.

If compactness is not an issue, pick up an LAEA3/4 and you can access any number of fast lenses, zoom or otherwise.

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tom Senior Member • Posts: 2,724
Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

If you read back through e-mount threads, you will see that slow lens development and release is nothing new for Sony. Add to that the fact that people who spend a lot of money on a full frame camera are going to want lenses that have high quality over the whole frame. That's a lot harder than making lenses that are 'ok' over the cropped sensor. Thankfully there are MF legacy lens options to fill the gap. If Sony releases the FF lenses according to their roadmap that will be a surprise, and something to crow about (especially if they are high quality -- if not get ready to duck.)

In the old days (pre digital) camera manufacturers would release a new camera system with a wide range of lenses (at least the common ones plus a macro or two).  Today it seems like every new system release is a marketing test - release a camera or two and a lens or two - if it's popular the company will start gearing up to add lenses -- if they can convince the bean counters that the initial sales results really mean there will be sufficient return on investment to spend the money bringing new lenses to market.

For third party manufacturers it is even more difficult with a unique camera system.  The close registration distance and limited market for mirrorless FF lenses mean a unique lens line. They can't just swap mounts and electronics and sell them to their big markets (C&N users).  If they just take their older designs and use a long mount, they will get bashed for making lenses that are too large.  If Sony gives up after a couple of cameras or changes lens protocols, that's a lot of cost with no easy market.  It's happened in the flash area where companies hadn't produced flash accessories with the ISOi (Minolta) flash foot, then they started to, and then Sony changed the flash shoe.

tom

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