Interesting article posted by Kirk Tuck...All the cameras are better than you are

Started Mar 4, 2014 | Discussions
Moti Veteran Member • Posts: 8,280
Re: They are better, I'm not. What can I do?

Well, maybe for a start learn to be better? It is not rocket science, even I did it...

Moti

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Great Bustard Forum Pro • Posts: 42,061
Re: In other words...
1

javayoda wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

...it's the hard working immigrants seeking economic opportunity, many of whom dominate the best research facilities, that make America the economic powerhouse that it is. Seems like the natives are just holding the immigrants back.

I take it by "natives" you actually mean the descendants of other immigrants.

Specifically, people born in America.

Chrisada Regular Member • Posts: 210
Re: Pretty sure that's just Kirk's sense of humor ;)

Although maybe there is a direct correlation between education rates and M4/3 adoption. Hmm…

Or averaged body mass

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intruder61 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,064
Re: His attitude sucks.....

Guy Parsons wrote:

DaveLemi wrote:

This is well thought out and delves into what is sufficient-

http://ripecamera.blogspot.com/2014/03/all-cameras-are-better-than-you-are.html

Kirk's site-

http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.com/2014/03/important-announcement-from-ceo-of.html

Quote (re M4/3) " And while the adaptation rate in the U.S. (lower education standards than most of the rest of the world) has been slow many parts of the world are snapping them up and eroding market share of the conventional mirrored digital cameras."

I'm an Aussie (most intelligent species in the world!) and even I'm offended by his attitude.

Regards.... Guy

lol....but you still agree with him.

intruder61 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,064
Re: His attitude sucks.....
1

Kirk Tuck wrote:

facts is facts mate.

facts and truth offend the politically correct nowadays

you mustn't upset them.

Jacques Cornell
Jacques Cornell Forum Pro • Posts: 10,485
Re: f2.8 zooms

Bhima78 wrote:

Jacques Cornell wrote:

gak44 wrote:

Jack Hass wrote:

gak44 wrote:

Bhima78 wrote:

And honestly, m4/3 and other mirrorless cameras have just recently become competitive performance wise to DSLRs. Especially the progress in focusing.

Not when value-for-money enters the equation.

I switched to M43 forthe size and weight advantages, and then only because of worsening arthritis. Dollar for dollar Canon and Nikon DSLRs offer better performance.

This completely depends on what you need. SLRs do some things better, like predictive AF, and apsc/FF have higher resolution. But, perhaps you don't shoot action. Perhaps you don't print large. I personally tend to crop a lot as my shots are not always planned out, but i find 16mp more than enough. If new models offer more i will take it, but it's not like im complaining now. I would much rather have cdaf without worry of BF/FF, i would much rather have peaking in my VF. I would much rather have no vibration in my camera, and a shutter that will last a million shots instead of 100k. These are the things i would sacrifice if i jumped to Canikon and left my GX7.

I totally get size and weight are a big benefit for some, but there are far more benefits than just that. If you are not aware of the others, that's too bad. The only reason i would switch to a DSLR is if top notch predictive tracking was a MUST.

I do not think you understood my comment.

What I said is that DSLRs offer better value-for-money, not that they are "better" than M43. Having switched I would not go back to DSLRs. I know that I am paying a premium for the size and weight reduction, and am content to do so.

One of the big attractions of m43 for me was the availability of f2.8 zooms for about 1/3 the cost of FF equivalents. In my book, that's better value for money.

Hrmm... I'm not seeing that. My DSLR 2.8 Sigma standard zoom (17-50) with OIS was only $500. There is nothing in the m43 line that has those specs for anywhere near that price. Well, unless you plan to buy a fuji x-e1 (only $800 WITH that stellar 2.8-4 lens).

I'm personally waiting for companies like sigma to start shaking things up in this space to get more lens competition going. Though with my luck they'll probably make an APS-C sized Foveon mirrorless interchangeable camera.

Please read again. I specifically compared to FF.

You're talking about APS-C.

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Jacques Cornell
Jacques Cornell Forum Pro • Posts: 10,485
Going OT

Bluephotons wrote:

I Don't know who they are and don't care to Goggle, some time ago there were rumors about shills among the posters here, now we also have groupies?

How about reading the article and discussing it? Or just leaving the thread alone?

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Ulric Veteran Member • Posts: 4,535
Re: Interesting collection of logical fallacies by Kirk Tuck
3

DaveLemi wrote:

This is well thought out and delves into what is sufficient-

http://ripecamera.blogspot.com/2014/03/all-cameras-are-better-than-you-are.html

Well, if we shot them the way we did in the film days (when we were more than reasonably happy with the performance of our film+cameras) that would mean using good techniques.

No, because technology didn't stop in the 60's, it hasn't stopped now and it won't stop any time soon. If I use my car in the same way as I would a cart pulled by donkeys, it wouldn't make me a good driver, it would make me an idiot, despite the fact that people were more than reasonably happy with the performance of carts pulled by donkeys.

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Guy Parsons
Guy Parsons Forum Pro • Posts: 30,584
PC and all that jazz.

intruder61 wrote:

facts and truth offend the politically correct nowadays

you mustn't upset them.

Hmmmm, now I'm offended by the inference that I am politically correct.

I just thought that his gratuitous comment had zero to do with camera choices, it's another factor at work.

Just thought that I'd get more attention with a silly subject line, and it worked.

Regards..... Guy (prepared to offend anybody at any time if the facts are relevant)

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Guy Parsons
Guy Parsons Forum Pro • Posts: 30,584
Re: His attitude sucks.....

intruder61 wrote:

lol....but you still agree with him.

Yes, Australia has poor education standards and falling fast (despite the recently deposed Labour (left leaning) government spending billions on useless programs to "improve" education). USA is even lower in ranking but not sure which way it's going.

But all that has bugger-all to do with camera choices. I never went to college or university yet I bought M4/3, Pen style no less.

Regards....... Guy

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javayoda Regular Member • Posts: 371
Re: In other words...
1

Great Bustard wrote:

javayoda wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

...it's the hard working immigrants seeking economic opportunity, many of whom dominate the best research facilities, that make America the economic powerhouse that it is. Seems like the natives are just holding the immigrants back.

I take it by "natives" you actually mean the descendants of other immigrants.

Specifically, people born in America.

There is an definitely an anti-intellectual bent here these days (particularly among those of a certain political stripe) but I can't even remotely agree with your assessment.

That said, the fortunes of mirrorless cameras in the US are directly related to education - just not the kind being bloviated upon. It's called a "marketing failure".

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Guy Parsons
Guy Parsons Forum Pro • Posts: 30,584
Re: Interesting collection of logical fallacies by Kirk Tuck

Ulric wrote:

Well, if we shot them the way we did in the film days (when we were more than reasonably happy with the performance of our film+cameras) that would mean using good techniques.

No, because technology didn't stop in the 60's, it hasn't stopped now and it won't stop any time soon.

It keeps getting better, just makes it easier to get the results that we visualise.

If I use my car in the same way as I would a cart pulled by donkeys, it wouldn't make me a good driver, it would make me an idiot, despite the fact that people were more than reasonably happy with the performance of carts pulled by donkeys.

Now it's the donkeys driving the cars, based on the number of accidents and the road manners.

Regards...... Guy

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Pixnat2
Pixnat2 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,549
Nice article. IQ war seems over.

Thanks for sharing, that's a good read.

I mostly agree with what he says about photography.

I notice that many influent Photographers and bloggers seems to converge to one point now : we have reached a sort of plateau of optical performance.

Differences in IQ between FF, APS-C and m4/3 are minimal, as are every "improvement" advertised on every new sensor.

So IQ war seems over. Now we can concentrate on Photography.

We, amateur photographers, will not need anymore to upgrade every year. Camera companies are in trouble

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Cheers,
Frederic
http://azurphoto.com/

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Sergey_Green
Sergey_Green Forum Pro • Posts: 11,758
I agree ..

Jacques Cornell wrote:

One of the big attractions of m43 for me was the availability of f2.8 zooms for about 1/3 the cost of FF equivalents. In my book, that's better value for money.

I don't think there are any f/5.6 zooms in FF camp (not that I am aware of), they are usually much faster.

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- sergey

Great Bustard Forum Pro • Posts: 42,061
Re: In other words...
1

javayoda wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

javayoda wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

...it's the hard working immigrants seeking economic opportunity, many of whom dominate the best research facilities, that make America the economic powerhouse that it is. Seems like the natives are just holding the immigrants back.

I take it by "natives" you actually mean the descendants of other immigrants.

Specifically, people born in America.

There is an definitely an anti-intellectual bent here these days (particularly among those of a certain political stripe) but I can't even remotely agree with your assessment.

I was being a bit facetious.

That said, the fortunes of mirrorless cameras in the US are directly related to education - just not the kind being bloviated upon. It's called a "marketing failure".

'Tis possible.  May also be that Americans prefer OVFs.  So, when EVFs are widely regarded to be as good as, or better, than OVFs, that might spark more interest in mirrorless cameras in the US.  If that time has already come to pass, then, as you say, it's a marketing failure.  Then again, maybe the viewfinder has nothing to do with it.

Michael J Davis
Michael J Davis Veteran Member • Posts: 3,495
Re: They are better, I'm not. What can I do?

Interestingly, I have a reputation at our Photo Soc of producing 'sharp' photos, some of my G1 + 20mm f1.7 photos (at f1.7) being assumed by a visiting judge as 'full-frame'.

So last month I gave a short talk (mainly for new-comers) on '12 points to produce sharp photos'; nothing that would surprise anyone here, but all based on the premise that "sharpness cannot be added - only lost!"

When judging photos at other clubs, I'm often disappointed at the lack of quality presented to me - again either softness, or worse, 'over-sharpening'. (Of course, I'm judging mainly on composition and "what's the story this photo tells?").

So the real point is that the quality is there in every camera (and many camera phones) produced today, so the skill is learning to use it. In that I agree with KT's article.

Mike

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rovingtim Veteran Member • Posts: 8,644
You are wrong
2

Sergey_Green wrote:

Jacques Cornell wrote:

One of the big attractions of m43 for me was the availability of f2.8 zooms for about 1/3 the cost of FF equivalents. In my book, that's better value for money.

I don't think there are any f/5.6 zooms in FF camp (not that I am aware of), they are usually much faster.

You are wrong. But the FF f5.6 zooms are of similar size to 4/3rds f2.8 zooms.

More interestingly, the FF F4 zooms were smaller than the old 4/3rds f2 zooms. That is where Oly originally went wrong.

amalric
amalric Forum Pro • Posts: 10,839
Re: Nice article. IQ war seems over.
2

Pixnat2 wrote:

Thanks for sharing, that's a good read.

I mostly agree with what he says about photography.

I notice that many influent Photographers and bloggers seems to converge to one point now : we have reached a sort of plateau of optical performance.

Differences in IQ between FF, APS-C and m4/3 are minimal, as are every "improvement" advertised on every new sensor.

So IQ war seems over. Now we can concentrate on Photography.

We, amateur photographers, will not need anymore to upgrade every year. Camera companies are in trouble

Even more 'gear sites' like this, where people discuss impossible minutiae at day's length.

That's where you see the limits of Education. They won't be able to discuss Photography, because they have no History of it.

Some know more or less their genre, but that's it.

Am.

agentul Contributing Member • Posts: 619
Re: His attitude sucks.....

Guy Parsons wrote:

Quote (re M4/3) " And while the adaptation rate in the U.S. (lower education standards than most of the rest of the world) has been slow many parts of the world are snapping them up and eroding market share of the conventional mirrored digital cameras."

I'm an Aussie (most intelligent species in the world!) and even I'm offended by his attitude.

Regards.... Guy

yeah, man, coming from a professional photographer, that's saying something. it's not like a he just has a PhD in Engineering, or he's some researcher in the medical field, he's a PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHER. he points cameras and takes portraits for a living. can you imagine the kind of brain power that takes?

Marty4650
Marty4650 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,021
Cork, this really is a problem
2

It is a problem that we can overcome, but it still is a problem for us.

As someone who used to hire people, I was constantly appalled by the high percentage of high school and even college graduates who could not read or write properly. Of course, we could overcome this problem by providing remedial training after they are hired. And there are many jobs that don't require these skills at all, so it wasn't a deal breaker in ever case. But it was a confounding annoyance, especially when you consider we spend considerably more on education per student than any other nation on earth does.

A disturbing portion of our highly skilled workers had to be immigrants. While I have absolutely nothing against immigration, I always felt we should have done a better job preparing our own children for these jobs.

Somehow, the Europeans and Asians are still able to cram their student's heads with subjects like language, literature, arts, and science.... while ALSO teaching them about recycling, feminism, global warming, and gay rights.

We seem to be only capable of doing the later. And at a much higher cost per student.

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