Does NX1 body deserve a multiple aspect-ratio sensor?

First let me say this poll is pure speculation on my part, based on nothing more than some rumoured NX1 specs.Therefore, please take everything you read here with a teaspoon of salt.

Here's my reasoning:  I think a 'pro' body (like the NX1) deserves a sensor that can natively support multiple aspect-ratios, including 1:1, 4:3, 3:2 and 16:9.  By 'natively', I'm referring to a sensor that's oversized enough to capture all 4 aspect-ratios while maximising the effective image-circle covered by the NX mount.

There's plenty of prior-art for multiple aspect-ratio sensors, including Panasonic GH2, GH3 & GH4.

But I'm thinking NX1 needs to go one better, by capturing 1:1 as well.

Why 1:1 ratio?

• Well 1:1 is often used by pros with MF equipment for a start.
• Plus, 1:1 allows you to maximize the amount of sensor real-estate covered by a given image-circle.
• Finally, I respect Kirk Tuck's opinion, when he says good things about composing at 1:1 aspect ratio.

So... what do you think?

Hmm, I'm really not sure that it would be used often enough to justify the extra costs (which are significant) from Samsung's perspective.  I assume these sensors are batch manufactured, akin to silicon, right?  So we would gain anything from making a round sensor in terms of cost would we T.T.

I think an octagon sensor would work fairly well since you could crop it square, wide, or tall, but maybe fit more chips on the wafer than a square chip.  I don't know if the cost would be higher for an odd shape or not, maybe they have an easier time cutting rectangular chips.

From a marketing perspective I prefer a standard 4x6 or 3x4 chip in a standard size (135 format, APS-C, 4/3", 1", 2/3", etc).  I would tolerate an APS-H, but it becomes a chore to market it, people that buy it might just rather buy APS-C or FF instead.

Eric

viking79 wrote:

I think an octagon sensor would work fairly well since you could crop it square, wide, or tall, but maybe fit more chips on the wafer than a square chip. I don't know if the cost would be higher for an odd shape or not, maybe they have an easier time cutting rectangular chips.

From a marketing perspective I prefer a standard 4x6 or 3x4 chip in a standard size (135 format, APS-C, 4/3", 1", 2/3", etc). I would tolerate an APS-H, but it becomes a chore to market it, people that buy it might just rather buy APS-C or FF instead.

Eric

I do like your octagon idea, but I have no idea if it could be economically fabbed or not.

But my idea is a lot simpler than that; I'm proposing a slightly (ie. 33%) oversized APS-C sensor.

I've just done the math, and I claim 33% more area is sufficient to capture all 4 aspect-ratios.

Here's a screenie, showing my spreadsheet calcs....

Some hypothetical dimensions, to suit a fictitious NX sensor

In case anyone's interested in sensor speculation, here's a linky to the little spreadsheet referred to above.

hootsmon wrote:

First let me say this poll is pure speculation on my part, based on nothing more than some rumoured NX1 specs.Therefore, please take everything you read here with a teaspoon of salt.

The future often starts with present speculations...

Here's my reasoning: I think a 'pro' body (like the NX1) deserves a sensor that can natively support multiple aspect-ratios, including 1:1, 4:3, 3:2 and 16:9. By 'natively', I'm referring to a sensor that's oversized enough to capture all 4 aspect-ratios while maximising the effective image-circle covered by the NX mount.

There's plenty of prior-art for multiple aspect-ratio sensors, including Panasonic GH2, GH3 & GH4.

AFAIK the GH2 has such a sensor, the GH3 has not and the GH4 perhaps (not).

But I'm thinking NX1 needs to go one better, by capturing 1:1 as well.

...you probably mean bigger?

Why 1:1 ratio?

• Well 1:1 is often used by pros with MF equipment for a start.
• Plus, 1:1 allows you to maximize the amount of sensor real-estate covered by a given image-circle.
• Finally, I respect Kirk Tuck's opinion, when he says good things about composing at 1:1 aspect ratio.

So... what do you think?

I like the idea and  I'm hoping since years, that a manufacturer is crazy enough to pull one out...

...maybe we have to convince the marketing guys in a subtle way to deliver something unique for Samsung...

...something that puts a dent into the current camera market.

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A old rangefinder style camera from a new manufacturer like Samsung is cold coffee in comparison to this new approach in digital cameras for the broad digital consumer market.

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If I had to decide, I would give it a try...

...because even if the camera would not sell well, it would have a huge impact marketing wise...

...and therefore maybe a lot more effective than a normal marketing campaign.

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However, I would opt for at least a 32 MP sensor in this case...

...that also the conventional marketing has a good ground to start from.

could well be a square censor of sorts if the rumoured 28mp sensor is correct (29.9mp 5472 x5472) perhaps they could be making it a little smaller to ease edge problems from the lenses?

I'm amazed nobody has already made square sensors, just think never have to change from portrait to landscape or have any need for an extra grip. if they were to make a square format sensor this would make many people interested imo and could well get many more on board with the nx system

mrggt wrote:

could well be a square censor of sorts if the rumoured 28mp sensor is correct (29.9mp 5472 x5472) perhaps they could be making it a little smaller to ease edge problems from the lenses?

Yes, the diagonal size should be kept the same as is, because of the lenses.

A nice addition would be, that all the camera tests, which perform lw/ph or lp/ph resolution tests, would benefit from the higher vertical resolution...

...even more than 4/3 aspect ratio sensors in comparison to APS.

I'm amazed nobody has already made square sensors, just think never have to change from portrait to landscape or have any need for an extra grip. if they were to make a square format sensor this would make many people interested imo and could well get many more on board with the nx system

Yes, that is why I wrote "I'm hoping since years" because I see those benefits too...

...however, the drawbacks are higher costs which probably won't return with sales from the first square format, multi aspect capable, camera...

...but which will return for sure, because of higher sales from the whole camera line, stimulated by the generated attention.

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...and even the people in this very forum and other photography related sites would benefit,

because no Troll could deny this USP (Unique Selling Proposition / Unique Selling Point).

Usee wrote:

mrggt wrote:

could well be a square censor of sorts if the rumoured 28mp sensor is correct (29.9mp 5472 x5472) perhaps they could be making it a little smaller to ease edge problems from the lenses?

Yes, the diagonal size should be kept the same as is, because of the lenses.

A nice addition would be, that all the camera tests, which perform lw/ph or lp/ph resolution tests, would benefit from the higher vertical resolution...

...even more than 4/3 aspect ratio sensors in comparison to APS.

I'm amazed nobody has already made square sensors, just think never have to change from portrait to landscape or have any need for an extra grip. if they were to make a square format sensor this would make many people interested imo and could well get many more on board with the nx system

Yes, that is why I wrote "I'm hoping since years" because I see those benefits too...

It's actually kind of a risky thing to market in my opinion, because a lot of people don't like change, and when you change the sensor so that 1:1 aspect ratio has the largest pixel dimensions, then all the people that don't like to crop will be up in arms because a. they don't want to crop it, and b. they are mostly not used to composing at that ratio, and it's also not a ratio that is well suited to the dimensions of the subjects many people shoot.

I'm not against it personally, I just see the potential for there to be a lot of pushback and possibly even Samsung ridicule from such a move.

...however, the drawbacks are higher costs which probably won't return with sales from the first square format, multi aspect capable, camera...

...but which will return for sure, because of higher sales from the whole camera line, stimulated by the generated attention.

-

...and even the people in this very forum and other photography related sites would benefit,

because no Troll could deny this USP (Unique Selling Proposition / Unique Selling Point).

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ttbek wrote:

Usee wrote:

mrggt wrote:

could well be a square censor of sorts if the rumoured 28mp sensor is correct (29.9mp 5472 x5472) perhaps they could be making it a little smaller to ease edge problems from the lenses?

Yes, the diagonal size should be kept the same as is, because of the lenses.

A nice addition would be, that all the camera tests, which perform lw/ph or lp/ph resolution tests, would benefit from the higher vertical resolution...

...even more than 4/3 aspect ratio sensors in comparison to APS.

I'm amazed nobody has already made square sensors, just think never have to change from portrait to landscape or have any need for an extra grip. if they were to make a square format sensor this would make many people interested imo and could well get many more on board with the nx system

Yes, that is why I wrote "I'm hoping since years" because I see those benefits too...

It's actually kind of a risky thing to market in my opinion, because a lot of people don't like change, and when you change the sensor so that 1:1 aspect ratio has the largest pixel dimensions, then all the people that don't like to crop will be up in arms because a. they don't want to crop it, and b. they are mostly not used to composing at that ratio, and it's also not a ratio that is well suited to the dimensions of the subjects many people shoot.

It would be too easy and already made, if there wouldn't be any cons...
...and this is the chance!

With an 1:1 sensor as base of a multi aspect ratio sensor, you don't have to crop, you simply chose the aspect ratio, you like the most.

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If you focus (as a comparatively newcomer to the camera market) your main attention to the people who don't like a change...

...you should not try the business anyway.

I'm not against it personally, I just see the potential for there to be a lot of pushback and possibly even Samsung ridicule from such a move.

...everything can happen, but I'm sure it wont get worse than the Galaxy NX...

...and you can be sure to get a big attention by the masses AND you will at least fill a niche at the same time - for sure!

-

What if it becomes a great success and the breakthrough for a good reputation?

...however, the drawbacks are higher costs which probably won't return with sales from the first square format, multi aspect capable, camera...

...but which will return for sure, because of higher sales from the whole camera line, stimulated by the generated attention.

-

...and even the people in this very forum and other photography related sites would benefit,

because no Troll could deny this USP (Unique Selling Proposition / Unique Selling Point).

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Envy is the highest form of recognition.
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Stop to run, start to think.
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Think twice - that doubles the fun!
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Your world is as big, as Your mind.
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Avoid to have only one point of view!
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U see?

mrggt wrote:

could well be a square censor of sorts if the rumoured 28mp sensor is correct (29.9mp 5472 x5472) perhaps they could be making it a little smaller to ease edge problems from the lenses?

Exactly so!  When that 28Mp sensor snippet was supposedly 'leaked', I guess many folks just assumed yet another round of Megapixel wars.  But.... while I've no objection to the concept of smaller pixels per se, I'm suggesting there's a simpler, more plausible explanation which is the designers chose to go the square sensor route instead.

This is probably a wild guess on my part, but I'm hypothesizing that the NX designers  didn't just pluck random dimensions out of thin air; I reckon maybe they were working towards a longer-term goal. So when I noticed that a 20x20mm square sensor happens to cover the NX image-circle exactly, that's when the square sensor idea started to make perfect sense to me.

I'm amazed nobody has already made square sensors, just think never have to change from portrait to landscape or have any need for an extra grip. if they were to make a square format sensor this would make many people interested imo and could well get many more on board with the nx system

Usee wrote:

ttbek wrote:

Usee wrote:

mrggt wrote:

could well be a square censor of sorts if the rumoured 28mp sensor is correct (29.9mp 5472 x5472) perhaps they could be making it a little smaller to ease edge problems from the lenses?

Yes, the diagonal size should be kept the same as is, because of the lenses.

A nice addition would be, that all the camera tests, which perform lw/ph or lp/ph resolution tests, would benefit from the higher vertical resolution...

...even more than 4/3 aspect ratio sensors in comparison to APS.

I'm amazed nobody has already made square sensors, just think never have to change from portrait to landscape or have any need for an extra grip. if they were to make a square format sensor this would make many people interested imo and could well get many more on board with the nx system

Yes, that is why I wrote "I'm hoping since years" because I see those benefits too...

It's actually kind of a risky thing to market in my opinion, because a lot of people don't like change, and when you change the sensor so that 1:1 aspect ratio has the largest pixel dimensions, then all the people that don't like to crop will be up in arms because a. they don't want to crop it, and b. they are mostly not used to composing at that ratio, and it's also not a ratio that is well suited to the dimensions of the subjects many people shoot.

It would be too easy and already made, if there wouldn't be any cons...
...and this is the chance!

With an 1:1 sensor as base of a multi aspect ratio sensor, you don't have to crop, you simply chose the aspect ratio, you like the most.

Hmm, nevermind, I was thinking about that the wrong way, but what I meant is that those that prefer a 3:2 ratio may feel like they're not getting the most out of the sensor if they shoot their preferred way, lol.  In this case though, I suppose the file sizes will be much closer.

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If you focus (as a comparatively newcomer to the camera market) your main attention to the people who don't like a change...

...you should not try the business anyway.

I wasn't recommending shying from change, just that there are some things to consider and maybe it's something you would do and actually not use as a marketing point to the masses, maybe more targeted advertising, etc.. But on the other hand, is a square format popular with Instagram or something (I don't follow social media much...)? This article was a little bit interesting on the topic: http://connect.dpreview.com/post/6566520415/photo-tip-square-format?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=related-news&utm_medium=text&ref=related-news

I'm not against it personally, I just see the potential for there to be a lot of pushback and possibly even Samsung ridicule from such a move.

...everything can happen, but I'm sure it wont get worse than the Galaxy NX...

Yeah, it would be tough to get a worse reaction than the Galaxy NX received.

...and you can be sure to get a big attention by the masses AND you will at least fill a niche at the same time - for sure!

-

What if it becomes a great success and the breakthrough for a good reputation?

It could, if I was in charge at Samsung I wouldn't be against giving it a shot.

...however, the drawbacks are higher costs which probably won't return with sales from the first square format, multi aspect capable, camera...

...but which will return for sure, because of higher sales from the whole camera line, stimulated by the generated attention.

-

...and even the people in this very forum and other photography related sites would benefit,

because no Troll could deny this USP (Unique Selling Proposition / Unique Selling Point).

-- hide signature --

Envy is the highest form of recognition.
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Stop to run, start to think.
-
Think twice - that doubles the fun!
-
Your world is as big, as Your mind.
-
Avoid to have only one point of view!
-
U see?

-- hide signature --

Envy is the highest form of recognition.
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Stop to run, start to think.
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Think twice - that doubles the fun!
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Your world is as big, as Your mind.
-
Avoid to have only one point of view!
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U see?

How many square-sensor bodies can you spot in this picture?

'Leaked' NX prototype bodies

A picture paints a thousand words....

Hypothetical NX1 sensor architecture

The story so far:

• Hootsmon's guessing that NX1 will have a multi-aspect sensor
• Sensor will natively support 1:1, 4:3, 3:2, and 16:9 aspect-ratios
• In UHD video, 16:9 frames get downsampled to 3840×2160, via a 3:2 pixel-binning pipeline
• Additionally 16:9 video-mode gets a 128 pixel buffer on L & R margins, serving as a DIS buffer.

hootsmon wrote:

A picture paints a thousand words....

Hypothetical NX1 sensor architecture

The story so far:

• Hootsmon's guessing that NX1 will have a multi-aspect sensor
• Sensor will natively support 1:1, 4:3, 3:2, and 16:9 aspect-ratios
• In UHD video, 16:9 frames get downsampled to 3840×2160, via a 3:2 pixel-binning pipeline
• Additionally 16:9 video-mode gets a 128 pixel buffer on L & R margins, serving as a DIS buffer.

Well, I'm sold on it.  Whether Samsung went for it or not, time will tell ^_^.

Yes, that's true.  According to rumour-mill, Samsung plans to launch the NX1 at Photokina in September 2014, so I guess official specifications will likely get revealed somewhere around that date.