Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones? Locked

Started Feb 20, 2014 | Discussions
This thread is locked.
Daniel Lauring
Daniel Lauring Veteran Member • Posts: 9,263
Re: The waxy skin tones are just Fuji's interpretation

Graham Hill wrote:

Jim Evidon wrote:

Every camera manufacturer has it's own idea as to what is acceptable with in-camera processing of jpeg images. Frankly, I find fault with all of them. but then again, I shoot RAW and I post process. With Nikon I was doing a lot of things in post precessing to get my acceptable image. Same comment goes for Panasonic, Sony, Leica M's and Olympus. I do not like any of their in-camera processed jpegs. JPEG was the industry's attempt to get an acceptable image out of a tiny 1 to 3 megapixel sensor camera and compressing the image. So much data is lost using jpeg, I am surprised that any serious photographer still uses that format.

With my Fuji XPro-1, the Raw images are near acceptable as is, and my post process workflow is now very simple and quick with minimal tweaking. I use Capture One Pro to convert my Fuji images to TIFF format and the IQ is amazing.

So my advise is to shoot Raw and tweak the images on your computer or keep looking for that perfect camera that produces just the final jpeg image you want. And good luck to you.
Jim

The mantra from this forum for years have been Fujifilm's JPEG engine is the best in the industry.

Now, it seems people are so quick to toss that over the side, forget about what was once taken for granted, and take a giant leap away from the former standard of performance.

It is one of the best, from a color rendition standpoint and even from a skin flattering standpoint.  That is why Fuji has long been loved by wedding photographers.  It is not one of the best jpeg engines with regard to rendering green foliage in landscape photos.  Therefore it isn't the tool someone should buy if that is their main objective.

LaFonte Senior Member • Posts: 2,763
oh, it is the time of the month again?

Seems the orb people are resurfacing again, now with waxy things.

But did you think about others who may like orbs and waxes?

Funny how the Fuji was da $hit for skin tone jpegs just a week ago and now it is plagued by waxy skin tones with so many "affected" professionals. Lets mass returning of Fuji gear commence.... 3,2,1....

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kodachromeguy Contributing Member • Posts: 768
Re: oh, it is the full moon again?

Maybe the full moon brings them out?

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The Kodachromeguy

stulevine
stulevine Regular Member • Posts: 210
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

the user and... Fujifilm for not providing more robust noise reduction settings in firmware.  It would be nice to turn off luminance noise reduction while adjusting the color noise reduction to your own taste.  then it would look more like high speed color film.  And, of course, this only really matters if you care about OOC JPEGS as your primary source of images and don't shoot RAW.

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Graham Hill Senior Member • Posts: 1,355
Re: oh, it is the time of the month again?

LaFonte wrote:

Seems the orb people are resurfacing again, now with waxy things.

Orb people?  You mean the people who called out Fujifilm for their clearly defective sensor, failed to fall for Fujifilm's constant denial, failed to fall for Fujifilm's placebo "fix", and finally forced Fujifilm's hand to issue a recall to fix their defective sensor?  Those Orb people?

But did you think about others who may like orbs and waxes?

Funny how the Fuji was da $hit for skin tone jpegs just a week ago and now it is plagued by waxy skin tones with so many "affected" professionals. Lets mass returning of Fuji gear commence.... 3,2,1....

Miamistan Forum Member • Posts: 61
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

This area of complaint of the fuji system seems really stupid to me.  As a former professional photographer when I shot film the most I could get was asa 3200 and that was pushing a 1600 asa film.  It was grainy as hell and unless you were shooting bw photography of jazz musicians totally unacceptable.  My first camera digital camera was nikon 3 megapixel that could go up to iso 400 and look pretty good.  Then I had a an olympus e series 4 megapixel and looked pretting good up to iso 400.  In 2007 nobodies camera looked good above iso 1600.  The idea that the judgement of a system is how it shoots portraits at iso 6400 is ludicrous. Real pros would be using professional lighting at these extremes.  Process RAW if a jpeg is unpleasing. BTW Nikon and Cannon do not have great jpegs at 6400.  Even now I only go up to 1600 in portaits on any system.  The idea that shots should look great at super iso without post processing is absurd and should no way reflect on Fujis system let alone accuse any manufacture of sabotage.  A bunch of pixel peeping, shoot more shots and analyse less

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John Carson Veteran Member • Posts: 4,232
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Les Lammers wrote:

This was answered in another thread. Fuji did it because the Asian market prefers it. They are aware that is an issue elsewhere. We all see things differently.

There are some logical leaps being made here. What was actually said in the interview was this:

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Do your customers in different countries ask for different things?

Yes. For example in asian counties we have more female customers, certainly in Japan, and they tend to take different pictures - more dreamlike, softer focus, lower contrast. That’s something that some western photographers don’t really understand. Asian customers also seem more keen on social networking and sharing their pictures.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/5988185050/fujifilm-interview-the-only-way-is-to-keep-innovating

-------------------------------------------------------

Observe first that he is answering a question about what people ask for. He says NOTHING about what has been implemented.

Second, note that what is actually being discussed (complained about) in these threads is noise reduction at high ISO. On the other hand, the cameras give very detailed rendering of skin at low ISO.

If the aim is to produce "more dreamlike, softer focus, lower contrast" images, then why is this only happening at high ISO?

--
john carson

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Rudi Senior Member • Posts: 1,276
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Nonsense ! - It´s just the requests of certain users which want more high ISO values. High ISO values tend to bring more noise with it and that has to be removed. Noise removing leads to a loss in sharpnes and details and this loss has to be compensated for. So the images must be resharpened. In other words : you get more flat regions without texture (texture cancelled by NR) and sharpend outlines of these regions. The result is some kind of water color or "waxy" appearance of your digital photographs.

Try it by shooting RAW and You can find that out for Yourself.

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..be aware of all these fools around.
Rudi.

John Carson Veteran Member • Posts: 4,232
Re: Now it is clear as light

nixda wrote:

In the images processed from the raw data without excessive noise reduction, you look 20 years older. Since some of the Fuji X-Trans cameras are targeted primarily to young Japanese women, it is clear why they would render the images the way they do.

It is not clear. If that is the motivation, why not also do it at low ISO?

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john carson

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John Carson Veteran Member • Posts: 4,232
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Dorkington wrote:

As others have said, it's clearly a decision by Fuji.

http://www.fujifilm.com/image_intelligence/photography/facial_skin_smoothing_function/

I find the effects aren't too terrible when shooting -2 NR, and +1 or 2 sharpness. But I rarely use a jpeg straight from camera.

I don't see where it says that this is a technology introduced with the X-E2 or even that is it associated with the X series.

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john carson

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whtchocla7e Contributing Member • Posts: 927
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

mistermejia wrote:

Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Probably someone who doesn't know how to postprocess.

nixda Veteran Member • Posts: 5,482
Re: Now it is clear as light

John Carson wrote:

nixda wrote:

In the images processed from the raw data without excessive noise reduction, you look 20 years older. Since some of the Fuji X-Trans cameras are targeted primarily to young Japanese women, it is clear why they would render the images the way they do.

It is not clear. If that is the motivation, why not also do it at low ISO?

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john carson

Sorry, my comment was tongue-in-cheek. But what you suggest, many celebrity, magazine, and fashion photographers do every day.

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Lakeview Man Regular Member • Posts: 370
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

nonicks wrote:

Shoot Raw. Or tune down the noise reduction to -2 for Jpeg.

-2 noise reduction for JPEG doesn't help if high ISO. Shooting raw is the only solution in that case

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Tapper123
Tapper123 Senior Member • Posts: 1,656
Fuji just needs to be made aware...

mistermejia wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ??

Yes, and I think it's on purpose. Having read that recent interview it was said that Fuji had many female customers in Asia who prefer "dreamy" soft/smooth looking portraits, which is opposite what Western customers prefer.

Fuji is very good at responding to customer needs, so we just have to find a way to let Fuji know that options for much less or even no NR at high ISO is highly desirable to their Western markets.

For a start, sites like DPreview and others need to use their contacts with Fuji to communicate this on behalf of the user base.

I'm pretty sure a firmware update could resolve this complaint pretty effectively. Just a matter of adding more NR options really. And Fuji is king of firmware updates.

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Joel Stern
Joel Stern Forum Pro • Posts: 10,925
Re: Now it is clear as light

nixda wrote:

In the images processed from the raw data without excessive noise reduction, you look 20 years older. Since some of the Fuji X-Trans cameras are targeted primarily to young Japanese women, it is clear why they would render the images the way they do.

What about the claims by others that NR is being allied to RAW at all ISO settings?

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forpetessake
forpetessake Veteran Member • Posts: 4,892
trying to beat the test charts

mistermejia wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ?? Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else? I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now??? I don't get it.

I noticed lately it's been a trend among manufacturers using very aggressive noise reduction even at low ISOs. Everybody is employing adaptive algorithms nowadays separating areas with low special frequencies and reducing color saturation and cranking up the noise reduction in those. Every manufacturer gets different results, and they are all ugly. It's just Fuji was especially unlucky with their noise reduction algorithms producing very noticeable plastic looks.

Joel Stern
Joel Stern Forum Pro • Posts: 10,925
Re: Fuji just needs to be made aware...

Tapper123 wrote:

mistermejia wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ??

Yes, and I think it's on purpose. Having read that recent interview it was said that Fuji had many female customers in Asia who prefer "dreamy" soft/smooth looking portraits, which is opposite what Western customers prefer.

Fuji is very good at responding to customer needs, so we just have to find a way to let Fuji know that options for much less or even no NR at high ISO is highly desirable to their Western markets.

For a start, sites like DPreview and others need to use their contacts with Fuji to communicate this on behalf of the user base.

I'm pretty sure a firmware update could resolve this complaint pretty effectively. Just a matter of adding more NR options really. And Fuji is king of firmware updates.

What about the presence of NR in RAW files?  Why do they do this?

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nixda Veteran Member • Posts: 5,482
Re: Now it is clear as light

Joel Stern wrote:

nixda wrote:

In the images processed from the raw data without excessive noise reduction, you look 20 years older. Since some of the Fuji X-Trans cameras are targeted primarily to young Japanese women, it is clear why they would render the images the way they do.

What about the claims by others that NR is being allied to RAW at all ISO settings?

As far as I understand, the demosaicing algorithm with it's interpolation and associated averaging automatically leads to some sort of noise reduction. There does not seem to be any active noise reduction on top of it. There mud be a similar effect for demosaicing the Bayer CFA, but perhaps less than for the X-Trans CFA.

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Sal Baker Veteran Member • Posts: 9,950
Re: Fuji just needs to be made aware...

Joel Stern wrote:

Tapper123 wrote:

mistermejia wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ??

Yes, and I think it's on purpose. Having read that recent interview it was said that Fuji had many female customers in Asia who prefer "dreamy" soft/smooth looking portraits, which is opposite what Western customers prefer.

Fuji is very good at responding to customer needs, so we just have to find a way to let Fuji know that options for much less or even no NR at high ISO is highly desirable to their Western markets.

For a start, sites like DPreview and others need to use their contacts with Fuji to communicate this on behalf of the user base.

I'm pretty sure a firmware update could resolve this complaint pretty effectively. Just a matter of adding more NR options really. And Fuji is king of firmware updates.

What about the presence of NR in RAW files? Why do they do this?

I don't know that they do, I haven't seen it.  Could you please post some examples of what you're talking about?

Sal

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Joel Stern
Joel Stern Forum Pro • Posts: 10,925
Re: Now it is clear as light

nixda wrote:

Joel Stern wrote:

nixda wrote:

In the images processed from the raw data without excessive noise reduction, you look 20 years older. Since some of the Fuji X-Trans cameras are targeted primarily to young Japanese women, it is clear why they would render the images the way they do.

What about the claims by others that NR is being allied to RAW at all ISO settings?

As far as I understand, the demosaicing algorithm with it's interpolation and associated averaging automatically leads to some sort of noise reduction. There does not seem to be any active noise reduction on top of it. There mud be a similar effect for demosaicing the Bayer CFA, but perhaps less than for the X-Trans CFA.

To be honest I notice in when I compare images in the DPR comparison tool, when I am processing images it hardly seems to be an issue. I wonder what they are using for their RAW files, the representation of the Fuji Xtrans is terrible.

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