Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones? Locked

Started Feb 20, 2014 | Discussions
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mistermejia Veteran Member • Posts: 3,340
Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Is it Fuji itself ??  Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else?  I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now???  I don't get it.

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Sal Baker Veteran Member • Posts: 9,992
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Is it Fuji itself ??  Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else?  I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now???  I don't get it.

RAW files look great so it's not a sensor issue.

Sal

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nonicks Regular Member • Posts: 171
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Shoot Raw. Or tune down the noise reduction to -2 for Jpeg.

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taz98spin Contributing Member • Posts: 533
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Only Nikon experience I have is from my job, where I used a D3S. I don't recall every hearing about plastic skin from my images.. but than again, it was for my job, and we had different PP folks too.

As for Fuji and their newer sensors, which include the X100S that I have.

I have not had any clients complain of waxy skin. But then again, I don't go pass 3200 iso and attempt to shoot in the best idea light setting.

So who's at fault? Maybe Fuji, or maybe the user?

Like I mentioned in the other thread, it looks like the focus was off, and the user tried to adjust the clarity too harshly.

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Ysarex
Ysarex Senior Member • Posts: 1,430
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

User error.

Graham Hill Senior Member • Posts: 1,355
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

mistermejia wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ?? Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else? I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now??? I don't get it.

You have an S5 Pro...the greatest camera EVER made for photographing skin.   Anything else is a huge step down.

OP mistermejia Veteran Member • Posts: 3,340
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Sal Baker wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ?? Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else? I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now??? I don't get it.

RAW files look great so it's not a sensor issue.

Sal

Right. Then is pretty obvious then.  That's pretty sad and i hope Fuji does correct this soon.  I'm in no hurry because i just bought my X-E1, but if fuji continuous making the jpeg output like this i am just going to have to move to another camera manufacturer later on.

I am not sure how much Fuji VALUES the plain jpeg output that the first original cameras output, like the XE1, X-Pro1.  Even the X10 has pretty damn good skin tones.  But if Fuji continues like this, i might as well go back to Nikon and get a D7200, which is going to have much more fire power to begin with, and the waxy skin tones won't make a difference.

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gskolenda
gskolenda Senior Member • Posts: 1,067
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Graham Hill wrote:

mistermejia wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ?? Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else? I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now??? I don't get it.

You have an S5 Pro...the greatest camera EVER made for photographing skin. Anything else is a huge step down.

BullS___ !! I'd bet you could not tell the difference from one camera to the next in regards to skin tone. Waxy Skin Tone! Come-On! maybe it's your waxy monitor! Fuji's are the best aps-c cameras currently!

Has to be user error!

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OP mistermejia Veteran Member • Posts: 3,340
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

taz98spin wrote:

Only Nikon experience I have is from my job, where I used a D3S. I don't recall every hearing about plastic skin from my images.. but than again, it was for my job, and we had different PP folks too.

As for Fuji and their newer sensors, which include the X100S that I have.

I have not had any clients complain of waxy skin. But then again, I don't go pass 3200 iso and attempt to shoot in the best idea light setting.

So who's at fault? Maybe Fuji, or maybe the user?

Like I mentioned in the other thread, it looks like the focus was off, and the user tried to adjust the clarity too harshly.

-- hide signature --

There is nothing wrong with a D3.  Is the newer cameras from the D7000 and on.

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AustinB Regular Member • Posts: 380
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

I don't think it is the sensor because I saw this in my X-A1 too at ISO 6400. It's just noise reduction gone too far.

Nor is it user error in the strict sense. Sure, you can shoot with a prime, open up your aperture and select a lower shutter speed to try to avoid high ISO. With a zoom/kit lens this is obviously more difficult.

OP mistermejia Veteran Member • Posts: 3,340
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

Graham Hill wrote:

mistermejia wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ?? Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else? I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now??? I don't get it.

You have an S5 Pro...the greatest camera EVER made for photographing skin. Anything else is a huge step down.

Yeah, that's why i am not selling it and just decided to take advantage of buying the XE1 to complement it with the S5  

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Mike in Kansas
Mike in Kansas Contributing Member • Posts: 794
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

mistermejia wrote:

Sal Baker wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ?? Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else? I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now??? I don't get it.

RAW files look great so it's not a sensor issue.

Sal

Right. Then is pretty obvious then. That's pretty sad and i hope Fuji does correct this soon. I'm in no hurry because i just bought my X-E1, but if fuji continuous making the jpeg output like this i am just going to have to move to another camera manufacturer later on.

I am not sure how much Fuji VALUES the plain jpeg output that the first original cameras output, like the XE1, X-Pro1. Even the X10 has pretty damn good skin tones. But if Fuji continues like this, i might as well go back to Nikon and get a D7200, which is going to have much more fire power to begin with, and the waxy skin tones won't make a difference.

Or shoot RAW.

I think the term "correct" is strong, as it implies that there is something "wrong".  Maybe the Fuji engineers and the users that they surveyed feel that the high amount of skin smoothing in the JPEGs at high ISO is preferable to a sharper albeit noisier image.  I don't think there is an "error" in their JPEG engine; it was a conscious choice when moving from the X-E1 to the X-E2 to change the JPEG processing in higher ISOs to one that is more heavy-handed.

What would be NICE would be to give the user more control over the amount of skin smoothing / noise reduction that is APPLIED at these higher ISOs, so the in-camera JPEGs look more like the X-E1.

I think you are looking for a conspiracy where there is none...

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OP mistermejia Veteran Member • Posts: 3,340
Mike

Mike in Kansas wrote:

mistermejia wrote:

Sal Baker wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ?? Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else? I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now??? I don't get it.

RAW files look great so it's not a sensor issue.

Sal

Right. Then is pretty obvious then. That's pretty sad and i hope Fuji does correct this soon. I'm in no hurry because i just bought my X-E1, but if fuji continuous making the jpeg output like this i am just going to have to move to another camera manufacturer later on.

I am not sure how much Fuji VALUES the plain jpeg output that the first original cameras output, like the XE1, X-Pro1. Even the X10 has pretty damn good skin tones. But if Fuji continues like this, i might as well go back to Nikon and get a D7200, which is going to have much more fire power to begin with, and the waxy skin tones won't make a difference.

Or shoot RAW.

I think the term "correct" is strong, as it implies that there is something "wrong". Maybe the Fuji engineers and the users that they surveyed feel that the high amount of skin smoothing in the JPEGs at high ISO is preferable to a sharper albeit noisier image. I don't think there is an "error" in their JPEG engine; it was a conscious choice when moving from the X-E1 to the X-E2 to change the JPEG processing in higher ISOs to one that is more heavy-handed.

Why would Fuji "ask" a user how to make the IQ?  Isn't Fuji an expert at this?

What would be NICE would be to give the user more control over the amount of skin smoothing / noise reduction that is APPLIED at these higher ISOs, so the in-camera JPEGs look more like the X-E1.

I think you are looking for a conspiracy where there is none...

Yes, that would be nice.

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Lyle From Canada Senior Member • Posts: 1,512
NR

its simply a matter of overly aggressive noise reduction, even at -2. The raws dont exhibit it, but it can be replicated easily with the lightroom noise reduction slider. A simple firmware fix offering NR OFF makes all this discussion disappear instantly.

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Fuji x-pro1 with 14, 18, 23, 35, 60, 55-200, fuji x100s and WA adapter, fuji x10

taz98spin Contributing Member • Posts: 533
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

mistermejia wrote:

taz98spin wrote:

Only Nikon experience I have is from my job, where I used a D3S. I don't recall every hearing about plastic skin from my images.. but than again, it was for my job, and we had different PP folks too.

As for Fuji and their newer sensors, which include the X100S that I have.

I have not had any clients complain of waxy skin. But then again, I don't go pass 3200 iso and attempt to shoot in the best idea light setting.

So who's at fault? Maybe Fuji, or maybe the user?

Like I mentioned in the other thread, it looks like the focus was off, and the user tried to adjust the clarity too harshly.

-- hide signature --

There is nothing wrong with a D3. Is the newer cameras from the D7000 and on.

Good thing I didn't choose Nikon for my personal use than

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Len_Gee
Len_Gee Veteran Member • Posts: 9,686
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

mistermejia wrote:

Sal Baker wrote:

Is it Fuji itself ?? Or could this be a SABOTAGE thing from the sensor maker itself??

Does Fuji actually make this sensors, or do they buy them from Sony or someone else? I am just curious because i CAN'T believe that the jpegs are changing so much with the new sensors, i couldn't possibly believe that Fuji is just bypassing or ignoring this skin tone issue.

I just moved from nikon to get away from plastic looking skin tones, and Fuji's new cameras are all coming out like this now??? I don't get it.

RAW files look great so it's not a sensor issue.

Sal

Right. Then is pretty obvious then. That's pretty sad and i hope Fuji does correct this soon. I'm in no hurry because i just bought my X-E1, but if fuji continuous making the jpeg output like this i am just going to have to move to another camera manufacturer later on.

I am not sure how much Fuji VALUES the plain jpeg output that the first original cameras output, like the XE1, X-Pro1. Even the X10 has pretty damn good skin tones. But if Fuji continues like this, i might as well go back to Nikon and get a D7200, which is going to have much more fire power to begin with, and the waxy skin tones won't make a difference.

Agree.

Go back to Nikon.

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MrChristopher
MrChristopher Senior Member • Posts: 1,295
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

"Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?"

In the final analysis the answer would be people who don't know how to use/configure their camera.  If Fuji's noise reduction is too aggressive the camera owner is responsible for compensating for that, or they can produce waxy skin tones.  The final choice is theirs.

You could just as easily say "who is responsible for the x100s missed shots?"  Again, it is the camera owners responsibility to recognize the limitations of the x100 AF and adjust their approach accordingly.

Any X camera is capable of taking breath taking shots of people and without a waxy look, assuming the user knows how to operate their camera.

I can take some dog choking, awful photos with my x100.  In fact some of my worst photos ever came from my x100.  I can take equally bad ones with my Sony alpha.  But I prefer nice shots so I spend/spent a lot of time learning their sweet spots, strengths and especially their quirks and limitations.

Many people in camera forums want to shoot JPG, not spend more than 10 seconds in post, and get Henri Bresson results.  All I can say is may the Force be with you.

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Jim Cassatt Veteran Member • Posts: 4,859
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

I have not read all of the replies, so I hope this is not redundant.  If so please forgive me.  Usually I shoot RAW only.  However, I did photograph my granddaughter at ISO 6400 using RAW plus jpeg.  Sure enough the skin had plastic like skin tones.

So I am curious.  What was the setting for the noise reduction for those who have experienced this.  My setting was zero.  However, zero does not mean the noise reduction is turned off.  Indeed with my X-E1, I did some shots at a museum at ISO 6400. The jpegs showed no noise while there was quite a bit of noise in the RAW files.  So even when set to zero, the noise reduction was turned on.

So if you go to the menus you will find that the noise reduction ranges from -2 to +2 with zero in the middle.  Has anyone tried setting the noise reduction to -2 to see is the noise reduction is completely turned off ant that setting?

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SaltLakeGuy
SaltLakeGuy Forum Pro • Posts: 13,641
It is a tool

so learn HOW to USE the tool. The camera is perfectly capable of putting out a file that is stunningly crisp.......even in Jpeg. They have parameters with which you can make adjustments. I suggest you try several different settings, one of which should include diminished noise reduction. Honestly I don't know what all the bellyaching is about. Most of you are likely going to either take the shot with the intention of putting it on the web in a tiny format, or at best make a 8x10 print (already the size above the national standard statistically speaking) so the kind of detail you are barking about isn't going to matter at all in the first place. Frankly Sony practically invented the "plasticky" look due to their excessive noise reduction that is in built and can't be completely turned off. I never had that issue with Nikon semi and pro stuff I've used. Canon gets lots of praise for their low noise performance, but people are not realizing it comes at the cost of detail as well. I was getting more fine detail resolution from a top Micro 4/3rd camera than a Canon 6D I tried so surprise surprise. No free lunches folks

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Les Lammers
Les Lammers Veteran Member • Posts: 3,446
Re: Who is at fault for the waxy skin tones?

This was answered in another thread. Fuji did it because the Asian market prefers it. They are aware that is an issue elsewhere. We all see things differently.

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