I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.

Started Feb 20, 2014 | Discussions
tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 38,813
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
2

jidery wrote:

Yet its ahead of the 7D and not far behind the D7100 in terms of ISO. It's really not that bad compared to its competition.

123Mike is obsessed with digital noise so it may be acceptable to you and me, but not to him. I find other camera characteristics much more important and for me the A77 hits all the right buttons. For others who have a different set of want's and needs maybe not, maybe no APS-C camera.

Through the years I have noticed that for people who want the highest noise S/N ratio possible the best is never good enough for long.

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Tom
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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 38,813
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
3

You will never be happy with any camera for long because in your mind what is the best today will surely "suck" tomorrow. I actually feel sorry for you.

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Tom
Look at the picture, not the pixels
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Miss use of the ability to do 100% pixel peeping is the bane of digital photography because it causes people to fret over inconsequential issues.
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Wally626 Senior Member • Posts: 2,312
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.

123Mike wrote:

Dennis wrote:

My thinking is: if PDAF-on-sensor is ready for prime time and they can make a truly mirrorless camera with the AF performance everyone expects from a '7' series and maybe boost the frame rate in the process, then go for it. If not, then wait. 2015 or 2016 would be fine ... it will still be out before Nikon replaces the D300

The A6000 shows that on-sensor-pdaf *IS* prime time. It apparently runs circles around the A77 for auto focus performance. In fact, the claim is that it has the fastest auto focus ever conceived of any brand any time.

The low light performance of the A77 isn't very good. DXO rates it pretty low. Video performance is dismal. Fact it, it's getting antiquated.

Not sure who is claiming best focus ever, Sony is only claiming best APS-C body, leaving room for the 1DX and 4D at the top. I have not seen any in-depth reviews of the focus system yet, just some demo shots, in which it seemed to perform well. Clearly it is a big jump from what Sony had before. I would not be surprised if the focus system is slowing the A79 as Sony was trying to decide which way to go.

Claudio Galli Contributing Member • Posts: 587
Re: Camera models should be replaced/updated to deal with deficiencies

digitalshooter wrote:

of that current model that cannot be dealt with via firmware and changes in technology that make the camera better.

Not to compete with the other guy.

Wouldn't it be far cheaper (or even free of charge) for us A77 users (probably not for Sony) to have a firmware upgrade, at least in the jpeg area like a better engine and a better in camera noise reduction? As far as I know it should not be difficult for Sony.

I know we have bought our camera for what it was, but if a firmware upgrade can improve some specs, why not?

Claudio

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Lucas_
Lucas_ Veteran Member • Posts: 3,076
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.

IMHO the A77 is an excellent camera and can remain as it is for 2014. Anyway, I feel the market calls for novelties all the time and the main thing I think that could make the A77 a greater camera cannot be introduced by FW alone: lower noise at High ISO. Technology has come a long way in the last two years, and I'd love to see an "A77n" with the new A6000's APS-C sensor. With that, perhaps the SLT mirror could be eliminated ( provided AF performance is at least the same as the current ) and, since we're at it, the processor could be the new Bionz-X!

Just my thoughts.

... Lucas

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tqlla Veteran Member • Posts: 4,629
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.

jidery wrote:

Yes this topic has been butchered to death on these forums, but I still feel like it’s worth writing about as it’s such a controversial topic with many differing opinions. Long story short, people are at this point begging Sony to replace the A77, but I can’t understand why.

Let me start by saying that my understanding of a flagship camera is it is supposed to last a long time. So let’s look at a little history from Sony’s competitors.

The total time between the announcement of the D7000 and the D7100 was close to 3 years.

The Canon 7D is well into its 4 year without a replacement.

The A77 took 3.5 years to replace the A700.

I just want Sony to make a camera that is an upgrade from the A57.

3.5 years for an A700 replacement was too long. A ton of people would have been very VERY happy had Sony made an A580 in an A700 body.

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digitalshooter
digitalshooter Forum Pro • Posts: 19,604
WOuld not be in Sonys best interest to continually resolve issues

that are resolvable via a firmware change, with FW updates.  The manufacture sets the life span, in spite of the fact that some things as you indicate could be addressed via a FW upgrade.

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Digitalshooter
PS: all posts are just my opinion!

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 38,813
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.

I think you mean the A580 sensor in an A700 body but Sony abandoned OVF.
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Tom

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Miss use of the ability to do 100% pixel peeping is the bane of digital photography because it causes people to fret over inconsequential issues.

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123Mike Veteran Member • Posts: 4,643
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.

tbcass wrote:

jidery wrote:

Yet its ahead of the 7D and not far behind the D7100 in terms of ISO. It's really not that bad compared to its competition.

123Mike is obsessed with digital noise so it may be acceptable to you and me, but not to him. I find other camera characteristics much more important and for me the A77 hits all the right buttons. For others who have a different set of want's and needs maybe not, maybe no APS-C camera.

Through the years I have noticed that for people who want the highest noise S/N ratio possible the best is never good enough for long.

For years now, my A57 has produced cleaner shots than I would have achieved with an A77. I like my family photo records that way. Video on both sucks. I need to fix that. Either Sony makes a better A-mount one, or I'm going A6000. I'm already on that path.

123Mike Veteran Member • Posts: 4,643
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.

Dennis wrote:

dlkeller wrote:

Does it really? Yes, I read the press release, but also know they are often overly inflated and optimistic. I would wait until the camera is actually out and has been thoroughly tested before being so certain of these claims.

Yes, I've read that repeatedly, too. The fastest AF claim is based on the 16-50 kit lens, and while there have been a couple impressive videos out, I'd want to know that it can track athletes, not moving across the frame, but being tracked by the photographer as they move closer/farther. Hockey players, ski jumpers, etc. Maybe it can, and maybe the technology really is ready to replace SLT (and then to sell lots of sensor to Nikon) but right now the early claims about the a6000 are just hopeful; not convincing just yet. In the A6000, people are comparing it to the NEX-6 and other CSCs. In an Alpha body, people will be comparing it to competing DSLRs.

For me, the AF performance of the A6000 will probably be good enough. I'm tracking kids running around mostly. And I need good video. That, plus good quality indoor photos without flash. And then bonus are adapters opening up some new doors.

123Mike Veteran Member • Posts: 4,643
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.
2

jidery wrote:

123Mike wrote:

Dennis wrote:

My thinking is: if PDAF-on-sensor is ready for prime time and they can make a truly mirrorless camera with the AF performance everyone expects from a '7' series and maybe boost the frame rate in the process, then go for it. If not, then wait. 2015 or 2016 would be fine ... it will still be out before Nikon replaces the D300

The A6000 shows that on-sensor-pdaf *IS* prime time. It apparently runs circles around the A77 for auto focus performance. In fact, the claim is that it has the fastest auto focus ever conceived of any brand any time.

The low light performance of the A77 isn't very good. DXO rates it pretty low. Video performance is dismal. Fact it, it's getting antiquated.

Yet its ahead of the 7D and not far behind the D7100 in terms of ISO. It's really not that bad compared to its competition.

Looking at comparisons on DPR, I can clearly see, without any doubt, that the A77 is quite a bit worse for noise than both the 7D and 7100. In fact, it's *QUITE* decisively so. Sometimes there are those close calls. This is not a close call - *AT ALL*. They BOTH a crushing blow to the A77 for noise. No debatable.

nandbytes Veteran Member • Posts: 5,972
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.

tbcass wrote:

You will never be happy with any camera for long because in your mind what is the best today will surely "suck" tomorrow. I actually feel sorry for you.

Totally missed my point. Just because the other cameras from other brands are "bad" that is not a reason for a company to not release a better camera.

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123Mike Veteran Member • Posts: 4,643
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.

tbcass wrote:

You will never be happy with any camera for long because in your mind what is the best today will surely "suck" tomorrow. I actually feel sorry for you.

The A57 has served me well. It was for nearly two years a camera where I felt it was better than anything offered from the competition even at double the price. Technology has now changed enough, where it's become time to make a step forward. Once that's done, I'll be content with living inside its boundaries. I have to know and feel that the step I'm taking gets me in the current-good zone. I feel that the A6000 provides that. To me, it's one of those break-through milestone products. The A33 was that for me, and so was the A57. There were a few close calls on almost making the jump to an A77. Around Christmas, here in Canada, at Henrys they were selling *NEW* A77s at $750 that included 2 year (Sony standard in Canada for the SLTs) warranty. But... the noise thing made me worried that my indoor shots would become worse than from my A57 (I would have), and video only goes to ISO 1600 which was the ultimate deal breaker for me. The A77 just did not feel like that milesteone type product to me, not from the A57. From the A33, yes.

Anyway, we're all different and have different points of view. I'm just sharing mine.

tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 38,813
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.

But the referenced cameras are excellent, far from bad.
--
Tom

Look at the picture, not the pixels
------------
Miss use of the ability to do 100% pixel peeping is the bane of digital photography because it causes people to fret over inconsequential issues.

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

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123Mike Veteran Member • Posts: 4,643
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.

tbcass wrote:

123Mike wrote:In fact, the claim is that it has the fastest auto focus ever conceived of any brand any time.

I'll believe that only when I see it in reliable tests, not Sony's exaggerated claims. As is the A77 is extremely fast and keeps up with anything I try on it.

I admit that I find this claim a little dubious. Perhaps under ideal conditions. But from the reviews, I'm seeing reports that it focuses very well, and snappy, not laggy, and does AF tracked video well. That's all I needed to know to make me feel it meets my needs.

nandbytes Veteran Member • Posts: 5,972
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.

Chris Malcolm wrote:

nandbytes wrote:

jidery wrote:

123Mike wrote:

Dennis wrote:

My thinking is: if PDAF-on-sensor is ready for prime time and they can make a truly mirrorless camera with the AF performance everyone expects from a '7' series and maybe boost the frame rate in the process, then go for it. If not, then wait. 2015 or 2016 would be fine ... it will still be out before Nikon replaces the D300

The A6000 shows that on-sensor-pdaf *IS* prime time. It apparently runs circles around the A77 for auto focus performance. In fact, the claim is that it has the fastest auto focus ever conceived of any brand any time.

The low light performance of the A77 isn't very good. DXO rates it pretty low. Video performance is dismal. Fact it, it's getting antiquated.

Yet its ahead of the 7D and not far behind the D7100 in terms of ISO. It's really not that bad compared to its competition.

This and OP thread is so far the funniest of its kind lol.

"Rest of the cameras suck so I don't mind have one that sucks less".

I dont want a less sucky camera, I want the best possible and I hope sony is the one to have it.

This is the problem. The best camera rarely holds its title for longer than a year. Models and makers keep leapfrogging one another in the various aspects of bestness. But even if I could afford to buy the best camera every time a new best arrived it would be pointless. It takes me at least two years to learn how to get the best from a new camera.

It's not unusual for me to stumble across an unexpected feature or method which uses a combination of features which makes a certain kind of shot so much easier and better well after a year of ownership. It's not unusual for me to look back at an excellent photograph taken years ago with inferior technology and go back there with my latest gear to take a better one. And find that I can't do it. I've got better resolution, better micro contrast, highest dynamic range, etc., but the light is different in a subtle but rather important way.

I find cameras are like rough country boots. I have to use them for a long time before we become well fitted to each other. And once we've become good trusted familiar friends a new friend has to be outstandingly superior to be preferred to the old one. I recall the time I took some friends up a steep hill in ankle deep snow. I had good boots on and wasn't slipping. A friend kept slipping and falling, cursing his smoother soles. His feet were the same size as mine. So we swopped boots. He still kept slipping, but not as much. And I wasn't slipping at all, and still moving faster than him.

Sometimes skill and technique is a lot more important than which camera it is.

You also missed my point! We are not talking about skill here - the title and post does NOT say - "I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year because I am an awesome photographer".

Just because other cameras are "bad" or equally to good to the current camera it is not a reason for sony to not release a better camera. In fact I am happy they released A6K, did they they sit and think "well the nex 6 and 7 are good cameras, A7/r is good, lets not release a fast AF till we totally out classed"

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 38,813
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.

You do realize that I disagree along with several others so it is certainly debatable.
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Tom

Look at the picture, not the pixels
------------
Miss use of the ability to do 100% pixel peeping is the bane of digital photography because it causes people to fret over inconsequential issues.

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

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nandbytes Veteran Member • Posts: 5,972
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.

tbcass wrote:

But the referenced cameras are excellent, far from bad.
--
Tom

Look at the picture, not the pixels
------------
Miss use of the ability to do 100% pixel peeping is the bane of digital photography because it causes people to fret over inconsequential issues.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/63683676@N07/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

I agree hence I said "bad". My argument applies to any camera brand canikon shouldn't sit on thier butts either while sony takes over the world with mirrorless AF (they may not just giving an example). Just saying it should be a proactive market, someone saying there is no need for replacement as the competition is equally good (or bad/worst!) is a bad argument IMO. Good thing companies especially sony doesn't follow this philosophy.

If the other camera brands haven't caught up (according to OP, not my words) then its more of a reason sony should be proactive and increase that gap to break the duopoly. Instead if they just stay silent and wait for canikon to catch up, do you really think that makes good business sense?

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123Mike Veteran Member • Posts: 4,643
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.

tbcass wrote:

You do realize that I disagree along with several others so it is certainly debatable.

The good thing about evidence, is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.

tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 38,813
Re: I don't think the A77 needs to be replaced this year, here is why.

I understand and agree that from a business sense companies must move forward even if many of us don't need anything better.
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Tom

Look at the picture, not the pixels
------------
Miss use of the ability to do 100% pixel peeping is the bane of digital photography because it causes people to fret over inconsequential issues.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/63683676@N07/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

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