1.4 / 58 hast just been tested on Lenstip

Started Feb 15, 2014 | Discussions
Stacey_K
Stacey_K Veteran Member • Posts: 8,708
Re: 1.4 / 58 hast just been tested on Lenstip

jimoyer wrote:

Patrick McMahon wrote:

Uh-oh... should I return it?

Nope, just send it to me. I'll take care of "disposing" of it for you.

I don't know that I'm necessarily sick of sites like these....they certainly hold SOME value....but I am sick of how much importance people tend to place on them. "Hard" numbers certainly hold value and I'm not going to try to diminish that, but when dealing with the things we are in photography, there are also things that the "hard" numbers don't show. This is a perfect example of that.

Bah, ignore the posted images at normal viewing size, why should anyone care about that? What matters is viewing images at 100% and the resolution numbers "your favorite" online website can pull out of the lens... Seriously -that- is what most of these "reviews" focus on or at least the people reading them. It's why I first look to see what photo zone says, then I go look at samples.

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Stacey

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Stacey_K
Stacey_K Veteran Member • Posts: 8,708
Re: Why would anyone care? Of course many do

They have totally swung and missed testing several well regarded lenses in the past, they have zero credibility with me. Same with DXO yet people seem convinced by all the fancy charts and 3D graphs these people know what they are doing. I've seen sample shots from both these sites that were clearly OOF as "examples" of the performance one can expect. Just because "many" people value their opinion, many also laugh at them

And on the "How a lens renders other than strict 'testing'", is WAY more important IMHO than "sharpness". There are plenty of very sharp lenses I wouldn't own on a bet. It's why testing like they and a couple of the other "ultra techy" sites do is almost pointless to a photographer.

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Stacey

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valdazis Forum Member • Posts: 61
Re: list of the other reviews - all of them tell more or less the same:
10

Stacey_K wrote:

valdazis wrote:

http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/nikon_afs_nikkor_58mm_f_1_4_g_review/conclusion/

http://slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/1660/cat/12

http://www.ephotozine.com/article/nikon-af-s-nikkor-58mm-f-1-4g-lens-review-23633

http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/nikon-58mm-f1-4g/6

none of them give excellent value... for £1599 - no more comments

*sigh* of course it isn't a "good value".

I guess you missed quotes like " For applications such as environmental portraits or low-light shooting at large apertures, it's superb." etc. Total fail test sites like slrgear and lenstip measure sharpness and a couple of other "attributes" and assign a rating based on that oh and heavily weigh in the price. A photographer would "value" a lens like this, a techy gear head who loves to pixel peep at the minimum money spent won't.

do you own a photo gear test lab? or work in one? How do you know which test sites are "total fail" which ones are not? Have you inspected them? what are you basing your statements about this lens on...?

oh, and most of these reviews state that it exactly under performs in low light and at large apertures, so kinda denies your quote *sigh*

I am no techy gear head, but I like to know everything possible about the product I am going to buy so I read reviews and compare non processed samples, that's how I make my conclusions, basing on the information provided by different and competent sources.

I see that your opinion is more based on emotions related to company's legacy, price pressure and thinking that expensive product should be good, when in reality it is not. And it's very understandable, because Nikon is a reputable company and people who invested in their products believe in it, but if Nikon continue with this attitude we will surely see the consequences in the future.

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benjaminblack
benjaminblack Contributing Member • Posts: 589
Re: list of the other reviews - all of them tell more or less the same:
4

These forums are losing value. They're filled with envious onlookers who resent working professionals. The 58 is a tool. If you need a tool for your job, you get it, you use it. If it's unsatisfactory, you dispose of it, and get something that does the job. It's really as simple as that.

A small group of professional who use the 58 as a tool in their kit have formed communities on the web. Communities where envy and bias do not play a role. In these communities you can share your own results. Those are the results that matter. I trust the experiences of men and women who use this lens in the field, not in labs:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/nikon58mm14g/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/224085091097753/

https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/103789259521094339660

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 4,624
Re: list of the other reviews - all of them tell more or less the same:
3

benjaminblack wrote:

(1) These forums are losing value. They're filled with envious onlookers who resent working professionals. The 58 is a tool. If you need a tool for your job, you get it, you use it. If it's unsatisfactory, you dispose of it, and get something that does the job. It's really as simple as that.

(2) A small group of professional people (pro or not) who use the 58 as a tool in their kit have formed communities on the web. Communities where envy and bias do not play a role. In these communities you can share your own results. Those are the results that matter. I trust the experiences of men and women who use this lens in the field, not in labs:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/nikon58mm14g/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/224085091097753/

https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/103789259521094339660

Part (2), fair comment, rendition vs lab, bearing in mind sample variation and that the issues of 'corner' sharpness in a lab test may be exactly contrary to the 'rendition' characteristic, so not applicable.

Part (1)...strange rant, the gist being, if you criticize a lens or disagree on something, you 'resent working professionals'... Thus, 'the forums are losing value'????

And yes, of course the lens is a tool, as any other.

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Wishing You Good Light.

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 4,624
Re: Of course many do Real World vs Tests
2

Stacey_K wrote:

(1)They have totally swung and missed testing several well regarded lenses in the past, they have zero credibility with me.....

(2 There are plenty of very sharp lenses I wouldn't own on a bet. It's why testing like they and a couple of the other "ultra techy" sites do is almost pointless to a photographer.

(1) Such as...?

(2) I can agree with this for sure. The thing is, I suspect that the Lenstip result is due to one of two things (or both)

- sample variation

- their test method does not take into account, that the lens is designed to give maximum effect for portraits /out of focus, 3 D effect. The specific output may not be everyone's cup of tea.

So, the progressive corner border and corner sharrness test, as per charts looks so bad on the chart, MAY actually be due to the design.

Now, if this is so, why do some lenses with excellent 3D ness and bokeh etc, fare better in the border/ corner sharpness test?

Such as the Zeiss Otus :

http://www.lenstip.com/390.4-Lens_review-Carl_Zeiss_Otus_55_mm_f_1.4_ZE_ZF.2_Image_resolution.html

Real world by 'whomever' (amateurs or pros irrelevant).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/carlzeisslenses/sets/72157635236491881/

The Zeiss clearly shows excellent real world use, 3 Dness, etc, and still cleans up on the Lenstip Test.

BUT, we can see that the Zeiss at maximum aperture, also shows 'test weakness' in the borders on full frame. Again, may confirm that testing such lenses AT THE 1.4 aperture, is missing the point, if we accept that this is design specific. But the result is clearly much better than the Nikon AT ALL apertures.

Which is why I again wonder about sample variation with the Nikon (as surely we might expect that on stopping down the Nikon would would improve).

But, some may say that comparing a USD 1,800 lens to a USD 4,000 lens is unfair.

But, it is just a comparison,  and in reality, there is nothing wrong with analysing, indeed analysis is what makes us understand more.

Cheers.

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Wishing You Good Light.

valdazis Forum Member • Posts: 61
Re: list of the other reviews - all of them tell more or less the same:
2

benjaminblack wrote:

These forums are losing value. They're filled with envious onlookers who resent working professionals. The 58 is a tool. If you need a tool for your job, you get it, you use it. If it's unsatisfactory, you dispose of it, and get something that does the job. It's really as simple as that.

A small group of professional who use the 58 as a tool in their kit have formed communities on the web. Communities where envy and bias do not play a role. In these communities you can share your own results. Those are the results that matter. I trust the experiences of men and women who use this lens in the field, not in labs:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/nikon58mm14g/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/224085091097753/

https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/103789259521094339660

seriously people, what are you basing your statements on? "These forums are losing value. They're filled with envious onlookers who resent working professionals." - where did you take that information from? is this your ruminated idea out of nothing?

All the lenses are tools. Simple as that.

Re: small communities. This concept is very dangerous. First of all, do you really think that devoted Nikon user especially from the "special community" will have unbiased opinion about his/her newly acquired expensive lens? Don't be so naive. Unless this lens would fill the purpose to create some kind of "photog masonry" which is a ridiculous idea. I suggest to look at the whole think from the company's angle, it's not about this lens, it's about the Nikon's strategies and production generally. I haven't seen any samples from new Fuji 56/1.2, but almost sure that it will smoke this Nikon 58 out even on crop sensor and I'm only speculating basing on the Fuji activity last few years, and most likely I am going to be right.

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 4,624
Re: Of course many do Real World vs Tests and to not be unfair
2

Bajerunner wrote:

Stacey_K wrote:

(1)They have totally swung and missed testing several well regarded lenses in the past, they have zero credibility with me.....

(2 There are plenty of very sharp lenses I wouldn't own on a bet. It's why testing like they and a couple of the other "ultra techy" sites do is almost pointless to a photographer.

(1) Such as...?

(2) I can agree with this for sure. The thing is, I suspect that the Lenstip result is due to one of two things (or both)

- sample variation

- their test method does not take into account, that the lens is designed to give maximum effect for portraits /out of focus, 3 D effect. The specific output may not be everyone's cup of tea.

So, the progressive corner border and corner sharrness test, as per charts looks so bad on the chart, MAY actually be due to the design.

Now, if this is so, why do some lenses with excellent 3D ness and bokeh etc, fare better in the border/ corner sharpness test?

Such as the Zeiss Otus :

http://www.lenstip.com/390.4-Lens_review-Carl_Zeiss_Otus_55_mm_f_1.4_ZE_ZF.2_Image_resolution.html

Real world by 'whomever' (amateurs or pros irrelevant).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/carlzeisslenses/sets/72157635236491881/

The Zeiss clearly shows excellent real world use, 3 Dness, etc, and still cleans up on the Lenstip Test.

BUT, we can see that the Zeiss at maximum aperture, also shows 'test weakness' in the borders on full frame. Again, may confirm that testing such lenses AT THE 1.4 aperture, is missing the point, if we accept that this is design specific. But the result is clearly much better than the Nikon AT ALL apertures.

Which is why I again wonder about sample variation with the Nikon (as surely we might expect that on stopping down the Nikon would would improve).

But, some may say that comparing a USD 1,800 lens to a USD 4,000 lens is unfair.

But, it is just a comparison, and in reality, there is nothing wrong with analysing, indeed analysis is what makes us understand more.

Cheers.

To be fair and compare the lens, not to a USD 4,000 lens but now to a USD 500 lens...(discussing optical quality here, don't mind AF vs MF)

Voigtlander 58mm 1.4:

Lenstip resolution chart:

http://www.lenstip.com/265.4-Lens_review-Voigtlander_Nokton_58_mm_f_1.4_SL_II_Image_resolution.html

The Flickr public pool (whomever posts):

http://www.flickr.com/groups/cv58nokton/

Good on the chart, Lovely in real world.

Again, concurrence between chart and real world.

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Wishing You Good Light.

Pallke Regular Member • Posts: 157
OMG... Lenstip... they are fumblers without a clue.
1

Look carefully and you will see that they are heavily biased towards Canon. But even then they have absolutely no clue how to test in a proper way.

Highly unrecommended !

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best regards
Pallke

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jtra Contributing Member • Posts: 931
Re: 1.4 / 58 hast just been tested on Lenstip
2

Lens sharpness is too overated. Especially at apertures like f/1.4 at or near image corner where most of the image is usually out of focus - which also means that how out of focus looks (bokeh) is quite important. Nice background bokeh is often produced by undercorrected spherical aberration and that one is enemy of sharpness. See more in my page on bokeh:
http://jtra.cz/stuff/essays/bokeh/index.html

valdazis Forum Member • Posts: 61
Re: OMG... Lenstip... they are fumblers without a clue.
2

Pallke wrote:

Look carefully and you will see that they are heavily biased towards Canon. But even then they have absolutely no clue how to test in a proper way.

Highly unrecommended !

Can you explain how did you come up with such a conclusion?

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Patrick McMahon
Patrick McMahon Senior Member • Posts: 1,276
Re: 1.4 / 58 hast just been tested on Lenstip

ormdig wrote:

This photo and the other 58mms in your gallery exhibit the qualities I am talking about, Patrick, thank you,

Pete I really appreciate your compliment. I try an put up images to let people see real world examples, sometimes you take your lumps for it. Thank you as well Bajerunner.

For me I was completely blown away by some photographer's impressions and photos with the lens. Namely Nasim's and Sam Hurd's. Those images are simply out of this world, beautiful, moving and inspirational all rolled up.

At least a couple of people and I believe- though I may be wrong, dpreview's review said- "Of course this lens is going to test bad by virtue of intended design." That's all I needed to hear.

I am also not a fan of sharpness for sharpness' sake which is propounded in the forums. I embrace the art side of it and that is why I find myself- with cameras too- looking to the impressions of pros that I respect and that I know shoot a lot.

I believe mechanical reviewers have their place, but in my opinion they are increasingly attempting to compete with one another for clicks and referrals and this is influencing their spin.

It is an amazing lens.

(As an aside I am floored that reviewers of a portrait lens in Poland, which has more beautiful women per capita than anywhere else in the world, took photos of mailboxes and store fronts.)

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Shaun_Nyc
Shaun_Nyc Senior Member • Posts: 2,279
Re: 1.4 / 58 hast just been tested on Lenstip
11

Patrick McMahon wrote:

fotobert wrote:

Don't read if you have already bought one.

Uh-oh... should I return it?

Cause I JUST LOVE IT!

Thank God for AF

couldn't any 50mm take this picture for about 1400.00 less ?

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Stacey_K
Stacey_K Veteran Member • Posts: 8,708
Re: 1.4 / 58 hast just been tested on Lenstip

Patrick McMahon wrote:

but in my opinion they are increasingly attempting to compete with one another for clicks and referrals and this is influencing their spin.

And this is -exactly- what we see here. This is no different than what Ken Rockwell does.

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Stacey

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Patrick McMahon
Patrick McMahon Senior Member • Posts: 1,276
grumble grumble grumble

Not the Otus.

There are some others in my gallery but to answer your question- yes. They will vary on what their output is. I have the Sigma 50mm 1.4 and it is amazing and for the price point... absolutely stellar. As far as portrait/ environmental portrait I love this one.

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Stacey_K
Stacey_K Veteran Member • Posts: 8,708
They are missing the point..

benjaminblack wrote:

These forums are losing value. They're filled with envious onlookers who resent working professionals. The 58 is a tool. If you need a tool for your job, you get it, you use it. If it's unsatisfactory, you dispose of it, and get something that does the job. It's really as simple as that.

I'm a big analogy person.

I used to work as a service writer at a car dealership. Most of the good mechanics bought "snap on" tools. They are very expensive but there is a reason these guys buy them. Of course amateur mechanics buy something like craftsman tools for 15% of the cost and say these same type "that snap on 14mm wrench doesn't do anything that couldn't be done with any 14mm wrench" while not understanding the real differences. You can measure both in a lab and they seem the same. Actually you might find the cheaper tools are closer to some "exact spec" but that doesn't make them better.

I personally am not interested in buying the 58 and do feel the price is too high. But if next year Nikon has lets say a $300 rebate on it, I would be tempted. The images it produces are lovely, I can't say the same for the 50mm f1.8G or the 50mm f1.4G, both of which I have used.

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Stacey

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larrywilson
larrywilson Veteran Member • Posts: 6,397
Re: They are missing the point..

Stacey, my father in law was a mechanic and used "Snap On" tools.  I agree that the Nikon 58 is an excellent tool for certain types of photography, I think a little too expensive.  Yes this forum does concentrate on sharpness blowing up an image to 100%.  I shoot landscapes a lot with a Zeiss 25mm f2.8 lens and it tests out horrible on charts, but I love this lens for 3 dimensional subjects and close up focusing.

Get the tool that works for you.  I could not really afford a d4 but I shoot a lot of fast moving subjects such as bif, its expensive but is the best tool for me at this time.

Larry

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low3llSD Regular Member • Posts: 264
Re: Why would anyone care? Of course many do
2

I'm starting to find what sites actually do tests beyond charts and starting to get real world info on photog sites than chart shooting tech sites.

Sharpness is way too overrated. The folks who have never shot with this lens or with a lens with character won't understand or probably just don't create artistic photography.

I see why sharp lenses via mtf charts are so popular. It gives the amateur photographer the "chance" to FINALLY get photos 'sharp' or 'in focus'. The forums are littered with posts as such. Which leads me to believe they've had bad technique all along till they've acquired a lens such as the Sigma 35. In the case of a 50mm f1.8g, that focal length is much easier to snap the camera to get images in focus.

The character lenses in the right hands have created some of the most stunning and fresh new photography that ive seen. In the case of the 58G, it brings back so many memoirs of that classic look of new world images. Something that the creative side in people should appreciate. It does for me anyway.

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Josh152 Senior Member • Posts: 2,018
A great reivew for SIGMA

The sigma 50mm art is sharping up to most likely be the best AF lens in the 50mm range on the market just as their 35mm is the best 35mm. Optically anyway.

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