ZS40/TZ60 vs the competition

Started Feb 14, 2014 | Discussions
RemyW Regular Member • Posts: 187
Re: Retail Price

Ianperegian wrote:

RemyW wrote:

Ianperegian wrote:

RemyW wrote:

Apparently it costs more to ship to Europe, or we got a seasalt-tax. The only price I have seen so far is 449 EURO's in NL. A money exchange bureau would be happy with such a US$ to EUR conversion profit...

Ouch!! That’s US $615. The price in Australia for the TZ60 is Au $600 (US $540), and in the UK it is GBP 350 (US $585). It’s hard to understand how such large differences in prices can be justified.

Ian

Ah, wait, they just changed it to 399 EUR (excl shipping) in NL, which is about US$546, still about US$100 more than the US price...

Like I said, my only guess to the price difference is the seasalt-tax. We have to pay for all the extra seasalt that is accumulated on the way here by boat...

Well, the cameras are made in Japan, so the shipping distances don’t account for the differences. Maybe the sea is much saltier near the Netherlands?

Getting back to reality, we pay 10% GST (= VAT) but that only explains half of the difference. I think though that in Europe your VAT is even higher.

Well, I must admit, we pay 21% VAT in NL, which does take a bite...

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Aberaeron Veteran Member • Posts: 6,643
Re: Retail Price

RemyW wrote:

Ianperegian wrote:

RemyW wrote:

Ianperegian wrote:

RemyW wrote:

Apparently it costs more to ship to Europe, or we got a seasalt-tax. The only price I have seen so far is 449 EURO's in NL. A money exchange bureau would be happy with such a US$ to EUR conversion profit...

Ouch!! That’s US $615. The price in Australia for the TZ60 is Au $600 (US $540), and in the UK it is GBP 350 (US $585). It’s hard to understand how such large differences in prices can be justified.

Ian

Ah, wait, they just changed it to 399 EUR (excl shipping) in NL, which is about US$546, still about US$100 more than the US price...

Like I said, my only guess to the price difference is the seasalt-tax. We have to pay for all the extra seasalt that is accumulated on the way here by boat...

Well, the cameras are made in Japan, so the shipping distances don’t account for the differences. Maybe the sea is much saltier near the Netherlands?

Getting back to reality, we pay 10% GST (= VAT) but that only explains half of the difference. I think though that in Europe your VAT is even higher.

Well, I must admit, we pay 21% VAT in NL, which does take a bite...

20% in UK. All retail prices are quoted inclusive of tax, although business to business sales are quoted net of VAT because certain products are eligible to have the tax reclaimed if a genuine business expense. There are anomalies such as food in the UK has no VAT unless eaten on commercial premises, neither has books or children's shoes I think.

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Ianperegian
OP Ianperegian Veteran Member • Posts: 3,597
Re: Retail Price

Aberaeron wrote:

RemyW wrote:

Ianperegian wrote:

RemyW wrote:

Ianperegian wrote:

RemyW wrote:

Apparently it costs more to ship to Europe, or we got a seasalt-tax. The only price I have seen so far is 449 EURO's in NL. A money exchange bureau would be happy with such a US$ to EUR conversion profit...

Ouch!! That’s US $615. The price in Australia for the TZ60 is Au $600 (US $540), and in the UK it is GBP 350 (US $585). It’s hard to understand how such large differences in prices can be justified.

Ian

Ah, wait, they just changed it to 399 EUR (excl shipping) in NL, which is about US$546, still about US$100 more than the US price...

Like I said, my only guess to the price difference is the seasalt-tax. We have to pay for all the extra seasalt that is accumulated on the way here by boat...

Well, the cameras are made in Japan, so the shipping distances don’t account for the differences. Maybe the sea is much saltier near the Netherlands?

Getting back to reality, we pay 10% GST (= VAT) but that only explains half of the difference. I think though that in Europe your VAT is even higher.

Well, I must admit, we pay 21% VAT in NL, which does take a bite...

20% in UK. All retail prices are quoted inclusive of tax

So, comparing USA price at $449:

Europe: US $449 x 1.21 (VAT) = US $543; price in NL 399 EUR = US $546; so about the same.

UK: US $449 x 1.20 (VAT) = US $539; price in UK 350 GBP = US $585; so US $46 more in UK.

Australia: US $449 x 1.10 (GST) = US 494; price in Aust Au $600 = US $540; so US $46 more in Aust.

It seems that the extra cost in Aust and the UK is about the same, at US $46.

Ian

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cainn24 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,892
Re: Retail Price

Ianperegian wrote:

Australia: US $449 x 1.10 (GST) = US 494; price in Aust Au $600 = US $540; so US $46 more in Aust.

Ted's price has come down to AU$549 now, and if it holds I would expect some of the discount stores (like DCW, CamBuy, discountcameras.com.au etc) to be closer to the $500 mark.

I'll probably just haggle at my local Teds though anyway, as I always do.

If I get a TZ60 that is.  Haven't quite decided yet.  Although if I could go out and buy a silver one tonight I probably would.  Next week I might change my mind.

Ianperegian
OP Ianperegian Veteran Member • Posts: 3,597
Re: Retail Price

cainn24 wrote:

Ted's price has come down to AU$549 now

That’s equivalent to US $494, which is still US $45 more than the USA price, but it’s getting better!

Ian

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windmillgolfer
windmillgolfer Forum Pro • Posts: 15,124
Re: Retail Price

Enquired at local(ish) camera shop.  TZ60 expected sometime in March, their price £329.

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Stuart
Also at http://www.flickr.com/photos/dieselgolfer/
Mr Ichiro Kitao, please upgrade the FZ50

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Ianperegian
OP Ianperegian Veteran Member • Posts: 3,597
Re: Retail Price

Thanks Stuart, that’s also an improvement on the previous UK 350 GBP price.

Ian

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Jerry045
Jerry045 Veteran Member • Posts: 9,483
Re: Retail Price

Just for info..  In the US, most states have a sales tax that runs from 7% to 10% or so. If you buy mail order from an out of state company, they don't collect the sales tax, which you are supposed to voluntarily declare. Most people don't and the state tax people are not happy as they are not getting all that revenue. Some states are forcing companies like Amazon to collect the taxes if they ship into their state. Local stores are not happy about no taxes on mail order as they are forced to collect the taxes and their prices appear higher because of it, putting them at a disadvantage price wise.

Lots of folks will go to a local store, fondle the goods then order on line from an out of state company to avoid paying the taxes. This does not please the local merchants.

Even still, you folks living outside the US appear to have much higher taxes on your purchases.

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Jerry

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Ken Regular Member • Posts: 205
Re: Retail Price

If States with their tax were not so greedy they wouldn't loose sales to the internet.

There only hurting the people in those local stores not the guy buying the item.

I don't think someone will buy on line to save 1 or 2% but on big ticket items

sales tax in the 7% range could make a difference.

But that's another story for the voting boot.

Ken

cainn24 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,892
$AU469.00@DCW

Ianperegian wrote:

cainn24 wrote:

Ted's price has come down to AU$549 now

That’s equivalent to US $494, which is still US $45 more than the USA price, but it’s getting better!

DCW now have it listed for $469.00: http://www.digitalcamerawarehouse.com.au/prod10776.htm

I got excited when I saw the "Buy Now" option and called them up to see if they actually had any in stock at any of their stores, but all the cupboards were bare. The rep I spoke to informed me that the stock was expected on or around March 20.

Sergeg
Sergeg Senior Member • Posts: 2,668
Re: ZS40/TZ60 vs the competition

"Sony sells their name and MP, with their classic over processed water-color JPGs."

Ha, just had to chime in on your comment, I got sold on the MP when the A77 came out, hated the mash potatoed JPG's so sold it promptly. Pity, because it remains one of the most feature laden APS cameras on the market, and the video side was quite decent.

It's unfathomable how a manufacturer which sells their imaging hardware to others, cannot get the best results from their own product.

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Ianperegian
OP Ianperegian Veteran Member • Posts: 3,597
Re: $AU469.00@DCW

cainn24 wrote:

Ianperegian wrote:

cainn24 wrote:

Ted's price has come down to AU$549 now

That’s equivalent to US $494, which is still US $45 more than the USA price, but it’s getting better!

DCW now have it listed for $469.00: http://www.digitalcamerawarehouse.com.au/prod10776.htm

I got excited when I saw the "Buy Now" option and called them up to see if they actually had any in stock at any of their stores, but all the cupboards were bare. The rep I spoke to informed me that the stock was expected on or around March 20.

Thanks for that! It’s a very good price (= US $419) and they’ve been around a long time. I’ve bought from them in the past.

Ian

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cainn24 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,892
$AU444.02@discountcameras.com.au

http://www.discountcameras.com.au/view_product/55535

Free Australia-wide shipping too.

For those who don't know, Discount Cameras are owned/operated by Michaels camera store.  Olympus Australia informed me of this when I called to check if they were an authorized distributor selling local stock, which they are.  I subsequently ordered an Olympus 75-300 II lens from them without issue.

The TZ60 will also be available from CamBuy for $459.00: http://www.cambuy.com.au/panasonic-lumix-dmc-tz60-digital-camera-silver/

cainn24 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,892
Per-Order Anxiety Disorder
MarioV Veteran Member • Posts: 6,757
Re: Per-Order Anxiety Disorder

cainn24 wrote:

http://newcameranews.com/2014/02/27/public-health-warning-poad-outbreak-reported/

LOL

This thread is a sort of POAD's Anonymous meeting.

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cainn24 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,892
TZ60 vs LF1 vs LX7 @ 10MP

I did this for myself out of curiosity mostly, but also for a little perspective. All images were obtained from imaging-resource.com:

Base ISO:

1600 ISO:

The lens performance of all of these cameras varies at different focal lengths and f-stops of course so there's certainly nothing definitive about this comparison.

The larger sensors come out in front, as expected, although I'd say that normalizing the resolution is an interesting exercise.

kkardster
kkardster Veteran Member • Posts: 9,040
Re: TZ60 vs LF1 vs LX7 @ 10MP

cainn24 wrote:

I did this for myself out of curiosity mostly, but also for a little perspective. All images were obtained from imaging-resource.com:

...and they are copyrighted by I-R as well.  You should have linked them here (though that makes comparison more difficult).

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cainn24 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,892
Re: TZ60 vs LF1 vs LX7 @ 10MP

kkardster wrote:

cainn24 wrote:

I did this for myself out of curiosity mostly, but also for a little perspective. All images were obtained from imaging-resource.com:

...and they are copyrighted by I-R as well. You should have linked them here (though that makes comparison more difficult).

There's no way I could have linked to downsampled images because imaging-resource don't provide them.

Anyway, I don't think what I've done here goes against the spirit of what we are all collectively trying to achieve, imaging-resource.com included.

Ianperegian
OP Ianperegian Veteran Member • Posts: 3,597
Re: TZ60 vs LF1 vs LX7 @ 10MP

That’s interesting, thanks for doing that. I took the liberty of comparing those 10MP images side-by-side.

Base ISO viewed at 100%:

1600 ISO viewed at 100%:

There isn’t a lot of difference, as you said. The WB differs a little. and to my eyes the LX7 has a slight advantage but it isn’t by a huge amount. I would say that the ZS40 comes next and then the LF1, but again there isn’t much in it. Also, that’s at 100% viewing, and the differences would be even less at normal viewing sizes.

I think it demonstrates that IMHO, it’s not possible to say with certainty that “more MP always means worse IQ” for small sensor models. (By “small" there, I mean wrt DSLRs.) The greater number of pixels generally means an increased resolution (in absolute lines per mm) but that is offset by the smaller pixel size tending to increase noise (especially at higher ISO) and the effects of diffraction.

So, it seems to be something of a “balancing act”, which also includes very importantly the quality of the processing.

Ian

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danielsonkin
danielsonkin Forum Pro • Posts: 11,713
Re: TZ60 vs LF1 vs LX7 @ 10MP

Ianperegian wrote:

That’s interesting, thanks for doing that. I took the liberty of comparing those 10MP images side-by-side.

Base ISO viewed at 100%:

1600 ISO viewed at 100%:

There isn’t a lot of difference, as you said. The WB differs a little. and to my eyes the LX7 has a slight advantage but it isn’t by a huge amount. I would say that the ZS40 comes next and then the LF1, but again there isn’t much in it. Also, that’s at 100% viewing, and the differences would be even less at normal viewing sizes.

I think it demonstrates that IMHO, it’s not possible to say with certainty that “more MP always means worse IQ” for small sensor models. (By “small" there, I mean wrt DSLRs.) The greater number of pixels generally means an increased resolution (in absolute lines per mm) but that is offset by the smaller pixel size tending to increase noise (especially at higher ISO) and the effects of diffraction.

So, it seems to be something of a “balancing act”, which also includes very importantly the quality of the processing.

Ian

I saw these pictures too, Ian; and I was pretty darn impressed with the high ISO performance.  Looking forward to handling this new ZS.  Just a few more weeks to go.

Daniel

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