And THIS is why I'm switching to Fuji from Sony...

Started Feb 13, 2014 | Discussions
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Aethon Regular Member • Posts: 315
Re: As a company...

pew pew wrote:

57LowRider wrote:

pew pew wrote:

Its weird the hate sony gets in the Fuji forum, both systems have great cameras, jeez the fanboyism.

Undeserved, I'm sure. I was just thinking it was weird how many Sony threads there were in the Fuji forum, is this the overspill car-park?

I´m pretty sure thats not true, go there and see if you see a single tread about fuji in the recent history, and if you see any post might be someone considering buying a fuji.

There are lots of conversations on the Nikon forum when Canon brings out a hot new competitor, and vice-versa. That seems totally to be expected.  And honestly, I see just as much griping about Sony's lens strategy on the Sony forums as I do here.

Pointing out that Sony hasn't delivered on the NEX promise can't just be written off as hate if it's true.

Aethon Regular Member • Posts: 315
Re: As a company...

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

Also you realise FE lenses will work on APSc e-mount?

Apart from the fact that they are quite expensive, they make a lot of sense.

Say you buy 5 Fuji XF lenses. Great. Lovely. What happens when Fuji eventually offers a FF Xtrans or Organic Sensor? Fuji has already said XF won't do FF. I have tested that myself by physically holding a couple of XF lenses in front of my Sony A7r - you get a circle photo where the lens doesn't cover (by the way Sony and Fuji flange distance is almost the same 17.7mm veruss 18mm for Sony - I'd love an adapter that allows Emount and Xmount to interchange).

APSc Sony buyers can then accumulate FE lenses that when many upgrade to FF their lenses are useable and it also gets rid of a major objection to upgrading to FF - I only have APSc compatible lenses.

I think that's exactly why people like Fujifilm's strategy. It appears that every other company is prepared to compromise the full potential benefits of APS-C by only producing their best lenses in FF. Sony is moving to FE. Canon and Nikon have had a decade to build a full APS lineup and haven't bothered.

Maybe, as you suggest, this is because they intend to incentivize users to eventually upgrade to FF.  But you know what? I don't buy a camera system in order to be incentivized to upgrade. I've decided APS-C is the right format for me, so I just want an APS-C system that is high quality, with a full range of lenses that are as small and light as possible.

Right now, Fujifilm is the only manufacturer that has any credibility in offering to deliver what I want. Sad but true.

springsnow New Member • Posts: 23
Re: And THIS is why I'm switching to Fuji from Sony...

FE is still E-mount, so FE lenses can still work on the crop sensor cameras, right? So isn't this a good thing then, that future Sony E-mount lenses will be 100% compatible with both full-frame and crop cameras? Am I missing something here?

Aethon Regular Member • Posts: 315
Re: And THIS is why I'm switching to Fuji from Sony...
1

springsnow wrote:

FE is still E-mount, so FE lenses can still work on the crop sensor cameras, right? So isn't this a good thing then, that future Sony E-mount lenses will be 100% compatible with both full-frame and crop cameras? Am I missing something here?

Well, sure. If you are happy to use over-sized FF lenses on a crop-sensor camera.

But you can't pretend that it isn't a compromise. If you actively made a decision to buy a camera system in which you would have to "make do" to get the lenses you want, then fine.

I suspect many NEX buyers did not realise that such a decision was implicit in their purchase.

Clayton1985 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,521
Re: And THIS is why I'm switching to Fuji from Sony...

Aethon wrote:

springsnow wrote:

FE is still E-mount, so FE lenses can still work on the crop sensor cameras, right? So isn't this a good thing then, that future Sony E-mount lenses will be 100% compatible with both full-frame and crop cameras? Am I missing something here?

Well, sure. If you are happy to use over-sized FF lenses on a crop-sensor camera.

But you can't pretend that it isn't a compromise. If you actively made a decision to buy a camera system in which you would have to "make do" to get the lenses you want, then fine.

I suspect many NEX buyers did not realise that such a decision was implicit in their purchase.

It isn't always to "make do".   I used several FF lenses on my Nikon cameras when I had plenty of other options.   There is no way you can consider choosing to use the FE 55 f1.8 on a NEX APS-C in lieu of the 50 f1.8 E mount lens making do.  And sure you could technically call it a compromise but then again everything about cameras and lenses is a compromise.  Having the option to use the FE 55 f1.8 is a really nice compromise to have.

kewlguy
kewlguy Senior Member • Posts: 1,821
Re: And THIS is why I'm switching to Fuji from Sony...

mostly overpriced lenses. I just tried the new Zeiss FE 24-70/4 on A7R, not impressive for the price - sharp in the center, weak in the corners. I just hope that's just this pre-production sample... The 35/2.8 is way overpriced, too.

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springsnow New Member • Posts: 23
Re: And THIS is why I'm switching to Fuji from Sony...

The OP implied that Sony would no longer "support" APS-C cameras, which is not true as whatever future FE E-mount lens Sony released will still work on current E-mount APS-C cameras. That's all I'm pointing out, unless I miss something.

LaFonte Senior Member • Posts: 2,744
Re: And THIS is why I'm switching to Fuji from Sony...
1

LPoe wrote:

Reposting a post I made in another thread on thissame subject. Sums up my feelings about the two companies.

To me, Sony appears to be throwing a bunch of stuff on the wall to see what sticks. The problem is they are also (IMO) being incredibly indecisive. First there were the alpha cameras with SLT, The Then they had the NEX line and it was doing great from a sales standpoint but they seemed to abandon, and we got the A series, and now a new "NEX" camera. All the while there has been no real lens support. To me the whole thing says that they lack confidence in their ability to pick a successful direction. I don't think they will have a proper lens roster until they actually pick a platform and direction.

Contrast that with Fuji... the X-Pro 1 was announced in January 2012, just two years ago! In that time Fuji has developed a true photographic platform with entry, mid, and high level bodies. Top notch Prime and Zoom lenses, but also cheaper, more entry level zoom lenses. The latest addition of a weather sealed body, and within a few months weather sealed lenses to match. And of course there is that lens roadmap that has been surprisingly, though not 100% accurate.

When I look at the offerings from the two companies the phrase that comes to mind is "Comfortable in their own skin" Fuji is, Sony isn't.

Sony will pick something eventually and it'll probably be good, but how long is that gonna take?

At a certain point you're not buying a camera, you're investing in a system/platform. That's the real strength of Canikon. People are invested in the platform and the more lenses and accessories they have the harder it is to switch. Fuji is going all out to build their own platform and they're doing it through quality product design, unparalleled product support (Firmware for discontinued models, etc) and just plain old listening to their customers and actually acting on the feedback. Not only do they make high quality products, they also actually seem to care what we say! Amazing! That's why they get my money, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

-- hide signature --

Sony always did that trick with throwing stuff on wall. This is one of the assurance with sony. Every few years they have some new radical direction....but the purpose is to really sell the same thing multiple times to the same people. Works like charm so far. Even the battery sizes change so rapidly that you can't keep track with all the letters. I have plenty of sony gear and it is always a chore to find what fits in what and what can charge what.

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Mebyon K Contributing Member • Posts: 778
Re: And this is why I could be switching to Fuji from Nikon
1

I recently bought a X-E1 as, although I like my Nikon V1, I wanted better image quality and went looking with an open mind. The current offer on the X-E1 was very attractive and the 18-55 lens superb, but what sealed it was the fact that I was told that, although it had just been superseded, I could download updates from Fuji UK which would greatly improve the performance.

Posted on the home page of DPR this morning from the interview with Fuji's marketing manager.

"Yes but it in the long run customer trust is very important. We’re a relatively new brand and we need to build trust. There was some internal debate about the X100 update, and some people within Fujifilm didn’t think we should upgrade a discontinued model but we decided to do it anyway."

The above is exactly what Sony has failed to do, and Canon/Nikon are starting to do by ignoring DX with their push to get everyone to upgrade to FX.

As a D700 owner I had already realised that Nikon had ignored me, and all the other D700 owners, by making the upgrade path either a D600/610 or a D800, neither of which is a replacement. However, having used the X-E1 and been stunned by the standard of the jpegs, particularly when using the film modes; and given the road map showing the two f2.8 zooms appearing before the end of this year, I am seriously thinking about buying the new X-T1 as the D700 replacement.

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Mebyon K

(unknown member) Contributing Member • Posts: 578
Re: And THIS is why I'm switching to Fuji from Sony...

taz98spin wrote:

Sony is more focused on FF right now to care about APSC..

and rightly so

(unknown member) Contributing Member • Posts: 578
Re: And THIS is why I'm switching to Fuji from Sony...

khunfred wrote:

"At a certain point you're not buying a camera, you're investing in a system/platform. That's the real strength of Canikon. People are invested in the platform and the more lenses and accessories they have the harder it is to switch".

Sony has a huge system: cameras, TVS, microwaves, fridges...ahaha. Sony don't sell a camera. Sony sells a "Sony". I'm not kidding: it's a different approach of the market, maybe more consumerist. Each brand has a different philosophy. Everyone knows the Sony brand, even in the North pole. But for most of the people, Fuji is a mountain near Tokyo, not an innovative camera maker.

Even if I was very interested in the A7: putting a FF sensor in a so small body looks like magic. But after 6 months, what about the lens roadmap? What lenses and when?
So my next equipment will be 100% Fuji. Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks that this brand is managed with some brains who are "thinking" before "producing". Maybe I will miss 80/85mm lens that I used to shoot with, but I will deal without it.

6 months from release there will be more lenses available for the A7/R system than there were for the X-Pro1, Fuji still don't have any fast zooms that provide separation on a level at which even a FF F4 lens will.

many people bought in to the Fuji system for its OVF and that looks likely to be abandoned.

Sony has already released two very high quality weather sealed primes to match their weather sealed bodies, no waiting around for a few years, no firmware updates needed to make the camera usable.

Sony has got more right at the point of release than Fuji did, lets wait a couple of years and see how things match up then.

khunfred Regular Member • Posts: 317
Re: And THIS is why I'm switching to Fuji from Sony...

Of course Sony can't have a full line of lenses today. But is there any photographer who really understand what Sony plans? "Hey men, today what can we do to have some fun at our Sony office?" I only need a clear and consistent policy (Nex...!??) I have a very low budget, I can't invest today and switch tomorrow. And today, I trust in Fuji. Sensor size? I'm an amateur, and even professional photographers use smaller sensors. A smaller sensor can cover most of the situations. I've already used FF, APS-c, m4/3: I know what I can do with each format. And quality and fastness of the lenses are 50% of the process. Nobody can see the difference in terms of IQ between FF and APS-c files shared on the net. And in terms of depth of field, difference is tiny in 95% of the circumstances. I could talk about Dynamic range, or high ISOs, or resolution (who really needs 24Mpx on APSc or 36 on FF?) but in the same way: a good APS-c sensor gives me enough dynamic range, 1600/3200 ISO are clean, and in a cheaper and smaller camera/lense.

sabesh
sabesh Senior Member • Posts: 1,546
Fuji bodies & lenses are too big.

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-trusted-sources-no-a7000-aps-c-e-mount-coming-in-2014-main-focus-on-fe-from-now-on/

No more support for the APS-C in terms of a NEX7 replacement or APS-C lenses...odd considering they just released the A6000....

Can't get my hands on my X100S soon enough! (And my X-T1 when it releases!)

I recently made a switch from m4/3 to Sony, because Sony has 2 lenses that I consider ideal for travel: 16-70/4 & 10-18/4. I considered Fuji and found out that their (almost, if any) equivalent lenses and bodies are bigger and heavier compared to Sony (NEX-6). This defeats the purpose of a light travel system for me, especially considering that I take 2 bodies to avoid lens swapping.

My 2nd body is a Fuji X100s, as it has a Leaf shutter for HSS and a built on ND filter. But, I won't be considering their ILCs at this time. Cheers.
--
Sabesh
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Astrophotographer 10 Senior Member • Posts: 7,080
Re: As a company...
1

Yes that is very true. Don't go over to the Nikon forum and mention the mythical D400, you'd get flooded with upsets.

Greg.

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Astrophotographer 10 Senior Member • Posts: 7,080
Re: And THIS is why I'm switching to Fuji from Sony...

And also a silly thing to say considering Sony just released its latest Nex (just not called Nex) APSc camera this week - the A6000. It has the sensor that no doubt we will be seeing in the near future in X cameras - the 24.3mp PDAF pixelled Exmor with greater light throughput from special materials in the colour filter array with 20% more light throughput.

Greg.

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(unknown member) Contributing Member • Posts: 578
Re: And THIS is why I'm switching to Fuji from Sony...

khunfred wrote:

Of course Sony can't have a full line of lenses today. But is there any photographer who really understand what Sony plans? "Hey men, today what can we do to have some fun at our Sony office?" I only need a clear and consistent policy (Nex...!??) I have a very low budget, I can't invest today and switch tomorrow. And today, I trust in Fuji. Sensor size? I'm an amateur, and even professional photographers use smaller sensors. A smaller sensor can cover most of the situations. I've already used FF, APS-c, m4/3: I know what I can do with each format. And quality and fastness of the lenses are 50% of the process. Nobody can see the difference in terms of IQ between FF and APS-c files shared on the net. And in terms of depth of field, difference is tiny in 95% of the circumstances. I could talk about Dynamic range, or high ISOs, or resolution (who really needs 24Mpx on APSc or 36 on FF?) but in the same way: a good APS-c sensor gives me enough dynamic range, 1600/3200 ISO are clean, and in a cheaper and smaller camera/lense.

This comes back to the same old thing, if you get enough from an APS-C system then that is all you need but for others it isn't enough, it doesn't offer enough resolution or DR.

Possibly for the majority of photos on the net you couldn't see a difference between m4/3, aps-c or FF, I would also say that in most cases you couldn't tell the difference with images from a good cheap compact either.

So it really all depends upon what you need/want the images for and how they will be displayed, for many a good compact is all they need and a good compact is much cheaper and smaller than a Fuji system.

khunfred Regular Member • Posts: 317
Re: And THIS is why I'm switching to Fuji from Sony...

LWS2013 wrote:

This comes back to the same old thing, if you get enough from an APS-C system then that is all you need but for others it isn't enough, it doesn't offer enough resolution or DR.

Some people like shooting their pets with a D800, some people like shooting in 24 Mpx and share on their blog in small size: these are their opinions. But it's not a need, it's a feeling. Some amateurs have a professional equipment. Some professionals get fantastic shots with cameras considered 'non pro". I'm for the diversity. The camera market is huge, most of the cameras can give fabulous pics if used in a proper way. And give ugly results with a bad photographer. We just have to know what we can/can't do with an equipment. I don't try to convince someone else but nobody can convince me about Sony ILCE near future. By the way: Sony? Canon? Nikon? Fuji? Olympus?Panasonic?Pentax?...Compact? m 43? APS-c? FF? I' ve already used different cameras in different sensor sizes of these brands, and I' ve been very happy with. And my point of view (only a personal feeling) is based on my amateur works, episodic uses and simple shares (blogs, websites, small prints).

Mike in Kansas
Mike in Kansas Contributing Member • Posts: 774
Re: As a company...

That is partly why I am here...

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dL302 Junior Member • Posts: 29
Re: And THIS is why I'm switching to Fuji from Sony...
1

Just want to chime in for a bit here, to give a different perspective on the Fuji system. I am sure everyone knows the pros (skin tones, IQ, aperture ring on lens.. oh so smart) so I won't mention those.

I have been using Nikon for ages and got my first Fuji exactly one year ago with the XE1 but sold it in less than a year.

Few reasons why I am a bit concerned about Fuji and hopefully Fuji will be listening:

1. APS-C. No matter what, it isn't full frame. I'll be the first to come back when Fuji comes out with a FF system. Better yet if Nikon has a FF mirrorless that supports all existing lens. I just don't get the DOF I want and 6400 and higher is not really usable IMO. I am too spoiled with setting Auto ISO of 12800 and higher and let it shoot. 4/3... Even worse.

2. AF. Too slow (on the x-e1). Too late also because I sold it already before the firmware upgrade near the end of 2013. It's probably better now but it was a huge deal breaker for me. It's probably better now, no doubt.

3. WB. I don't know if my XE1 was defective but anytime it is indoors, the AWB is just overly warm. I think it is to compensate for nicer skin tones, but I much prefer to have an accurate AWB. Yes, you can manually adjust, but AWB to me is a key factor. I never adjust WB until post (unless I shoot video) and if a system can have accurate AWB, it will always win points in my book. Someone please tell me that the new Fuji's have improved their AWB algorithm on their new system. Not a deal breaker for most, especially if you shoot RAW.

4. Build quality and QC. In less than a year, my extremely lightly used XE1 exhibits squeaky buttons as if I have owned this thing for 10+ years. Probably a one off, but I have noticed the build quality to be subpar. The lens came with some small cosmetic defects but I had to live with that copy because all other copies have noticeable dust inside the element. I know dust is normal, but the sample of copies I encountered didn't inspire confidence for me. Small matter, but a concerning one to me.

5. Somewhat unresponsive. Firmware related probably but the overall menu system and operations just feels kinda choppy. The new XT1 menu didn't change and it just feels kinda slow to change settings. Definitely not the same feeling as the 5D3, D800 or even the A7. Not the end of the world, but worth noting. And this is super minor, but I just don't really like the look of the menu system. I think they need a better marketing and GUI team.

6. EVF. Choppy and laggy on the XE1. Neither the EVF nor the low res screen inspired me much. XT1 probably solved it. Will have to see.

7. X-trans & LR. I think I just got Fuji at the wrong time but the support for LR was limited early last year and it was an awkward decision for me to think if I should shoot JPEG for better IQ or RAW for better WB adjustment. I know there are other softwares but I am stubborn haha. Again, it's probably better now? Please tell me it is.

These are not end-of-world issues but just something to note. Can't always read the pros or you will be brainwashed haha.

I can share my side of the Sony if anyone cares to hear about it here. I'm always lurking here as I see huge potential in the Fuji system. Just not the right time for me to comeback yet. Give me a FF XT1 at $1699 and I an back! But they need to focus on perfecting the APSC lineup first.

dL

kcamacho11 Senior Member • Posts: 1,529
Re: And THIS is why I'm switching to Fuji from Sony...

Aethon wrote:

Well, sure. If you are happy to use over-sized FF lenses on a crop-sensor camera.

But you can't pretend that it isn't a compromise.

Not to mention, extremely over-priced if you decided to get them for your APS-C Sony.

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