DP2M - People shot phenonmenon

Started Feb 13, 2014 | Discussions
Blackraven Forum Member • Posts: 60
DP2M - People shot phenonmenon

Original Jpeg

Close up of the nostril with strange black shadow

Firstly, just to make it known, I am a full-on fan of the Sigma Foveon cameras and own the DP1M, DP2M and recently acquired the SD1 w, 17-50mm which I am still putting through its paces.
From extensive use, I've come to realise that the Sigmas are too harsh for Portraiture in general and try to avoid employing them in this capacity - but the example above has really taken me aback.

I used the DP2M to take a "snap-shot" in JPEG mode - which I rarely use as I mainly take RAWs. Upon close examination of the face (ok - i was pixel-peeping:)), i noticed that there was a strange black outline/shadow on the nose (see the close up). The outline looks like it was drawn on with a black marker pen. I did not touch-up or PP the photo what so ever. I have 5 similar shots with the same outline/shadow. It is very noticeable and unflattering to say the least.

Admittedly, the lighting that day was quite harsh and contrasty but the line/shadow looks un-natural evenso. I find it distinctively wierd and artificial. Did the jpeg engine create this phenomenon? I havent had the opportunity to try something similar using RAW to test it out.

I really hope that this is the jpeg engine at fault and doesnt occur with RAW. Has anyone else experienced similar with their portrait shots? Is it common?

Anyhow, I think I'll refrain from pointing my DP/SDs at people in future and keep to taking photos of inanimate objects.

 Blackraven's gear list:Blackraven's gear list
Sigma DP1 Merrill Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX3 Canon PowerShot S95 Sigma DP2 Merrill Leica D-Lux 6 +18 more
Sigma DP1 Merrill Sigma DP2 Merrill Sigma SD1
If you believe there are incorrect tags, please send us this post using our feedback form.
MOD Kendall Helmstetter Gelner Forum Pro • Posts: 20,122
Re: DP2M - People shot phenonmenon

To me it just looks like rolloff from a very over-exposed nose into very deep shadow behind the nose. You'd have the same thing in raw since there is shadow there it's just recording...  also of course as the edge of the nose rolls away it's reflecting less light towards you.

People in direct sunlight is rough, it can cause all kinds of heavy shadowing.

 Kendall Helmstetter Gelner's gear list:Kendall Helmstetter Gelner's gear list
Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG OS HSM Sigma 8-16mm F4.5-5.6 DC HSM Sigma 24-70mm F2.8 EX DG HSM Sigma 50-500mm F4.5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sigma 85mm F1.4 EX DG HSM +4 more
SigmaTog
SigmaTog Contributing Member • Posts: 861
Re: DP2M - People shot phenonmenon

I suppose if you want a deserving portrait, you could remove the sun-glasses next time & avoid the shadow.

ΣigmaTog

OP Blackraven Forum Member • Posts: 60
Re: DP2M - People shot phenonmenon

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

To me it just looks like rolloff from a very over-exposed nose into very deep shadow behind the nose. You'd have the same thing in raw since there is shadow there it's just recording... also of course as the edge of the nose rolls away it's reflecting less light towards you.

People in direct sunlight is rough, it can cause all kinds of heavy shadowing.

-- hide signature --

---> Kendall
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kigiphoto/
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/user_home

thanks for the comment Kendall. The close-up crop doesnt really show the extent of the problem. If you open up the jpeg and zoom in, you'll see that the "shadow" has no shading. Its just a think black line......

Blackraven

 Blackraven's gear list:Blackraven's gear list
Sigma DP1 Merrill Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX3 Canon PowerShot S95 Sigma DP2 Merrill Leica D-Lux 6 +18 more
mmr Contributing Member • Posts: 871
Re: DP2M - People shot phenonmenon

I don't really have much problem taking portraits with my dp2m.

For instance:

Or maybe:

I can keep going, if you'd like.  How about:

It's a tricky camera to get down, and I feel like it's taken me a while (and already a generation, I started with a dp2 before moving to the m), but once it's there, it's there.  I just hope the quattro solves the battery life problem, reduces the shot-to-shot timing, and uses that nifty af assist light to bring the af performance into the realm of the awesome.

 mmr's gear list:mmr's gear list
Sigma DP2s Sigma DP2 Merrill Sigma dp2 Quattro Nikon D300 Olympus E-M1
MOD Kendall Helmstetter Gelner Forum Pro • Posts: 20,122
Re: DP2M - People shot phenonmenon

Blackraven wrote:

<...>

thanks for the comment Kendall. The close-up crop doesnt really show the extent of the problem. If you open up the jpeg and zoom in, you'll see that the "shadow" has no shading. Its just a think black line......

Blackraven

I looked at the full size JPEG and zoomed in... that's why I said I thought it looked like the deep shadow behind the nose (and you see the same thing with the shadow from the glasses).

I think raw would yield a somewhat better result, because it would probably have some shadow detail and not blow the highlights as much.  But inherently that shadow is really dark.

 Kendall Helmstetter Gelner's gear list:Kendall Helmstetter Gelner's gear list
Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG OS HSM Sigma 8-16mm F4.5-5.6 DC HSM Sigma 24-70mm F2.8 EX DG HSM Sigma 50-500mm F4.5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sigma 85mm F1.4 EX DG HSM +4 more
OP Blackraven Forum Member • Posts: 60
Re: DP2M - People shot phenonmenon

SigmaTog wrote:

I suppose if you want a deserving portrait, you could remove the sun-glasses next time & avoid the shadow.

ΣigmaTog

Like I said, it was a fun "snap-shot".......

I only want to illustrate an issue - not to try and show off a nice "deserving portrait". In any case, if it is a shadow, it was certainly not cast by the sunglasses.

Blackraven

 Blackraven's gear list:Blackraven's gear list
Sigma DP1 Merrill Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX3 Canon PowerShot S95 Sigma DP2 Merrill Leica D-Lux 6 +18 more
Johan Borg Senior Member • Posts: 2,616
Re: DP2M - People shot phenonmenon
2

Blackraven wrote:

Admittedly, the lighting that day was quite harsh and contrasty but the line/shadow looks un-natural evenso. I find it distinctively wierd and artificial. Did the jpeg engine create this phenomenon? I havent had the opportunity to try something similar using RAW to test it out.

Always set in-camera sharpening to the lowest value if you intend to shoot JPEG, the sharpening algorithm is not as refined as in Sigma Photo Pro and this looks very much like the kind of artifact you can expect in strong contrast transitions.

You're much better off sharpening the shot afterwards if you feel the need.

Tom Schum
Tom Schum Veteran Member • Posts: 7,660
Re: DP2M - People shot phenonmenon

I found something like this in the SD1 shot below.  The poles beside the train tracks were outlined in white and it seemed very strange.  Then I remembered they were not poles; they were I-beams and the edges were white.  Nothing wrong with the sensor!

-- hide signature --

Tom Schum

 Tom Schum's gear list:Tom Schum's gear list
Sigma DP2 Sigma DP3 Merrill Fujifilm X30 Sigma dp0 Quattro Fujifilm X-E1 +10 more
jrdigitalart
jrdigitalart Veteran Member • Posts: 3,876
Jpg compression, anyone? (nt)
-- hide signature --

Sincere regards, Jim Roelofs
Cherish your privacy? Avoid (sp)iPhones.
You are welcome to visit my portfolio here:
http://www.pbase.com/jrdigitalart

intruder61
intruder61 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,064
Re: DP2M - People shot phenonmenon

Blackraven wrote:

Original Jpeg

Close up of the nostril with strange black shadow

Firstly, just to make it known, I am a full-on fan of the Sigma Foveon cameras and own the DP1M, DP2M and recently acquired the SD1 w, 17-50mm which I am still putting through its paces.
From extensive use, I've come to realise that the Sigmas are too harsh for Portraiture in general and try to avoid employing them in this capacity - but the example above has really taken me aback.

the DP2M is brilliant for portraits.

I used the DP2M to take a "snap-shot" in JPEG mode - which I rarely use as I mainly take RAWs. Upon close examination of the face (ok - i was pixel-peeping:)), i noticed that there was a strange black outline/shadow on the nose (see the close up). The outline looks like it was drawn on with a black marker pen. I did not touch-up or PP the photo what so ever. I have 5 similar shots with the same outline/shadow. It is very noticeable and unflattering to say the least.

Snap shot in that sun will achieve nothing of worth.

Admittedly, the lighting that day was quite harsh and contrasty but the line/shadow looks un-natural evenso. I find it distinctively wierd and artificial. Did the jpeg engine create this phenomenon? I havent had the opportunity to try something similar using RAW to test it out.

again, the conditions and where she is seated.

I really hope that this is the jpeg engine at fault and doesnt occur with RAW. Has anyone else experienced similar with their portrait shots? Is it common?

No.

Anyhow, I think I'll refrain from pointing my DP/SDs at people in future and keep to taking photos of inanimate objects.

http://www.sigma-dp.com/DP2Merrill/samplephoto.html

MOD Kendall Helmstetter Gelner Forum Pro • Posts: 20,122
Cast by cheek, but same effect

Blackraven wrote:

SigmaTog wrote:

I suppose if you want a deserving portrait, you could remove the sun-glasses next time & avoid the shadow.

ΣigmaTog

Like I said, it was a fun "snap-shot".......

I only want to illustrate an issue - not to try and show off a nice "deserving portrait". In any case, if it is a shadow, it was certainly not cast by the sunglasses.

It was cast by her cheek, she has very deep wells between nose and cheek, so in that bright sun you just get black right behind the nose.

I just spent a BUNCH of time editing female portraits sometimes in strong light (mostly single flash) so I know the effect all too well.

 Kendall Helmstetter Gelner's gear list:Kendall Helmstetter Gelner's gear list
Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG OS HSM Sigma 8-16mm F4.5-5.6 DC HSM Sigma 24-70mm F2.8 EX DG HSM Sigma 50-500mm F4.5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sigma 85mm F1.4 EX DG HSM +4 more
OP Blackraven Forum Member • Posts: 60
Re: DP2M - People shot phenonmenon

comment from Sigma review in Ming Thein's website

I think i've found a possible answer to the problem. From the comments in a review of the Sigma DP3M by Ming Thein, there is a comment which mentions posterization

 Blackraven's gear list:Blackraven's gear list
Sigma DP1 Merrill Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX3 Canon PowerShot S95 Sigma DP2 Merrill Leica D-Lux 6 +18 more
Johan Borg Senior Member • Posts: 2,616
Re: DP2M - People shot phenonmenon

Johan Borg wrote:

Blackraven wrote:

Admittedly, the lighting that day was quite harsh and contrasty but the line/shadow looks un-natural evenso. I find it distinctively wierd and artificial. Did the jpeg engine create this phenomenon? I havent had the opportunity to try something similar using RAW to test it out.

Always set in-camera sharpening to the lowest value if you intend to shoot JPEG, the sharpening algorithm is not as refined as in Sigma Photo Pro and this looks very much like the kind of artifact you can expect in strong contrast transitions.

You're much better off sharpening the shot afterwards if you feel the need.

I finally found two examples taken right after each other, enlarged to 200%. One is a in-camera JPEG from DP2M with default sharpening, the other an in-camera JPEG from DP2M with lowest sharpening.

If I develop from RAW instead (these were RAW+JPEG shots), the result is sharper and more detailed than the first one, yet with the lack of artifacts from the last - but even in SPP you get these artifacts if you increase the sharpening.

DP2M default sharpening in-camera JPEG

DP2M low sharpening in-camera JPEG

Hope this helps!

Truman Prevatt
Truman Prevatt Veteran Member • Posts: 7,937
Re: DP2M - People shot phenonmenon

Open shade is the best light for people. When we look at people in the sun our brains soften the lighting - our camera give it to us how it is. We want to "see" people's faces in a flattering way - in direct sunlight the camera doesn't give us that. There are probably a couple things going one here. One is the camer's dynamic range is exceeded by this scene. If you took a good spot meter and measured the dynamic range you would find it to be quite high. In that case compromises will have to be made - flow out the left side of the face or thrust the right side into deep shadows. Neither will give pleasing results. Also direct sun brings out every detail and wrinkly because they produce shadows on their own. Here is an example.

http://www.pbase.com/tprevatt/image/149164867.jpg

I could have lightened the shadowed portion of the face (under the bill of the cap) but I chose a more dramatic rendering of the image - since the image was not a portrait but a person was needed to tell the story.  Here is an unposed portrait (same person) in much better lighting for a portrait.

http://www.pbase.com/tprevatt/image/153150372.jpg

Here is an example of what I consider very good lighting for an portrait.

http://www.pbase.com/tprevatt/image/123697908.jpg

There are some wrinkles - you can see them if you look but they don't stand out as they would have in strong direct sunlight. That was on a bright (but cloudy) day with diffused lighting that resulted.

That was important because this shot was "about" the person.

Bottom line out door portraits can be very difficult.  Like every other form of photography - light matters.

-- hide signature --

Truman
www.pbase.com/tprevatt

 Truman Prevatt's gear list:Truman Prevatt's gear list
Fujifilm X-Pro2 Fujifilm X-H1 Fujifilm XF 18mm F2 R Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 56mm F1.2 R +8 more
intruder61
intruder61 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,064
Re: DP2M - People shot phenonmenon

Blackraven wrote:

comment from Sigma review in Ming Thein's website

I think i've found a possible answer to the problem. From the comments in a review of the Sigma DP3M by Ming Thein, there is a comment which mentions posterization

you're going down the wrong road.

you have an image with posterization?

Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads