A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

Started Feb 8, 2014 | Discussions
John Triebe Contributing Member • Posts: 730
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

I just did a 20 second, ISO 25600 image with the body cap on and I still get an image.

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cliffordfeller New Member • Posts: 7
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

I repeated the test without a lens and the body cap on. 26500 ISO  30 second exposure LED headlamp at 3inches from the flange red junction. I go a leak again but a different pattern. I will talk to SONY support tomorrow. What if anything is happening ?

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OP captura Forum Pro • Posts: 23,718
Re: A7 No White Orbs issue?

blue_skies wrote:

robert1955 wrote:

He says he's owned one of the Fuji cams that had the problems, he should know what it looked like.
The issue reported in the thread linked was something else entirely.

Really?

Did you also click the referenced link in the article?

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3340468423/fujifilm-x10-orbs-investigated-does-the-firmware-fix-work

blue_skies wrote:

Good to know Henry. So you are saying there is not a chance of a White Orb issue, and we should drop it?

Steve

Steve, the White Orb Syndrome looked very different:

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

Not so very different. I had an early X10 with the White Orbs effect. Some of the shots with streetlights and car headlights had that flare as seen in these A7 pictures. I even have a filter bwhich will intentionally creat that effect, if one wants it.

I am not at all convinced that this is not White Orbs as on the X10, but at any rate it seems to be at least, a similar SENSOR problem.

We need to see if ant more of these show up or were these atypicaal.

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SQLGuy Veteran Member • Posts: 5,497
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

cliffordfeller wrote:

I repeated the test without a lens and the body cap on. 26500 ISO 30 second exposure LED headlamp at 3inches from the flange red junction. I go a leak again but a different pattern. I will talk to SONY support tomorrow. What if anything is happening ?

The body caps aren't light-tight at all.

-- hide signature --

A7 with kit lens and a number of legacy lenses (mostly Canon FD)

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OP captura Forum Pro • Posts: 23,718
Re: Metal mount side-effect ... ?

blue_skies wrote:

socode wrote:

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

I tested my A7r this morning. Took off the lens, installed the body cap and took a 30 second ISO25600 shot. No light leaks. I also don't see any gap between the orange ring and the silver mount. I did this in a well lit room with the blinds open and it was sunny outside.

I see some are mounting their FE lens first and then trying to make it leak. How do you know light is simply not getting around the lens cap? They never look light tight to me.

Greg.

I think you're right. As a followup - I did the same test with A7R, lens, body cap only, and the same again on a couple of Canon DSLRs. One E-mount lens adapter shows up badly and is for the bin. Nothing shows without a lens attached.

All the cameras show the faintest ghosts at 30''/max ISO with lenses attached. I'm not going to worry about it, since for years I've obviously had a camera which is not perfectly light tight, at long exposures, high ISO, when I'm shining bright lights around the lens mount. Should be easy to avoid If ever stacking, I presume I'll shade/drape the body.

If anyone can report on the Novoflex FD adapters I'd be interested.

Guys, I tried this on the Nex-6 and Nex-7 and they also show light leaks. The pattern is different from the one on the A7, but it appears that light is simply reflecting through the metal mount, which forms a light tunnel of sorts.

Because both the lens and the mount are made of metal, and gap therein will allow light transmission by reflection. As minute as the gap is, and as little light as can penetrate, these sensors are extremely sensitive at ISO 25,600 and long exposures.

A mount lenses and body caps are made from black plastic. The light does not reflect, and a light tunnel does not form.

Adapters will likely leak more light as they are made against different tolerances than the lenses.

The tolerances, even on the OEM mount and lens, cannot be zero, or you would not be able to mount the lens at all. So I guess that even the slighest play, needed for insertion, enables light to form a light-tunnel of sorts which leaks light.

Again, I don't think that this is a real issue. I have seen leaks in bodies and adapters that show even in normal photography. This is not such a condition. I mean, any scene that requires ISO 25,600 and more than 10 seconds exposure is void of such (extreme) bright lights close to the mount.

Unless you shine your brightest flashlight on the camera mount during the exposure

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

When I had a light leak on a cheap adapter I painted the silvery inside metal parts with a black magic marker.

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OP captura Forum Pro • Posts: 23,718
Re: A7 No White Orbs issue?

blue_skies wrote:

robert1955 wrote:

He says he's owned one of the Fuji cams that had the problems, he should know what it looked like.
The issue reported in the thread linked was something else entirely.

Really?

Did you also click the referenced link in the article?

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3340468423/fujifilm-x10-orbs-investigated-does-the-firmware-fix-work

blue_skies wrote:

Good to know Henry. So you are saying there is not a chance of a White Orb issue, and we should drop it?

Steve

Steve, the White Orb Syndrome looked very different:

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

Henry,

That firmware fix for the Fuji X10 White Orbs issue did not work at all. Eventually Fuji re-designed the sensor and the problem was solved.

The Fujifilm X10: The White Orbs Machine

http://photography.tutsplus.com/articles/fujifilm-x10-the-white-orbs-machine--photo-8976

9 Apr 2012 ...

"Fujifilm launched a firmware updated that was supposed to solve the problem but in fact it did not, which made people even more angry. They had just bought an expensive camera only to find that it would create forms like round UFOs on their images. So the forums online had more and more people talking about the problem. It's, somehow, a sign, for good and for bad, of the power of the web."

"In May, Fujifilm starts replacing the sensors on the X10 compact, after ... The appearance of white orbs on the pictures taken with the Fujifilm X10 created ... But because the X10 is a high-end model and is closer to the X100 and the new ... "

"Now Fujifilm has stated that, from May on, they will start to change the defective sensors with a reformulated sensor for all those customers that claim they've problems. So this has more or less dried up the conversation, and many have found something else to moan about. The "blooming" effect present in Fujifilm X10 and XS-1, says Fujifilm, can occur with all digital cameras which use CMOS sensors, but will be more visible under certain shooting conditions... and, let me add here, it seems these models are more prone to show it."

Steve

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0xDEADBEEF Contributing Member • Posts: 690
Re: Leak confirmed on my A7 (1 photo)

I can reproduce pretty much the same image with my FE 55mm and shining my LED flashlight at the side of the mount while taking a long exposure photo with len cap on. It is little disturbing. ;(

-- hide signature --

-Dominik

Heaven is for real
Heaven is for real Senior Member • Posts: 2,320
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

Just tested it, same settings, lens used 35 F2.8 NO leak...

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Dustinash Contributing Member • Posts: 663
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

captura wrote:

"A7/A7R Light leaks

- from Alpha NEX Cameras, borrowed with thanks!

http://community.sony.com/t5/Alpha-NEX-Cameras/A7-A7R-Light-leaks/td-p/254835

12-26-2013 09:05 AM - edited ‎12-26-2013 09:06 AM

People in these two groups have found a light leaking issue that occurs from the mount on camera. https://www.facebook.com/groups/184416535083113/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/SonyAlphaTalk/
Here is a photo of the light leak. I did a simple test putting the lens cap on and shot at iso 25600 for 20 seconds in low indoor lighting.

A Person in both groups took a long real world exposure and the light leaks did affect the outcome of his photograph.

Looking at the two photos together the light leaks look like they are coming from the same points. More people have confirmed this in the groups. Also the same person that took the photo above found that the e mount is squishy. He also has seemed to have found a temporary solution

"So I am now more convinced than ever that the source of the major light leak, the crescent leak showing up on the upper right quadrant of the image, is caused by that slight gap between the silver flange and the resin substrate. To get rid of it, all I needed to do was apply a very thin strip of gaffer's tape to the gap between the silver flange and the orange ring (see pic). Note that this isn't covering the space between the orange ring and the body nor is it really providing a good shield between the flange and the rear of the lens. It's just covering the gap between the flange and the orange ring, and that takes care of the crescent light leak "

The tape idea was found on twitter http://twitpic.com/dpocow

=========================================

Re: White Orbs issue now on Sony A7?

- continued from "Problem with Sony A7, reflections on the sensor."

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53072031

Fuji X10 issue re-visited?

No true photographer is happy until they fix their new thing with gaffers tape.  Sometimes I think we should call photographer's closet gaffer's

socode Regular Member • Posts: 356
Re: Metal mount side-effect ... ?

cliffordfeller wrote:

A7R Full frame Zeiss 35mm 2.8 lens cap on 30second exposure ISO 25600 Xenon headlamp moved around red ring at 3 inches for 30 seconds see image

Can you try on another camera you own?

Hard for me to say it's a problem when I can see it on any other camera I try. Next up - we may determine that weather sealing doesn't protect against immersion

The Lotus Eater
The Lotus Eater Regular Member • Posts: 362
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?
6

I repeated the test without a lens and the body cap on. 26500 ISO  30 second exposure LED headlamp at 3inches from the flange red junction. I go a leak again but a different pattern. I will talk to SONY support tomorrow. What if anything is happening ?

If the light was leaking through the mount, then wouldn't your second shot be identical to the first?

As both shots came out very differently, it seems to me that the first was light leaking through the lens cap and second was light leaking through the body cap.

I'm quite puzzled why people seem to think the e-mount lens caps are an effective way to keep out 100% of the light when conducting these tests - they are designed to protect the front of the lens when it is not in use, but they are not designed as a light seal.

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OP captura Forum Pro • Posts: 23,718
Re: Leak confirmed on my A7 (1 photo)

0xDEADBEEF wrote:

I can reproduce pretty much the same image with my FE 55mm and shining my LED flashlight at the side of the mount while taking a long exposure photo with len cap on. It is little disturbing. ;(

-- hide signature --

-Dominik

Just don't take any long exposures, and you'll be fine.

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GaryW Veteran Member • Posts: 8,541
Re: Leak confirmed on my A7 (1 photo)

captura wrote:

0xDEADBEEF wrote:

I can reproduce pretty much the same image with my FE 55mm and shining my LED flashlight at the side of the mount while taking a long exposure photo with len cap on. It is little disturbing. ;(

-- hide signature --

-Dominik

Just don't take any long exposures, and you'll be fine.

Even if you take any long exposures, you'll be fine, as long as you don't shine a flashlight around the mount.  This appears to be a completely artificial problem.

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

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MisterHairy Senior Member • Posts: 2,202
Re: Leak confirmed on my A7 (1 photo)

GaryW wrote:

captura wrote:

0xDEADBEEF wrote:

I can reproduce pretty much the same image with my FE 55mm and shining my LED flashlight at the side of the mount while taking a long exposure photo with len cap on. It is little disturbing. ;(

-- hide signature --

-Dominik

Just don't take any long exposures, and you'll be fine.

Even if you take any long exposures, you'll be fine, as long as you don't shine a flashlight around the mount. This appears to be a completely artificial problem.

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

I see a surprising amount of "roll" between the 55mm lens and the a7r at the mount. One or other is not flat. The lens can swing sideways slightly, opening a gap of a fraction of a mm between the lens and camera mounts. However, 30s high ISO exposures with the lens cap on and a very bright LED lamp shining at the affected parts of the mount gives me nothing but black frames. I see movement but have no light leak.

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GaryW Veteran Member • Posts: 8,541
Re: Leak confirmed on my A7 (1 photo)

MisterHairy wrote:

GaryW wrote:...

Even if you take any long exposures, you'll be fine, as long as you don't shine a flashlight around the mount. This appears to be a completely artificial problem.

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

I see a surprising amount of "roll" between the 55mm lens and the a7r at the mount. One or other is not flat. The lens can swing sideways slightly, opening a gap of a fraction of a mm between the lens and camera mounts. However, 30s high ISO exposures with the lens cap on and a very bright LED lamp shining at the affected parts of the mount gives me nothing but black frames. I see movement but have no light leak.

Well, that just adds more confusion, doesn't it?    Movement sounds bad -- I suppose it could affect the focus.

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Gary W.

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 6,192
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

You are a just party pooper. Sony probably get a lot of cameras returned because there is nothing wrong with them so they are just not any fun to play with.

The Lotus Eater wrote:

If the light was leaking through the mount, then wouldn't your second shot be identical to the first?

As both shots came out very differently, it seems to me that the first was light leaking through the lens cap and second was light leaking through the body cap.

I'm quite puzzled why people seem to think the e-mount lens caps are an effective way to keep out 100% of the light when conducting these tests - they are designed to protect the front of the lens when it is not in use, but they are not designed as a light seal.

Helen
Helen Veteran Member • Posts: 5,399
Re: Leak confirmed on my A7 (1 photo)

GaryW wrote:

MisterHairy wrote:

GaryW wrote:...

Even if you take any long exposures, you'll be fine, as long as you don't shine a flashlight around the mount. This appears to be a completely artificial problem.

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

I see a surprising amount of "roll" between the 55mm lens and the a7r at the mount. One or other is not flat. The lens can swing sideways slightly, opening a gap of a fraction of a mm between the lens and camera mounts. However, 30s high ISO exposures with the lens cap on and a very bright LED lamp shining at the affected parts of the mount gives me nothing but black frames. I see movement but have no light leak.

Well, that just adds more confusion, doesn't it? Movement sounds bad -- I suppose it could affect the focus.

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

I don't know whether it's relevant, but if you look closely at the E-mount, you will see that the three "claws" of the bayonet in the body mount are black.  This is a hybrid construction (i.e. rather than one-piece construction) that originally came in on Minolta's film bodies around 2002 (previously the bayonets been all-metal and sometimes on cheaper, later models all-polycarbonate, like the current A58 is) - the metal seating ring is screwed on top of the claw assembly.  This construction style carried on with Sony cameras since they inherited the A-mount from Minolta and they appear to have done similar with the E-mount too.  As far as I know, those claws are engineering polycarbonate or similar, so I would think that there could be some inherent flexibility in them.  Mind you, when I dismantled a film Minolta once, I found the claws were part of the outer front plate - in that case, they were polycarbonate like the rest of that component, but given the different construction of the A7 and A7R, it *might* mean that the claws are magnesium alloy for the A7R, and polycarbonate for the A7.  Or not - it could be a separate ring carrying the claws...

Canon uses a similar construction for its body mounts up to and including the EOS 100D - the 700D switches to all-metal.

DocetLector Regular Member • Posts: 358
Re: A7 No White Orbs issue?
1

To me it looks completly different, X10 sensor had a problem "overblooming" strong white lights

and the Sony sensor has reflections, most probably interference between sensor and rear glass

of the lens.

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John Triebe Contributing Member • Posts: 730
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

If the light was leaking through the mount, then wouldn't your second shot be identical to the first?

Not necessarily. The internal surface on the lens cap is vastly different than the internal surface on a lens, and therefore the internal reflections could be very different.

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SQLGuy Veteran Member • Posts: 5,497
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

John Triebe wrote:

If the light was leaking through the mount, then wouldn't your second shot be identical to the first?

Not necessarily. The internal surface on the lens cap is vastly different than the internal surface on a lens, and therefore the internal reflections could be very different.

As I said before, the body cap is not light-tight at all. I had plenty of leaking from ambient light with the body cap on. I had none with the kit zoom on.

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A7 with kit lens and a number of legacy lenses (mostly Canon FD)

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