A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

Started Feb 8, 2014 | Discussions
OP captura Forum Pro • Posts: 23,897
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

I was getting light leaks in a Pixco lens adapter a couple of years ago. I fixed it by doing 2 things.

1 - by painting all shiny reflective interior areas with a black marker pen.

2 - by sealing all possible spaces with a black sealant.

blue_skies
blue_skies Forum Pro • Posts: 11,403
Re: A7 No White Orbs issue?
3

captura wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

captura wrote:

Well this guy reported it with his A7, and the question is, was the only one, or are there others, and how many? Strangely the thread was cut short after less than 100 messages: What's going on?

Steve

Steve, that thread is at 150 messaage (149 responses). Threads auto-lock at 150 messages.

Read ProfHandD's response in that thread, as it supports my comments in that same thread:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53072446

The problem manifests itself by:

  1. High dynamic range of the sensor, making reflections perceptible if
  2. Highlights are dramatic (bright lights on a dark background, sun in frame)
  3. The shot is over-exposed (highlight at, or close to blow-out)
  4. Using a stopped down aperture
  5. Use of short-flange lens (typically WA RF lens)

Remove one or two of these variables and the problem goes away,

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

Good to know Henry. So you are saying there is not a chance of a White Orb issue, and we should drop it?

Steve

Steve, the White Orb Syndrome looked very different:

http://www.hardwarezone.com.sg/tech-news-dpreview-investigates-fujifilm-x10-orbs

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

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John Triebe Contributing Member • Posts: 735
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

I ran the same test with my NEX-7 and got no leaks. While I might be able to correct the problem using the methods you describe, the camera should be light tight as shipped. It will be going back.

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Chad Hardy
Chad Hardy Senior Member • Posts: 1,192
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?
1

John that looks bad.  I would definitely return.  I retested mine again in a very dark room and used a bright flashlight circling all around my lens.  I am not getting any leaks on my A7 with FE 35mm attached.

I also just tried it with my LAEA4 and Tamron 90mm...still no leaking.

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OP captura Forum Pro • Posts: 23,897
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

John Triebe wrote:

I ran the same test with my NEX-7 and got no leaks. While I might be able to correct the problem using the methods you describe, the camera should be light tight as shipped. It will be going back.

Of course!

Lattimer Junior Member • Posts: 36
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

John Triebe wrote:

I ran the same test with my NEX-7 and got no leaks. While I might be able to correct the problem using the methods you describe, the camera should be light tight as shipped. It will be going back.

John, I can replicate just what you got on my A7R.  When I drop the ISO or cover gap (with rubber band for quick test) it goes away.

Does anyone know if this will matter for most shooting or just very specific shooting situations?  I was blissfully unaware of this prior to this thread, and I'm thinking it's something I never would have known about if I had no read about it here.

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Chad Hardy
Chad Hardy Senior Member • Posts: 1,192
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

Lattimer wrote:

John Triebe wrote:

I ran the same test with my NEX-7 and got no leaks. While I might be able to correct the problem using the methods you describe, the camera should be light tight as shipped. It will be going back.

John, I can replicate just what you got on my A7R. When I drop the ISO or cover gap (with rubber band for quick test) it goes away.

Does anyone know if this will matter for most shooting or just very specific shooting situations? I was blissfully unaware of this prior to this thread, and I'm thinking it's something I never would have known about if I had no read about it here.

It will matter if you do Long Exposure (LE) photography.   Let's say you use Bulb mode a bunch to capture 20 or 30s exposures of landscapes at sunset.  We do this to make the water appear smooth.  If the leak is bad enough, it will ruin your image.  There were a few posts earlier in this thread with pictures of daytime LE and the leak that were ruined.  It could also happen with night LE (astrophotography or cityscapes are common).

If you don't shoot this way, then ignorance is bliss.  If you do, best to do some tests with extreme settings to be sure it will never crop up for your type of shooting.

Just curious what do you have to drop the ISO to for the leak to disappear?

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blue_skies
blue_skies Forum Pro • Posts: 11,403
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?
1

John Triebe wrote:

Unfortunately, I have the "light leak" problem with my A7r. I tested both my Zeiss 55mm f1.8 and the 35mm f2.8 and they both exhibit the problem:

This one is with the 55mm wherein I used a flashlight and shined it completely around the lens mount.

Looks like this camera is going back to Sony.

Hi John, I can reproduce this with the A7 and a normal 60w lightbulb, when holding the camera close to the light, for over 10 seconds at ISO 25,600.

However, I don't know whether this is a real problem or not. I mean, the light leak results from an extremely bright light with the camera closed. In normal shooting, at ISO 25,600, I would expect such a light source to be absent.

I can not think of scenarios in which this could form a real problem.

It could also highlight the extreme sensitivity of the sensor, at ISO 25,600.

I am not sending the camera back, as I expect that ALL cameras will have this same issue.

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

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Lattimer Junior Member • Posts: 36
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

Chad Hardy wrote:

Lattimer wrote:

John Triebe wrote:

I ran the same test with my NEX-7 and got no leaks. While I might be able to correct the problem using the methods you describe, the camera should be light tight as shipped. It will be going back.

John, I can replicate just what you got on my A7R. When I drop the ISO or cover gap (with rubber band for quick test) it goes away.

Does anyone know if this will matter for most shooting or just very specific shooting situations? I was blissfully unaware of this prior to this thread, and I'm thinking it's something I never would have known about if I had no read about it here.

It will matter if you do Long Exposure (LE) photography. Let's say you use Bulb mode a bunch to capture 20 or 30s exposures of landscapes at sunset. We do this to make the water appear smooth. If the leak is bad enough, it will ruin your image. There were a few posts earlier in this thread with pictures of daytime LE and the leak that were ruined. It could also happen with night LE (astrophotography or cityscapes are common).

If you don't shoot this way, then ignorance is bliss. If you do, best to do some tests with extreme settings to be sure it will never crop up for your type of shooting.

Just curious what do you have to drop the ISO to for the leak to disappear?

I did 25sec at max ISO with bright flashlight and basically looked just like what John posted. Dropped to ISO 3200 and it was gone. I did not try anything in between those two settings.

Edited to add: tested with FE35 and metabones III with samyang 14mm. Same result either way.

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Chad Hardy
Chad Hardy Senior Member • Posts: 1,192
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

blue_skies wrote:

John Triebe wrote:

Unfortunately, I have the "light leak" problem with my A7r. I tested both my Zeiss 55mm f1.8 and the 35mm f2.8 and they both exhibit the problem:

This one is with the 55mm wherein I used a flashlight and shined it completely around the lens mount.

Looks like this camera is going back to Sony.

Hi John, I can reproduce this with the A7 and a normal 60w lightbulb, when holding the camera close to the light, for over 10 seconds at ISO 25,600.

However, I don't know whether this is a real problem or not. I mean, the light leak results from an extremely bright light with the camera closed. In normal shooting, at ISO 25,600, I would expect such a light source to be absent.

I can not think of scenarios in which this could form a real problem.

It could also highlight the extreme sensitivity of the sensor, at ISO 25,600.

I am not sending the camera back, as I expect that ALL cameras will have this same issue.

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

Hi Henry,

Here is the worry.  LE during the day

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Wolverinegeoff New Member • Posts: 3
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?
1

Can't reproduce the light leak with a bright flashlight on an A7. Here's some different street lamps that may be showing the other effect you are describing. Taken at only f7. Normal street lamps seem unaffected, moreso those new LED lamps they are putting up around LA.

John Triebe Contributing Member • Posts: 735
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

I guess if the NEX-7 exhibited the same behavior,I wouldn't be as concerned, but that camera does not have a problem. Therefore, I think something may be amiss with the A7r and considering the price, it should be "light tight".

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Astrophotographer 10 Veteran Member • Posts: 9,871
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?
1

I tested my A7r this morning. Took off the lens, installed the body cap and took a 30 second ISO25600 shot. No light leaks. I also don't see any gap between the orange ring and the silver mount. I did this in a well lit room with the blinds open and it was sunny outside.

I see some are mounting their FE lens first and then trying to make it leak. How do you know light is simply not getting around the lens cap? They never look light tight to me.

Greg.

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socode Regular Member • Posts: 356
Can Replicate on DSLR

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

I tested my A7r this morning. Took off the lens, installed the body cap and took a 30 second ISO25600 shot. No light leaks. I also don't see any gap between the orange ring and the silver mount. I did this in a well lit room with the blinds open and it was sunny outside.

I see some are mounting their FE lens first and then trying to make it leak. How do you know light is simply not getting around the lens cap? They never look light tight to me.

Greg.

I think you're right. As a followup - I did the same test with A7R, lens, body cap only, and the same again on a couple of Canon DSLRs. One E-mount lens adapter shows up badly and is for the bin. Nothing shows without a lens attached.

All the cameras show the faintest ghosts at 30''/max ISO with lenses attached. I'm not going to worry about it, since for years I've obviously had a camera which is not perfectly light tight, at long exposures, high ISO, when I'm shining bright lights around the lens mount. Should be easy to avoid  If ever stacking, I presume I'll shade/drape the body.

If anyone can report on the Novoflex FD adapters I'd be interested.

blue_skies
blue_skies Forum Pro • Posts: 11,403
Re: Metal mount side-effect ... ?
1

socode wrote:

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

I tested my A7r this morning. Took off the lens, installed the body cap and took a 30 second ISO25600 shot. No light leaks. I also don't see any gap between the orange ring and the silver mount. I did this in a well lit room with the blinds open and it was sunny outside.

I see some are mounting their FE lens first and then trying to make it leak. How do you know light is simply not getting around the lens cap? They never look light tight to me.

Greg.

I think you're right. As a followup - I did the same test with A7R, lens, body cap only, and the same again on a couple of Canon DSLRs. One E-mount lens adapter shows up badly and is for the bin. Nothing shows without a lens attached.

All the cameras show the faintest ghosts at 30''/max ISO with lenses attached. I'm not going to worry about it, since for years I've obviously had a camera which is not perfectly light tight, at long exposures, high ISO, when I'm shining bright lights around the lens mount. Should be easy to avoid If ever stacking, I presume I'll shade/drape the body.

If anyone can report on the Novoflex FD adapters I'd be interested.

Guys, I tried this on the Nex-6 and Nex-7 and they also show light leaks. The pattern is different from the one on the A7, but it appears that light is simply reflecting through the metal mount, which forms a light tunnel of sorts.

Because both the lens and the mount are made of metal, and gap therein will allow light transmission by reflection. As minute as the gap is, and as little light as can penetrate, these sensors are extremely sensitive at ISO 25,600 and long exposures.

A mount lenses and body caps are made from black plastic. The light does not reflect, and a light tunnel does not form.

Adapters will likely leak more light as they are made against different tolerances than the lenses.

The tolerances, even on the OEM mount and lens, cannot be zero, or you would not be able to mount the lens at all. So I guess that even the slighest play, needed for insertion, enables light to form a light-tunnel of sorts which leaks light.

Again, I don't think that this is a real issue. I have seen leaks in bodies and adapters that show even in normal photography. This is not such a condition. I mean, any scene that requires ISO 25,600 and more than 10 seconds exposure is void of such (extreme) bright lights close to the mount.

Unless you shine your brightest flashlight on the camera mount during the exposure

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Cheers,
Henry

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robert1955 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,323
Re: A7 No White Orbs issue?

He says he's owned one of the Fuji cams that had the problems, he should know what it looked like.
The issue reported in the thread linked was something else entirely.

blue_skies wrote:

Good to know Henry. So you are saying there is not a chance of a White Orb issue, and we should drop it?

Steve

Steve, the White Orb Syndrome looked very different:

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blue_skies
blue_skies Forum Pro • Posts: 11,403
Re: A7 No White Orbs issue?

robert1955 wrote:

He says he's owned one of the Fuji cams that had the problems, he should know what it looked like.
The issue reported in the thread linked was something else entirely.

Really?

Did you also click the referenced link in the article?

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3340468423/fujifilm-x10-orbs-investigated-does-the-firmware-fix-work

blue_skies wrote:

Good to know Henry. So you are saying there is not a chance of a White Orb issue, and we should drop it?

Steve

Steve, the White Orb Syndrome looked very different:

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Cheers,
Henry

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RichardLarssen
RichardLarssen Senior Member • Posts: 1,122
Re: Leak confirmed on my A7 (1 photo)

SQLGuy wrote:

Note that I did not see any leak with the kit zoom. Are you expecting the lens mount to compensate for deviations from mount spec by 3rd party adapter manufacturers?

-- hide signature --

A7 with kit lens and a number of legacy lenses (mostly Canon FD)

Lens is not the issue, i have tested with different lenses and different cameras. But as people say, this is not a real world problem. But i will contact sony, i paid a lot money for this camera and i want it to be the way it was meant to be. Light leaks in a weather sealed mount should not occur.

cheers

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cliffordfeller New Member • Posts: 7
Re: Metal mount side-effect ... ?

A7R Full frame Zeiss 35mm 2.8 lens cap on 30second exposure ISO 25600 Xenon headlamp moved around red ring at 3 inches for 30 seconds see image

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Chad Hardy
Chad Hardy Senior Member • Posts: 1,192
Re: A7/A7R Light leaks reported + White Orbs issue?

I understand the extremity of the testing, but that is to make it happen quickly.

Take a daytime LE (say 5 minutes) shot with a high stop ND filter, ISO 100, F8 like Satoru mentioned in this post.

I currently only have an 8 stop ND so it I can't get as long of an exposure as he can.  However, if you are getting a light leak like in his picture, it appears to be a problem.

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