Canon doesn't really care anymore...

Started Feb 7, 2014 | Discussions
altair8800 Senior Member • Posts: 1,761
Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore...

howardroark wrote:

elfroggio wrote:

David_C wrote:

If you read the whole article, you will note the camera division at Fuji is also a very small percentage of the total company, the same as Canon. But it sure seems to me that Fuji is letting their engineers loose at coming up with new products and firmware.

Incorrect! Fuji's camera sales are just under 2% of the company. Canon's doesn't break it the same way but Canon's imaging is around 40% of the company.

Canon is right now concentrating on the profitable cameras with "healthy growth" (Canon's wording) the 70d and the 5dMk3...

BTW, just in 2013, Canon has introduced 2 revolutionary cameras: the SL1, the smallest dSLR ever (cheap and excellent for its size selling extremely well in Japan) and the 70d with the dual pixels and the video autofocus (with STM lenses)

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Thanks
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People have a way of completely discounting cameras that they personally have no interest in if they don't include some new useless sensor (read: everything Fuji does) that makes them think something neat and exciting is going on. Just because some people didn't care about DP PDAF in the 70D or the size of the SL1 or the new market segement introduced by the G1 X they think that nobody should care about those advances.

While I do not care about DP PDAF in the 70D, I do care about those advances. It means that without DP PDAF, they can produce a 40Mp, 7 fps 7DII or 30Mp, 9 fps. Their sensor fab has advanced to a higher level.

nick101 Senior Member • Posts: 1,060
Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore...
2

David_C wrote:

For example, Canon could very simple add the magic lantern hacks to existing cameras, but they don't.

And, of course, take on liability for support, reliability, fault-fixing for software that has many known glitches. ML does a great job for people who are prepared to make the effort to know and understand its limitations. It's a long way from something that Canon would want to make a standard part of their offering.

Also - analysts opinions are based on their personal perception of share value - they're not interested in products except in that context

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 5,590
Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore... three points....

peterharvey wrote:

I notice mobile phones eating into compact cameras, so the S90 was a great innovation, but now after 2012, Canon must do more with their PowerShot S110 etc, and get a 13 mm sensor out like the Sony RX100.

Just how well are mirrorless ILC's doing? Growth, but not much? So that's probably why the two big boys Canon and Nikon leave the mirrorless ILC to the smaller players like Sony and Olympus etc, and also because they have to manufacture a whole new range of compact lenses to match the compact mirrorless ILC bodies, and the compact lenses are compromised in itself.

dSLR's still the real thing, and mobile phones can't do much to affect dSLR sales.

Except that as mobile phones meet the expectations of new generations of young photographers there may be less and less incentive for those younger users to ever consider the need to move up to DSLRs (or mirrorless). So in the longer term a large enthusiast segment becomes a smaller one.  The impact of a smaller enthusiast market on manufacturers may be to produce fewer DSLR models at higher prices.

On the positive side, compacts and dSLR's are eroding the sales of compact camcorders, so 70D's dual pixel technology is great, and Nikon must really catch up...

TTMartin
TTMartin Veteran Member • Posts: 7,304
Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore... three points....
1

meland wrote:

peterharvey wrote:

I notice mobile phones eating into compact cameras, so the S90 was a great innovation, but now after 2012, Canon must do more with their PowerShot S110 etc, and get a 13 mm sensor out like the Sony RX100.

Just how well are mirrorless ILC's doing? Growth, but not much? So that's probably why the two big boys Canon and Nikon leave the mirrorless ILC to the smaller players like Sony and Olympus etc, and also because they have to manufacture a whole new range of compact lenses to match the compact mirrorless ILC bodies, and the compact lenses are compromised in itself.

dSLR's still the real thing, and mobile phones can't do much to affect dSLR sales.

Except that as mobile phones meet the expectations of new generations of young photographers there may be less and less incentive for those younger users to ever consider the need to move up to DSLRs (or mirrorless). So in the longer term a large enthusiast segment becomes a smaller one. The impact of a smaller enthusiast market on manufacturers may be to produce fewer DSLR models at higher prices.

This is the same as someone in the past arguing that point and shoot cameras would get so good that no one would want to move up to a dSLR. High end P&S cameras are much better than today's cellphones, yet they never made a dent in dSLR sales.

If anything high end P&S cameras and cellphone cameras act as a gateway to dSLR cameras. As long as people continue to believe it is the equipment and not the photographer, dSLR sales are secure.

On the positive side, compacts and dSLR's are eroding the sales of compact camcorders, so 70D's dual pixel technology is great, and Nikon must really catch up...

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 5,590
Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore... three points....
1

TTMartin wrote:

meland wrote:

peterharvey wrote:

I notice mobile phones eating into compact cameras, so the S90 was a great innovation, but now after 2012, Canon must do more with their PowerShot S110 etc, and get a 13 mm sensor out like the Sony RX100.

Just how well are mirrorless ILC's doing? Growth, but not much? So that's probably why the two big boys Canon and Nikon leave the mirrorless ILC to the smaller players like Sony and Olympus etc, and also because they have to manufacture a whole new range of compact lenses to match the compact mirrorless ILC bodies, and the compact lenses are compromised in itself.

dSLR's still the real thing, and mobile phones can't do much to affect dSLR sales.

Except that as mobile phones meet the expectations of new generations of young photographers there may be less and less incentive for those younger users to ever consider the need to move up to DSLRs (or mirrorless). So in the longer term a large enthusiast segment becomes a smaller one. The impact of a smaller enthusiast market on manufacturers may be to produce fewer DSLR models at higher prices.

This is the same as someone in the past arguing that point and shoot cameras would get so good that no one would want to move up to a dSLR. High end P&S cameras are much better than today's cellphones, yet they never made a dent in dSLR sales.

When DSLR sales (and before DSLRs the sales of SLRs) were expanding it was hard to determine whether P&S cameras were having an affect on SLR type cameras or not. But when SLRs were declining, as they did cyclically in the late '80s and again in the late '90s, many in the industry suspected that it was the increased quality and ease of use of compact cameras that was partially to blame. That and the fact that the 'innovation' in SLRs had to an extent plateaued. History is simply repeating its self now with DSLRs.

If anything high end P&S cameras and cellphone cameras act as a gateway to dSLR cameras. As long as people continue to believe it is the equipment and not the photographer, dSLR sales are secure.

We might like to think this is the case. As long as people desire to progress to become enthusiasts then cameras like the DSLR may be secure. However if the younger generations start to perceive that enthusiasts only exist in the territory occupied by old men and nerds', then maybe not.

On the positive side, compacts and dSLR's are eroding the sales of compact camcorders, so 70D's dual pixel technology is great, and Nikon must really catch up...

RedFox88 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,217
Re: nikon pull-down
2

Flying Fish wrote:

No, I didn't miss it. He's always made clear he's a Nikon user and writes primarily about Nikon. That doesn't mean he's a fanboy and I still don't think Nikon pays him. Some of the things he writes about them, I wonder if they'd be willing to pay him NOT to write.

Thing is, I've never come across a positive writing from him about Canon.  he is a fanboi for nikon.

TTMartin
TTMartin Veteran Member • Posts: 7,304
Re: nikon pull-down

RedFox88 wrote:

Flying Fish wrote:

No, I didn't miss it. He's always made clear he's a Nikon user and writes primarily about Nikon. That doesn't mean he's a fanboy and I still don't think Nikon pays him. Some of the things he writes about them, I wonder if they'd be willing to pay him NOT to write.

Thing is, I've never come across a positive writing from him about Canon. he is a fanboi for nikon.

For now.

Scott Kelby - Why I Switched to Canon

THATNIKONGUY BUYING A CANON?!

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peterharvey Contributing Member • Posts: 920
Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore... three points....

I don't know for sure, but I suspect mobile phones, compacts, and even mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras will not affect dSLRs, in the short term anyway.

In the long term, if there was some type of miraculous breakthrough in technology, then the phone/compact/mirrorless may affect dSLR sales.

For now, the dSLR is safe...

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 53,154
Re: I completely disagree
1

Flying Fish wrote:

What is your eviudence that Thom Hogan is paid by Nikon?

It is nonsense, Thom is not paid by Nikon. Over the years he has been a consistent critic of the company while making his own business mainly form Nikon users (the many manuals and tests he does). More recently his activities have spread to other brands as he's moved into supporting mirrorless camera users.

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Bob

Pallke Regular Member • Posts: 157
Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore...

elfroggio wrote:

BTW, just in 2013, Canon has introduced 2 revolutionary cameras: the SL1, the smallest dSLR ever (cheap and excellent for its size selling extremely well in Japan) and the 70d with the dual pixels and the video autofocus (with STM lenses)
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The SL1 and the 70D are hardly revolutionary cameras.
Maybe nice... but far from groundbreaking.

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best regards
Pallke

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altair8800 Senior Member • Posts: 1,761
Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore...

Pallke wrote:

elfroggio wrote:

BTW, just in 2013, Canon has introduced 2 revolutionary cameras: the SL1, the smallest dSLR ever (cheap and excellent for its size selling extremely well in Japan) and the 70d with the dual pixels and the video autofocus (with STM lenses)

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The SL1 and the 70D are hardly revolutionary cameras.
Maybe nice... but far from groundbreaking.

You may be right about SL1. I think the 70D is the only DSLR other than medium frame that has 40 million photodiodes. I would have liked them to put that capability to better use, but still groundbreaking.

Mikael Risedal
Mikael Risedal Veteran Member • Posts: 4,620
Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore...
1

David_C wrote:

First, I own and use Canon,

per www.bythom.com analyses Canon's financial reports

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/camera-company-financials.html

"Analysts who attended the financial results meeting in Tokyo and who cover Canon seem a bit non-plussed, with several remarking about how blasé Canon appears about the lack of unit volume growth in cameras. None of the countermeasures mentioned in their presentations really addresses the declining unit volumes in cameras. Instead Canon now is talking about more medical sales for imaging (last year it was more security camera sales as the growth prospect). Every indication is that Canon regards cameras as a fully mature market and is managing it as such."

If you read the whole article, you will note the camera division at Fuji is also a very small percentage of the total company, the same as Canon. But it sure seems to me that Fuji is letting their engineers loose at coming up with new products and firmware.

For example, Canon could very simple add the magic lantern hacks to existing cameras, but they don't.

so they lose resolution!

better to improve their electronic read out chain after the Sensel/pixel and give us a high resolution camera with better DR at base iso

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 53,154
Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore...

altair8800 wrote:

Pallke wrote:

elfroggio wrote:

BTW, just in 2013, Canon has introduced 2 revolutionary cameras: the SL1, the smallest dSLR ever (cheap and excellent for its size selling extremely well in Japan) and the 70d with the dual pixels and the video autofocus (with STM lenses)

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Thanks
http://www.sritch.com
Street Photography: The Dogs of Vancouver, BC

The SL1 and the 70D are hardly revolutionary cameras.
Maybe nice... but far from groundbreaking.

You may be right about SL1. I think the 70D is the only DSLR other than medium frame that has 40 million photodiodes. I would have liked them to put that capability to better use, but still groundbreaking.

The PDAF ability is groundbreaking. Putting in 40 million 'photodiodes' less so, in its own right.

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Bob

AndyMulhearn Contributing Member • Posts: 568
Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore...
1

nick101 wrote:

David_C wrote:

For example, Canon could very simple add the magic lantern hacks to existing cameras, but they don't.

And, of course, take on liability for support, reliability, fault-fixing for software that has many known glitches. ML does a great job for people who are prepared to make the effort to know and understand its limitations. It's a long way from something that Canon would want to make a standard part of their offering.

I didn't read that comment that way. I read it as there are features that are available in ML that Canon could replicate in their own firmware versions not that they would ship and support ML.

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 4,624
Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore... three points....

peterharvey wrote:

I don't know for sure, but I suspect mobile phones, compacts, and even mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras will not affect dSLRs, in the short term anyway.

In the long term, if there was some type of miraculous breakthrough in technology, then the phone/compact/mirrorless may affect dSLR sales.

For now, the dSLR is safe...

Doubt it, I think Nikon and Canon have made a huge mistake in not keeping the 7D /D300 series up to technology, trying too hard to push FF alone.

OMD and Fuji have already made inroads and will continue to do so.

The mirror box is seeing its last days.  We are going to see some swift changes in the market.

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 53,154
Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore... three points....
1

Bajerunner wrote:

peterharvey wrote:

I don't know for sure, but I suspect mobile phones, compacts, and even mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras will not affect dSLRs, in the short term anyway.

In the long term, if there was some type of miraculous breakthrough in technology, then the phone/compact/mirrorless may affect dSLR sales.

For now, the dSLR is safe...

Doubt it, I think Nikon and Canon have made a huge mistake in not keeping the 7D /D300 series up to technology, trying too hard to push FF alone.

OMD and Fuji have already made inroads and will continue to do so.

I think that the Top end APS-C market is small, especially with bottom end FF competing in the same price range. The mirrorless cameras compete in a different market, and in any case don't offer so much that cameras like the 70D and D7100 don't. The frame rate with functioning VF and AF isn't much, if at all faster, and what use is an action camera without functioning VF?

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Bob

altair8800 Senior Member • Posts: 1,761
Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore...

bobn2 wrote:

altair8800 wrote:

Pallke wrote:

elfroggio wrote:

BTW, just in 2013, Canon has introduced 2 revolutionary cameras: the SL1, the smallest dSLR ever (cheap and excellent for its size selling extremely well in Japan) and the 70d with the dual pixels and the video autofocus (with STM lenses)

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Thanks
http://www.sritch.com
Street Photography: The Dogs of Vancouver, BC

The SL1 and the 70D are hardly revolutionary cameras.
Maybe nice... but far from groundbreaking.

You may be right about SL1. I think the 70D is the only DSLR other than medium frame that has 40 million photodiodes. I would have liked them to put that capability to better use, but still groundbreaking.

The PDAF ability is groundbreaking. Putting in 40 million 'photodiodes' less so, in its own right.

I agree with that, but PDAF is mainly useful for video. I would have preferred they apply that proven ability to 30Mp at 9 fps without PDAF. Maybe that will come with 7DII.

altair8800 Senior Member • Posts: 1,761
Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore... three points....

bobn2 wrote:

Bajerunner wrote:

peterharvey wrote:

I don't know for sure, but I suspect mobile phones, compacts, and even mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras will not affect dSLRs, in the short term anyway.

In the long term, if there was some type of miraculous breakthrough in technology, then the phone/compact/mirrorless may affect dSLR sales.

For now, the dSLR is safe...

Doubt it, I think Nikon and Canon have made a huge mistake in not keeping the 7D /D300 series up to technology, trying too hard to push FF alone.

OMD and Fuji have already made inroads and will continue to do so.

I think that the Top end APS-C market is small, especially with bottom end FF competing in the same price range. The mirrorless cameras compete in a different market,

And the bottom end FF compete in a different market from the top end APS-C. I want the best camera for my application and do not consider price range.

and in any case don't offer so much that cameras like the 70D and D7100 don't. The frame rate with functioning VF and AF isn't much, if at all faster, and what use is an action camera without functioning VF?

The bottom end FF frame rate is low and FF inferior. Not much use as an action camera.

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 53,154
Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore... three points....

altair8800 wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

Bajerunner wrote:

peterharvey wrote:

I don't know for sure, but I suspect mobile phones, compacts, and even mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras will not affect dSLRs, in the short term anyway.

In the long term, if there was some type of miraculous breakthrough in technology, then the phone/compact/mirrorless may affect dSLR sales.

For now, the dSLR is safe...

Doubt it, I think Nikon and Canon have made a huge mistake in not keeping the 7D /D300 series up to technology, trying too hard to push FF alone.

OMD and Fuji have already made inroads and will continue to do so.

I think that the Top end APS-C market is small, especially with bottom end FF competing in the same price range. The mirrorless cameras compete in a different market,

And the bottom end FF compete in a different market from the top end APS-C.

Yes and no. Markets are not completely separated. In the end, they consist of a whole load of different people seeking for different things. If someone looking to spend around $2k on a camera have one choice they will buy that, if they have several, some will choose differently. So, it's not the case that all 7D buyers bought it for its action capability. Some who would previously have bought it would undoubtedly consider the 6D, in fact you get quite a few threads here asking exactly that question. Then again, some who would have nought a 7D will consider that a 70D does the job, with its 7FPS and the 19 point AF, which reduces the market again.

I want the best camera for my application and do not consider price range.

But you are not a market, you are one person and there is no law that says camera manufacturers have to make a camera to your personal specification.

and in any case don't offer so much that cameras like the 70D and D7100 don't. The frame rate with functioning VF and AF isn't much, if at all faster, and what use is an action camera without functioning VF?

The bottom end FF frame rate is low and FF inferior. Not much use as an action camera.

The 70D has a higher frame rate. FF is inferior to what? Like the 1D X is inferior?

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Bob

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 53,154
Re: Canon doesn't really care anymore...

altair8800 wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

altair8800 wrote:

Pallke wrote:

elfroggio wrote:

BTW, just in 2013, Canon has introduced 2 revolutionary cameras: the SL1, the smallest dSLR ever (cheap and excellent for its size selling extremely well in Japan) and the 70d with the dual pixels and the video autofocus (with STM lenses)

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Thanks
http://www.sritch.com
Street Photography: The Dogs of Vancouver, BC

The SL1 and the 70D are hardly revolutionary cameras.
Maybe nice... but far from groundbreaking.

You may be right about SL1. I think the 70D is the only DSLR other than medium frame that has 40 million photodiodes. I would have liked them to put that capability to better use, but still groundbreaking.

The PDAF ability is groundbreaking. Putting in 40 million 'photodiodes' less so, in its own right.

I agree with that, but PDAF is mainly useful for video. I would have preferred they apply that proven ability to 30Mp at 9 fps without PDAF. Maybe that will come with 7DII.

I'm not sure they can do 30MP at 9FPS. They can do 18 at 12 (raw) which is 216MP/s with two DIGICs, 30 at 9 would be 270MP/s.

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Bob

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