re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

Started Jan 31, 2014 | Discussions
nevercat Veteran Member • Posts: 3,193
Re: Tom: about compromises...

Tom Caldwell wrote:

Just read a test of the GM1 over on the M4/3 forum. It claims very fast AF speed and high quality images but I will not try and talk you out of your self imposed aps-c limit. The GM1 is merely a very small camera that also provides excellent performance.

The GM1 is a very nice caamera with very nice features but, as every camera, it has its strong and weak points. One of the weak (and at te same time strong) point is the sensorsize.
The Sensorsize is not a real problem for technical IQ (yes low light performance will be slightly then a comparable APS camera (ISO 660 compared to 1015 for the Nex 5t) And Color depth is a bit lower (22.3 compared to 23.6 for the Nex 5t) And Dynamic Range is lower (11.7 compared to 13.0 for the Nex 5t). But these are all just numbers, in real life these things will not show up in every picture. But when you look at FF cameras the numbers get realy interesting, and they will show up in real life look at the numbers for the A7: Low light 2746 (2 stops better then the GM1), Color depth 25.6 and Dynamic Range 14.1) This shows that the large the sensor the better the IQ. The step up from m43 to APS is not very large and in real life maybe not visible, but from m43 to FF is a big step. I can understand that people comming from a FF camera will set the limmit on a APS camera, as that is a smaller step back then when to go to m43 or smaller...) When you look at the Nikon 1"sensored cameras the step between m43 and the 1"is about as big as that between m43 and APS. There are not many m43 users who want to switch
their camera for a Nikon 1 series.
When you look at depth of field, in portreits the larger sensor winns over the smaller sensor with lenses with the same FOV and apperture. When people are doing a lot of portreits it is nice to have a large sensor. When landscapes is your thing then a smaller sensor might be the better choice.

What camera is best for you is very personal, What camera handles best for you, what camera has the features you want or need, what camera gives the best results for your kind of photography etc.

When the Em1 is good for you, does not make it the best camera for an other. As I said, I would not buy it as I have trouble with using touchscreens, those things often not react when I touch them, so when it is the main use on a camera I will pass.

Just wait a moment someone is sure to make something much the same in apc-c. Ricoh? The GM1 is almost a prototype for something special in Ricoh livery.

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Tom Caldwell

GaryW Veteran Member • Posts: 8,980
Re: Tom: about compromises...

jpr2 wrote:

...for a stretch in my past I was shooting 6x6 cm and 645 MF formats, I-st with TLR Rolleis, and then with various Hassy, Bronica and Contax 645 bodies. And I'm still longing and miss those times.

Alas, the cost of film, processing, bulk and heft of the bodies, all conspired to make it not possible anymore.

As far as bulk is concerned, I recently discovered 120 "folders". These are pretty compact! Processing of film is a bit of a pain, still, of course, but if you're going to do film anyway....

So, the I-st compromise was to go FF film with various Eos'es. And then to APS-C with quite a chain of digitals (Eos'es again, although pretty quickly I got disappointed with xxxD and even xxD series, and settled on the 7d).

But one needs to stop somewhere - compromises are ugly, yes, but necessary... how much sad it might sound. Thus... APS-C is as small as I'm willing to accept, nothing smaller will do for me,sorry The DOF is acceptably thin if necessary, DR is passable, and I can live with the level of noise in low-light, high-ISO situations, but only just. These are pretty important, but I do not find them in m4/3 gear, and of course not in anything even smaller. Luckily the N7-classic arrived on the scene two years ago, together with Conurus smart adapters - solving the bulk+heft problem and yielding the best APS-C IQ results coupled with excellent cropability and reach advantage I've ever experienced.

I don't want to say that APS-C is a firm limit for me, but a long time ago, it seemed pretty obvious that "bigger is better" when it comes to sensors. Combine that with little price advantage to go with m43, and there ya go!

Nonetheless, my APS-C N7-classic compromise is not perfect - the missing component is of course its so horribly sluggish AF speed. Today I'm fed up with waiting for S. to finally muster enough brains and will to design and produce AF OSPDAF worthy an attempt to capture even most demanding fast, dynamic action shooting opportunities. Period.

I think a lot of the lag is improved just by the EFCS. This adds a lot to the perception of speed.  With OSPDAF, Sony may not be the fastest still, but how slow is it? It seems faster to some, not to others. I find it puzzling. Is it the mode people are using? The lens? The only thing I'm having a problem confirming is that it refocuses in speed burst mode; I think it can, with the right settings, but it is hard for it to keep up with 10fps and somewhat low light (which is the usual condition testing indoors).

Hence the interest in XT-1 - hoping that the preliminary reports of its [supposedly amazing] AF'ing capabilities are correct, and will be confirmed in real situations afield.

jpr2

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Gary W.

 GaryW's gear list:GaryW's gear list
Sony E 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 PZ OSS Sony Alpha DSLR-A100 Sony Alpha NEX-5 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony a6500 +10 more
OP jpr2 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,554
Tom: about compromises...

Tom Caldwell wrote:

Just read a test of the GM1 over on the M4/3 forum. It claims very fast AF speed and high quality images but I will not try and talk you out of your self imposed aps-c limit. The GM1 is merely a very small camera that also provides excellent performance.

Just wait a moment someone is sure to make something much the same in apc-c. Ricoh? The GM1 is almost a prototype for something special in Ricoh livery.

Tom,

yes, perhaps Ricoh will do it also - esp. now when Fuji [supposedly] blazed the trail of truly fast AF'in for dynamic action shooting/tracking wide open also for APS-C sensored MILC bodies  - the others will need to follow suit unless they want to stay behind . But somehow Ricoh was pretty adamantly "refusing" to include a built-in VFs into their models.

Just for the record, there were four impediment factors as specified over few posts above, the APS-C as a minimal sensor size is only the most prominent one, the remaining three for a MILC worth considering:

  • full complement of external controls (wheels and buttons) - as far as possible away from the menu-driven UI;
  • built-in EVF (with my personal twist = not a humpy-dumpy one);
  • fast, competent AF, powerful enough to give substantial ratio of keepers even at highly dynamic action shooting scenes;

jpr2

OP jpr2 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,554
re: the Nex-7 mk-II to be announced on Feb 12th ??

according to SAR's post today:

"According to multiple trusted sources Sony will have a press announcement next week on Wednesday February 12 at 5-6am London time! The event is focused on the launch of new mirrorless products.

Next week we can expect Sony to certainly announce the NEX-6/7 successor. The price of the body will be around 800 Euro and the improvements are mainly made on the SPEED front. Which means, faster fps, faster AF, faster EVF (no lag) and Bionz X processor".

if so, it'd be pretty quickly following XT-1 footsteps - although this part: "Nex-6/7" troubles me. As I'd very much prefer a "pure" Nex-7 upgrade with NO N6-type of compromises... (no plastic-fantastic body, no simplified-UI with reduced external controls, no reduced-resolution sensor, you know the gist). Thus, price point of 800 Euro might be not 'all is a blessing' type of gain - can't wait

jpr2

nevercat Veteran Member • Posts: 3,193
Re: re: the Nex-7 mk-II to be announced on Feb 12th ??

jpr2 wrote:

according to SAR's post today:

"According to multiple trusted sources Sony will have a press announcement next week on Wednesday February 12 at 5-6am London time! The event is focused on the launch of new mirrorless products.

Next week we can expect Sony to certainly announce the NEX-6/7 successor. The price of the body will be around 800 Euro and the improvements are mainly made on the SPEED front. Which means, faster fps, faster AF, faster EVF (no lag) and Bionz X processor".

if so, it'd be pretty quickly following XT-1 footsteps - although this part: "Nex-6/7" troubles me. As I'd very much prefer a "pure" Nex-7 upgrade with NO N6-type of compromises... (no plastic-fantastic body, no simplified-UI with reduced external controls, no reduced-resolution sensor, you know the gist). Thus, price point of 800 Euro might be not 'all is a blessing' type of gain - can't wait

I know what you mean, but I think that the (surpricingly low) price of the A7 makes it hard to justify a APS camera just below the price of the A7. So they have to make a compromise there. On the other hand I think that the sensor will be a 24 MP sensor, the body will be more plastic then the Nex7 and the controls will be a lot like the Nex 7. Just my thoughts, I do not work for Sony ofr have connections there, so it is nothhing more then speculation!

jpr2

GaryW Veteran Member • Posts: 8,980
Re: re: the Nex-7 mk-II to be announced on Feb 12th ??

jpr2 wrote:

according to SAR's post today:

"According to multiple trusted sources Sony will have a press announcement next week on Wednesday February 12 at 5-6am London time! The event is focused on the launch of new mirrorless products.

Next week we can expect Sony to certainly announce the NEX-6/7 successor. The price of the body will be around 800 Euro and the improvements are mainly made on the SPEED front. Which means, faster fps, faster AF, faster EVF (no lag) and Bionz X processor".

Sounds good.

if so, it'd be pretty quickly following XT-1 footsteps - although this part: "Nex-6/7" troubles me. As I'd very much prefer a "pure" Nex-7 upgrade with NO N6-type of compromises... (no plastic-fantastic body, no simplified-UI with reduced external controls, no reduced-resolution sensor, you know the gist). Thus, price point of 800 Euro might be not 'all is a blessing' type of gain - can't wait

What is "reduced external controls" referring to?  The lack of tri-navi?  It gains a traditional mode dial, which seems to be in fashion.

My beef isn't the controls, it's that they could have made some small improvements to maximize the use of the controls, such as the old dial control on the back.

Of course, a Nex-7 replacement should get Nex-6 improvements....

jpr2

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Gary W.

 GaryW's gear list:GaryW's gear list
Sony E 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 PZ OSS Sony Alpha DSLR-A100 Sony Alpha NEX-5 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony a6500 +10 more
Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 37,453
The GM1 is unique and is no competitor

Thanks for the little GM1 chat - I think we are about to run out of posting room on this thread. As a personal explanation - I am not trying to "sell" anyone the GM1 but simply bringing this quite remarkable camera to general notice.

It is not for everyone for the obvious reasons but it is a pretty good product where the smallest practical size has been matched to a useful sized sensor. Where is is just as amazing in its own right as the A7 is in its sensor-size field is that it does work so well and Panasonic has provided a very satisfactory user interface that is arguably quite as good as the A7 type, certainly friendlier, and also a more enthusiast level operating system with features such as interval shooting and four custom modes that NEX users could only dream about.  Six configurable function keys plus quickmenu to the NEX single function key (effectively quickemu) and two fairly limited versatility softkeys. Then other buttons which they both have in common.  the NEX6 does have an extra wheel, but the GM1 is so configured that an extra wheel is hardly necessary.

So the NEX6 is more GX7 class and the A7 is in a class by itself. The GM1 is pretty unique and simply "interesting", not competing directly.

I will limit my response to a single post to give room for last replies

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Tom Caldwell

OP jpr2 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,554
Tom: by popular demand here is the link to the part III

Tom Caldwell wrote:

Thanks for the little GM1 chat - I think we are about to run out of posting room on this thread. As a personal explanation - I am not trying to "sell" anyone the GM1 but simply bringing this quite remarkable camera to general notice.

here it goes yet more space to continue.

It is not for everyone for the obvious reasons but it is a pretty good product where the smallest practical size has been matched to a useful sized sensor. Where is is just as amazing in its own right as the A7 is in its sensor-size field is that it does work so well and Panasonic has provided a very satisfactory user interface that is arguably quite as good as the A7 type, certainly friendlier, and also a more enthusiast level operating system with features such as interval shooting and four custom modes that NEX users could only dream about. Six configurable function keys plus quickmenu to the NEX single function key (effectively quickemu) and two fairly limited versatility softkeys. Then other buttons which they both have in common. the NEX6 does have an extra wheel, but the GM1 is so configured that an extra wheel is hardly necessary.

I do value your explorations and insight. It is just that mine style, and ingrained habits from over four decades in photography, are seemingly at odds with the smartphones/tablets screen-poking and multitude of menu-hidden options. Give me as many direct external controls, old-timers style, and I'd be happy. Also shooting at arms-length with no built-in VF is not going to enamour me with any camera skimpy on features and VF-less.

The sensor size might be a personal predilections, but the basic operational controls simply must be present for any serious enjoyment of shooting experience IMO.

So the NEX6 is more GX7 class and the A7 is in a class by itself. The GM1 is pretty unique and simply "interesting", not competing directly.

I will limit my response to a single post to give room for last replies

feel free to use all the space here, and then we can happily spill over to the part III

jpr2

nevercat Veteran Member • Posts: 3,193
Re: The GM1 is unique and is no competitor

Tom Caldwell wrote:

Thanks for the little GM1 chat - I think we are about to run out of posting room on this thread. As a personal explanation - I am not trying to "sell" anyone the GM1 but simply bringing this quite remarkable camera to general notice.

It is not for everyone for the obvious reasons but it is a pretty good product where the smallest practical size has been matched to a useful sized sensor. Where is is just as amazing in its own right as the A7 is in its sensor-size field is that it does work so well and Panasonic has provided a very satisfactory user interface that is arguably quite as good as the A7 type, certainly friendlier, and also a more enthusiast level operating system with features such as interval shooting and four custom modes that NEX users could only dream about. Six configurable function keys plus quickmenu to the NEX single function key (effectively quickemu) and two fairly limited versatility softkeys.

Nex has more softkeys then two. Look at the Nex 7 The AEL/focus button is in fact a customizable soft key, Then you have the centre key of the control wheel on the back, it can house 3 functions, so it is in fact 3 soft keys, then there is the right swich on the control wheel that is a adaptable soft button, and at last there is the soft buton on the bottom. So if fact the Nex 7 houses 6 softbuttons and a quickmenu.

Then other buttons which they both have in common. the NEX6 does have an extra wheel, but the GM1 is so configured that an extra wheel is hardly necessary.

So the NEX6 is more GX7 class and the A7 is in a class by itself. The GM1 is pretty unique and simply "interesting", not competing directly.

The only real thing about the GM1 that makes it unique is its size for the rest it is like many other m43 cameras. So it i a good camera for people who want a realy small package with moderate to high IQ.

The Nex 5x Is in many ways the camera that is compeeting with the Panasonic GM1. When you want the smallest camera you go for the GM1, if you want an articulating LCD screen, the option of an EVF, a larger sensor, then the Nex 5 is more for you.

If you want on top of that a build in EVF, the Nex 6 is a very good choice.

And do you want a small FF camera then there are only the A7 and A7r (not counting the over expensive Leica cameras)

So the GM1 is a great little camera, but to make it that small they had to cut some corners. Like no externa flash possible, no EVF possible, no grip standard, adding the grip will make the camera larger, and more expensive. And for me the biggest downside of the camera is that I have to control it mainly by the touchscreen. Touchscreens are no freinds with my hands, often the touchscreen of my phone will not react, others who sometimes use my phone have no problems there, so I will not buy a camera with an interface that might not work under all conditions with me... (that is very personal, as I see that many people have no problem with touchscreens)

I will limit my response to a single post to give room for last replies

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Tom Caldwell

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