re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

Started Jan 31, 2014 | Discussions
nzmacro
nzmacro Forum Pro • Posts: 16,048
So there is none for Fuji
1

jpr2 wrote:

nzmacro wrote:

What long lenses does Fuji have and at what fast aperture ?? For the life of me I can't find them.

Danny.

...a consumer class zoom, granted a top quality lens (seems to me better build and IQ than SEL 55-210), but consumer grade nonetheless. But this is of much less consequence for me than the lack of smart EF-mount to XF-mount adapters = nobody offers anything even close to Conurus/MB ones enabling to mount Canon EF/EF-S lenses on the Fuji XF-body

jpr2

Thanks Q, not exactly what I think of as a long lens and a zoom that ends up at 200mm F/4.8. Hmmm, not good odds I would far sooner go Sony A mount lenses with a PDAF adaptor for E mount in that case. Makes far more sense.

I was hoping to see a decent tele for Fuji after his comments about non Sony long lenses !!. They haven't got one either, LOL.

All the best Q, think I would pass on that as a fast tele lens

Danny.

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socode Regular Member • Posts: 356
Re: Also...

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Even on A-mount we may be looking at a revised lens lineup. So, SLT may not be going anywhere, ratger mirrorless may be an added feature with A-mount lenses revised to support both.

And E-mount gets only the mirrorless treatment.

Absolutely. I'm most surprised that they are doing a 70-200/4 for FE, since it is much the same size/weight as a A mount would have been, and it's a clear gap on A mount the price of the 2.8.

Jorginho Forum Pro • Posts: 14,719
Someone who starts a thread that way
2

Can count on your (supposed) sabotage. We are talking about a cam we have previews on and some shots...And that is putting pressure on Sony? How is EM1 not pressure, how is the new GH4 especially no pressure. GX7? GM1....all real cams ranging in sizes and specs.

Sony has been very clever I think with the FF A7 series. There is virtually no threat. No cam has that unique sensor for a mirrorless cam.

The 7000 series simply would have entered an already competitive market. The Fuji is not going to change a lot about this.

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stevo23 Forum Pro • Posts: 21,128
Re: re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

captura wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

captura wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

...as the part-I run into a wall of 150 posts per thread limit, due in not small degree to a myriad of one-liner posts by few users well known for such a tactic - who always try to derail threads they don't agree with, here is the part-II.

in particular just take a peek on very many examples here,including quite well documented series of moderately fast action, where XT-1 seems to coped pretty well. Also the SOOC images are quite amazing - already with XP-1 I was smitten by such excellent IQ from a low Mpx sensor, but these look even better

I seriously don't think there was a concerted effort to sink your original thread, I really hope it was no "tactic". Folks are allowed to disagree and they don't have to say much. I'm not sure I see why one has to be accused of such.

Clearly you are smitten with the X-T1 and if you are after what it does, this is good news. But the point is well made by many - this isn't any more pressure on Sony than prior and I don't see it putting them off their game at all. The few incrementally improved features of the X-T1 don't add up to enough for me. Fuji's eventually going to have to get off the 16Mp sensor to truly compete.

" The few incrementally improved features of the X-T1 don't add up to enough for me. Fuji's eventually going to have to get off the 16Mp sensor to truly compete."

I doubt that very much.

Well, that's only me I'm talking about.

The need for more megapixels is an important factor in the carefully nurtured culture of the NEX-HUMP forum, and 16 mp may really be sufficient for an APS-C sensor. Uncrowded larger pixels mean less noise than for example, a 16 mp sensor in an M43 camera.

We want to think so. But then look at the GX7 - smaller, lighter, feather weight lenses. Why buy a heavier, bulkier camera if the resolution is basically the same?

Resolution is only part of the story. As I said, having the same 16 mpxls on a quarter-sensor like M43, which is half the size of the APS-C sensor, makes for pixel crowding, and smaller pixels are used. THis equates to more noise, and remedies can result in blurring. So in all, IQ isnot as high. The ability to use much smaller lenses and even bodies is the benefit, and the latest extreme example of this is the GM1. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonic-lumix-dmc-gm1

What I'm saying is that pixel size has nothing to do with overall noise (and DR). Noise is a function of the overall design of the sensor. Read noise is the contributing factor and the D800 is a great example - very small pixel pitch, very low noise. The two are not inextricably linked - this is a myth.

Compare D600 with EM5...

D600: http://sensorgen.info/NikonD600.html

OM-EM5: http://sensorgen.info/OlympusOM-D_E-M5.html

Of course there's the whole issue of enlargement etc - I'm not arguing that point. But the read noise of the EM5 goes below that of the D600 in many places. And yet, it's pixels are considerably smaller.

What does matter to me is that as the frame size decreases, the required resolving power of the lens has to go up to maintain the same sharpness no matter the spatial resolution of the sensor. Larger sensors can allow some relaxation of the resolving power and therefore more attention to other factors that equally contribute to higher image quality than smaller sensors.

This being said, APS-C and Full Frame are hardly different vs. each other. Looking at frame size isn't as useful as looking at read noise, dynamic range and overall resolution. It's completely possible that a 16MP M43 could make images that best the Fuji @ 10MP. In order for Fuji to keep Olympus from clipping their heels, they need to increase resolution.

I was interested in the XE1 because it was small and light, albeit the lenses were kind of heavy.

They NEED to be.

- They are APSC

- They are built for QUALITY.

Weight and quality are not particularly linked. Leica lenses are very small and light and yet the cover full frame image circle. Read Roger Cicala's article about this.

But now, the XT1 is here and it's...huge. For that kind of bulk and same weight, I think I would rather the A7.

I just looked it up and it surprised me; it's about the same size as the A7. But then, so is the E-M1, The Olympus M43 camera. This is what you get when you build in the HUMPED body-style. Hopefully the upcoming NEX-7 replacement camera will be smaller and lighter.

Agreed. Maybe people have related that they want some bulk and heft?

It all comes down to what you value. I don't value an extra 5 milliseconds AF speed.

Design and execution. And this is just ME thinking. The Fuji might be better over-all than your A7. We shall see.

In AF, sure. But not in image quality.

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OP jpr2 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,554
re: no offense but...
1

Jorginho wrote:

We are talking about a cam we have previews on and some shots...And that is putting pressure on Sony? How is EM1 not pressure, how is the new GH4 especially no pressure. GX7? GM1....all real cams ranging in sizes and specs.

...these are all tiny sensored cams - no competition at all, hence no pressure either . You seem to be heavily invested in m4/3 gear, so what happens with APS-C and larger sensored cams poses no threat to you obviously, nor to Nikon's N1/N2, nor to P&S or compacts

jpr2

captura Forum Pro • Posts: 27,080
Re: Danny: none, the 55-200/3.5-4.8 is their longest...

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

Nex 6 AF is on par with Fuji XE1 after firmware upgrades. Not sure about XE2- that is probably faster and snappier. But still not good for moving objects. XT1 holds a lo of promise here and seems to be the first APS mirrorless to be able to provide tracking AF that works - to be seen for sure once its out there.

I have an XE1, had a Fuji X100s but now my prime camera is an A7r. I still have the XE1. I really haven't used it since I got the A7r. That tells a story.

There are long threads about how Fuji APS is as good as full frame and perhaps there is some truth to that but full frame is hard to beat. Mainly from a field of view aspect. Full frame simply gives a wider field of view. That is hard to give up once you are used to it. DOF comes into it as well and I saw an excellent comparison of 5D111 and XE2 with various lenses on the Fuji forum. Blurred backgrounds seemed much easier to get on the 5D3.

Fuji has a powerful lens lineup which is just getting stronger.

But Sony has these amazing Zeiss FE lenses which are proving to be the best around.

I for one am completely happy with my A7r. The only thing that would have me upgrade from it would be a A8r with 54mp full frame, excellent low light high ISO, fast tracking AF, better EVF.

But that's probably next year!

If Nex 7 replacement could get IBIS it would be an amazing move by Sony.

Fuji's 16mp sensor ceiling seems to be more about maturing the camera body whilst working behind the scenes to perfect its organic sensor which could really make it the hot camera to have. That is likely in an XPro 2 later this year/early next year.

Would I replace my A7r with XT1? Hell no. I expect much the same IQ as my XE1 but better camera body performance all round.

Am I planning to get an XT1 to complement my A7r?

Well yes of course! They are the best of both brands.

Greg.

But the FE lenses are showing not to offer any significant advantage to APS-C users.

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Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 37,335
Ricoh gallops to the rescue
1

nzmacro wrote:

Personal view only.

By the sound of it the EVF is superb !! Especially what its capable of, that appeals. The remote, very, very nice. Both very clever.

The Ricoh GXR, now aging, but surely still working as well as it ever did has a clip on evf which would be regarded as behind current technology, but it works and has that 90 degree swivel.  It also works well with the two alternative versions of focus peaking that Ricoh supplies, see below.

That's from what I've seen so far. With MF users we can swing between a lot of mirroless options, Olympus, Panasonic ..... m4/3, Fuji, Samsung, etc.

Ricoh, which does try and give a little more.

And then there's NEX What I've always wondered with these other cameras that have adopted focus peaking is, are they as versatile with FP as the Sony. Do they have similar or are they totally different. That would be a deal breaker and so would front shutter. Then we have the APS-c 24mp sensor for cropping.

Ricoh focus peaking summary: Mode 1, similar to the Sony system but white flares only, does not have user adjust but does not seem to need it either as both Ricoh focus peaking systems seem to have their strength scaled to the level of magnification . The Ricoh system is free of ink blot super strength and has less propensity to disappar when the screen is magnified.  More magnification steps and the level of magnification can be adjusted instantly and on the fly.  Mode 2 does not seem to be flare base edge peaking at all, but something else and quite unique.  This type turns the whole image into enhanced edge grey scale where all edges are highlighted.  When in focus the edges sharpen and darken but even oof edges can be seen, always, even at full magnification.  When the desired portion of the image comes into focus it literally jumps out of the screen, no more peering for faint coloured edge traces.  In use this method at first looks odd but after using it for a while one starts wondering why anyone would use any other type.  Because in focus is so very obvious it becomes very fast to achieve.  Also the fact that it stays strong at full magnification the user can precise focus easily on the smallest detail.

Furthermore the strongest shot in the Ricoh FP locker is that it is only temporarily cancelled at soft shutter press, by releasing the shutter you go back to exactly the same FP screen that you left.

As a further benefit Ricoh focus peaking (both modes) can be used in AF as well.  I wonder why this option is not on other systems.  Certainly even when using AF good focus peaking can give a fair representation of the dof of the image which is a side benefit little discussed.  Change the aperture and watch the dof change with it. This only works of course with their AF modules.

I like full screen magnification but variable position/size centre part magnification is part of the parcel for those that prefer it.

Personally the NEX-7 has been far beyond its years and its going to take one heck of a camera to get some of us to change.

Both the NEX7 and the NEX6 have more up to date sensors that the Sony sourced A12 sensor in the GXR with M mount module, but that does not stop GXR fanatics and the sensor was specifically modified for the mount module to Ricoh specifications with microlenses to better utilise wide angle lenses.  The mount module is a faithful MF only replica of the internals of a Leica RF body and therefore there are few limitations on which RF lenses can be mounted.

If I was into fast AF, it would be a DSLR or an SLT. Thank goodness that doesn't come into it and allows us to simply change to any mirrorless camera or brand. Next camera this end has to have 1/8000, I know where that can be useful. I prefer the EVF at the left and not in the centre. I know the difference and have used a centre EVF before in the Panasonic. Doesn't appeal going back to that to be honest. Rear LCD screen, well if it wasn't there it wouldn't worry me at all. Its not used.

At the end of the day, why change

All the best and yep, something special needs to get the NEX-7 away from my hands. Maybe a new version of it.

You might get lucky Danny, cross fingers and toes and maybe Ricoh might update their GXR body and mount module.  But be patient - there is not even a wild rumour that they are even thinking about it.

In the end I find that the NEX6 takes great images, I really like the evf and tilt lcd.  I am less in love with the very basic limitations on configurability and the focus peaking compared to the Ricoh system is simply in the better than nothing class.  My most recent love affair is with the tiny Panasonic GM1 - no use whatsoever for your style of work but an example that even a camera with point'n'shoot pretensions can have a much larger suit of configurability than my NEX6.  Compared to the NEX6 the GM1 is a real powerhouse under the hood.  six configurable function keys no less and five of them well-using the touch screen in a most natural interface, then an  (up to) fifteen slot quickmenu. Sony should be wise to take a lesson there - compare the control elegance of the almost bare GM1 to the be-buttoned, be-wheeled cacophony of the A7 type.

Of course the GM1 is a world away from the user needs of those that buy the A7 type or the new Fuji  so they are not directly relevent. And of course the focus peaking in the GM1 is of similar type to the Sony system, it might be marginally better.

Danny.

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Tom Caldwell

gil Forum Pro • Posts: 16,735
There you go again. Here is an old 7-shot BIF take off/landing...(more)

. I guess these are not really that embarrassing even if taken just by the NEX F3 :-D. I am sure the Fuji could take as well similar panning shots but I am not sure if the new Fuji model is superior (to one who is willing to practice/experiment, have fun and exploit the available capability even if not the best). Cameras/lenses/gear capabilities are just some of the factors for enjoyable photography. Even the best gears when not utilized properly won't really matter to the enjoyment unless one just enjoys armchair or virtual photography.

cheers,

gil

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Cheers,
gil - San Jose, CA
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Like happiness, photography is often better created than pursued.

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captura Forum Pro • Posts: 27,080
Re: re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

stevo23 wrote:

captura wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

captura wrote:

stevo23 wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

...as the part-I run into a wall of 150 posts per thread limit, due in not small degree to a myriad of one-liner posts by few users well known for such a tactic - who always try to derail threads they don't agree with, here is the part-II.

in particular just take a peek on very many examples here,including quite well documented series of moderately fast action, where XT-1 seems to coped pretty well. Also the SOOC images are quite amazing - already with XP-1 I was smitten by such excellent IQ from a low Mpx sensor, but these look even better

I seriously don't think there was a concerted effort to sink your original thread, I really hope it was no "tactic". Folks are allowed to disagree and they don't have to say much. I'm not sure I see why one has to be accused of such.

Clearly you are smitten with the X-T1 and if you are after what it does, this is good news. But the point is well made by many - this isn't any more pressure on Sony than prior and I don't see it putting them off their game at all. The few incrementally improved features of the X-T1 don't add up to enough for me. Fuji's eventually going to have to get off the 16Mp sensor to truly compete.

" The few incrementally improved features of the X-T1 don't add up to enough for me. Fuji's eventually going to have to get off the 16Mp sensor to truly compete."

I doubt that very much.

Well, that's only me I'm talking about.

The need for more megapixels is an important factor in the carefully nurtured culture of the NEX-HUMP forum, and 16 mp may really be sufficient for an APS-C sensor. Uncrowded larger pixels mean less noise than for example, a 16 mp sensor in an M43 camera.

We want to think so. But then look at the GX7 - smaller, lighter, feather weight lenses. Why buy a heavier, bulkier camera if the resolution is basically the same?

Resolution is only part of the story. As I said, having the same 16 mpxls on a quarter-sensor like M43, which is half the size of the APS-C sensor, makes for pixel crowding, and smaller pixels are used. THis equates to more noise, and remedies can result in blurring. So in all, IQ isnot as high. The ability to use much smaller lenses and even bodies is the benefit, and the latest extreme example of this is the GM1. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonic-lumix-dmc-gm1

What I'm saying is that pixel size has nothing to do with overall noise (and DR). Noise is a function of the overall design of the sensor. Read noise is the contributing factor and the D800 is a great example - very small pixel pitch, very low noise. The two are not inextricably linked - this is a myth.

Pixel crowding does creat noise and I got tired of posting the proof of this a long time ago.

Compare D600 with EM5...

D600: http://sensorgen.info/NikonD600.html

OM-EM5: http://sensorgen.info/OlympusOM-D_E-M5.html

Of course there's the whole issue of enlargement etc - I'm not arguing that point. But the read noise of the EM5 goes below that of the D600 in many places. And yet, it's pixels are considerably smaller.

What does matter to me is that as the frame size decreases, the required resolving power of the lens has to go up to maintain the same sharpness no matter the spatial resolution of the sensor. Larger sensors can allow some relaxation of the resolving power and therefore more attention to other factors that equally contribute to higher image quality than smaller sensors.

This being said, APS-C and Full Frame are hardly different vs. each other. Looking at frame size isn't as useful as looking at read noise, dynamic range and overall resolution. It's completely possible that a 16MP M43 could make images that best the Fuji @ 10MP. In order for Fuji to keep Olympus from clipping their heels, they need to increase resolution.

I was interested in the XE1 because it was small and light, albeit the lenses were kind of heavy.

They NEED to be.

- They are APSC

- They are built for QUALITY.

Weight and quality are not particularly linked. Leica lenses are very small and light and yet the cover full frame image circle. Read Roger Cicala's article about this.

But now, the XT1 is here and it's...huge. For that kind of bulk and same weight, I think I would rather the A7.

I just looked it up and it surprised me; it's about the same size as the A7. But then, so is the E-M1, The Olympus M43 camera. This is what you get when you build in the HUMPED body-style. Hopefully the upcoming NEX-7 replacement camera will be smaller and lighter.

Agreed. Maybe people have related that they want some bulk and heft?

It all comes down to what you value. I don't value an extra 5 milliseconds AF speed.

Design and execution. And this is just ME thinking. The Fuji might be better over-all than your A7. We shall see.

In AF, sure. But not in image quality.

One of the continuous unrelenting myths of this forum is the supposed huge inferiority of the M43 cameras. Since Joringo has shown up, I'd love for him to offer more comments on all this.

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DT200 Contributing Member • Posts: 835
Its why Sony quit APS

Jorginho wrote:

Can count on your (supposed) sabotage. We are talking about a cam we have previews on and some shots...And that is putting pressure on Sony? How is EM1 not pressure, how is the new GH4 especially no pressure. GX7? GM1....all real cams ranging in sizes and specs.

Sony has been very clever I think with the FF A7 series. There is virtually no threat. No cam has that unique sensor for a mirrorless cam.

The 7000 series simply would have entered an already competitive market. The Fuji is not going to change a lot about this.

Sony has fallen way behind Fuji in the APS mirrorless race now.  When Canon and Nikon decide to jump in they know they will quickly fall to the 5% they are at in the DSLR sector.   They only have one option and that is to focus on the expensive niche of mirrorless FF cameras.  It may only be about 3% of the market, but they can make higher profits from people buying those $1000 lenses.   You won't see anymore inexpensive APS sized lenses for a very long time if ever from Sony.

The plan is working well too.  Look at the people who bought $300 camera bodies and a couple $300 lenses who are now spending $5000 on one body and 2 or 3 lenses.   Too bad the camera can't focus on anything moving.

OP jpr2 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,554
Gil: most beautiful light - really great :)

gil wrote:

. I guess these are not really that embarrassing even if taken just by the NEX F3 :-D. I am sure the Fuji could take as well similar panning shots but I am not sure if the new Fuji model is superior (to one who is willing to practice/experiment, have fun and exploit the available capability even if not the best). Cameras/lenses/gear capabilities are just some of the factors for enjoyable photography. Even the best gears when not utilized properly won't really matter to the enjoyment unless one just enjoys armchair or virtual photography.

cheers,

gil

However, as an example of N3's AF prowess these do not suffice: as plane of motion was very much parallel to that you the sensor = challenging the photographer's patience for sure in a wait till it all happened - this is certain, but not a very challenging for tracking etc Excellent job nonetheless !!

jpr2

nevercat Veteran Member • Posts: 3,193
Re: Its why Sony quit APS
2

DT200 wrote:

Jorginho wrote:

Can count on your (supposed) sabotage. We are talking about a cam we have previews on and some shots...And that is putting pressure on Sony? How is EM1 not pressure, how is the new GH4 especially no pressure. GX7? GM1....all real cams ranging in sizes and specs.

Sony has been very clever I think with the FF A7 series. There is virtually no threat. No cam has that unique sensor for a mirrorless cam.

The 7000 series simply would have entered an already competitive market. The Fuji is not going to change a lot about this.

Sony has fallen way behind Fuji in the APS mirrorless race now. When Canon and Nikon decide to jump in they know they will quickly fall to the 5% they are at in the DSLR sector.

Did you read the news? Canon did come with a mirrorless camera with APS sensor and guess what? They didn't even make it to the 5% Sony is in with their DSLRs....

They only have one option and that is to focus on the expensive niche of mirrorless FF cameras. It may only be about 3% of the market, but they can make higher profits from people buying those $1000 lenses. You won't see anymore inexpensive APS sized lenses for a very long time if ever from Sony.

Who told you that? I've seen rumors that witn the Nex 7 successor some new APS lenses will be launched too. And guess what? The FF lenses work perfectly well on the APS cameras too, and not all of those lenses will be in the $1000,00 range!

The plan is working well too. Look at the people who bought $300 camera bodies and a couple $300 lenses who are now spending $5000 on one body and 2 or 3 lenses. Too bad the camera can't focus on anything moving.

To bad that some people can't make the camera focussing on anything moving, most of the real users can make the camera do that, but hey they only use the camera and you only write about it...

socode Regular Member • Posts: 356
Re: Its why Sony quit APS
2

DT200 wrote:

Jorginho wrote:

Can count on your (supposed) sabotage. We are talking about a cam we have previews on and some shots...And that is putting pressure on Sony? How is EM1 not pressure, how is the new GH4 especially no pressure. GX7? GM1....all real cams ranging in sizes and specs.

Sony has been very clever I think with the FF A7 series. There is virtually no threat. No cam has that unique sensor for a mirrorless cam.

The 7000 series simply would have entered an already competitive market. The Fuji is not going to change a lot about this.

Sony has fallen way behind Fuji in the APS mirrorless race now.

I agree they are figuring out how to move upmarket - why wouldn't you go where higher margins are?

But Sony have the top-selling mirrorless model, and Sony and Olympus are probably 50% of the mirrorless market between them. Where does Fuji fit into that?

socode Regular Member • Posts: 356
Re: re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

stevo23 wrote:

Agreed. Maybe people have related that they want some bulk and heft?

Right. The NEX-7 is at the borderline of comfortable holding for me IMHO.

Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 37,335
Another witches breakfast?

jpr2 wrote:

...as the part-I run into a wall of 150 posts per thread limit, due in not small degree to a myriad of one-liner posts by few users well known for such a tactic - who always try to derail threads they don't agree with, here is the part-II.

in particular just take a peek on very many examples here,including quite well documented series of moderately fast action, where XT-1 seems to coped pretty well. Also the SOOC images are quite amazing - already with XP-1 I was smitten by such excellent IQ from a low Mpx sensor, but these look even better

jpr2

I am into ergonomic controls and intuitive to use and the Sony A7 type is only a pass mark at best in my book. No doubt that those who just use cameras and work around the deficiencies so a to hardly notice them find the A7 type just fine. Is the XT-1 better in the user experience than the A7 type?

Given that for some time all digital cameras have had enough performance for most purposes I can trade off some gee-whizz latest technology for the sheer pleasure of a camera that is (instantly) at one with my personal needs. This is even if it takes a day or so to patiently work through the manual and custom settings to make any camera a reflection of my photographic personality. I am not into awkwardly placed controls that "you get used to" or plinking around menus an sub-menus for some function that I use often, neatly by-passing sometimes very useful function that I never use and is in my face because I cannot move it out of sight.

Buttons hidden in crevices and wheels that can only be moved by running ones finger around the edge (rather than on the knurled flats where the finger should always be). Wheels that are either to ratchety and stiff or so free that changes are made inadvertently. Big red video buttons placed right under your thumb - not configurable to do anything else and always painted bright red like a target for a bull. A great irritation if you don't "do video". Flush fit buttons (especially those lined up in a row) which have to be looked at to be sure and often have the fingers pressing aimlessly groping at hard surface whilst trying to find them by touch in the dark. Controls placed in thumb or finger dislocating positions that are always assuredly the ones that you might use most often. Buttons scattered randomly where micro-spaces can be found by engineers rather than placed sensibly in locations found by designers using ergonomic principles.

Above all once some good egonomic layouts have been determined then throw it all away for some other witches breakfast whenever a new model eventuates.

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Tom Caldwell

captura Forum Pro • Posts: 27,080
Re: Gil: most beautiful light - really great :)

Beautiful!

Nothing wrong with the F3. Did you use the 55-210?

Steve

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Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 37,335
Re: Greg: lot of sense in your reasoning - and the Fuji lens lineup plans...

jpr2 wrote:

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

Nex 6 AF is on par with Fuji XE1 after firmware upgrades. Not sure about XE2- that is probably faster and snappier. But still not good for moving objects. XT1 holds a lo of promise here and seems to be the first APS mirrorless to be able to provide tracking AF that works - to be seen for sure once its out there.

I have an XE1, had a Fuji X100s but now my prime camera is an A7r. I still have the XE1. I really haven't used it since I got the A7r. That tells a story.

There are long threads about how Fuji APS is as good as full frame and perhaps there is some truth to that but full frame is hard to beat. Mainly from a field of view aspect. Full frame simply gives a wider field of view. That is hard to give up once you are used to it. DOF comes into it as well and I saw an excellent comparison of 5D111 and XE2 with various lenses on the Fuji forum. Blurred backgrounds seemed much easier to get on the 5D3.

Fuji has a powerful lens lineup which is just getting stronger.

But Sony has these amazing Zeiss FE lenses which are proving to be the best around.

I for one am completely happy with my A7r. The only thing that would have me upgrade from it would be a A8r with 54mp full frame, excellent low light high ISO, fast tracking AF, better EVF.

But that's probably next year!

If Nex 7 replacement could get IBIS it would be an amazing move by Sony.

Fuji's 16mp sensor ceiling seems to be more about maturing the camera body whilst working behind the scenes to perfect its organic sensor which could really make it the hot camera to have. That is likely in an XPro 2 later this year/early next year.

Would I replace my A7r with XT1? Hell no. I expect much the same IQ as my XE1 but better camera body performance all round.

Am I planning to get an XT1 to complement my A7r?

Well yes of course! They are the best of both brands.

Greg.

...are bit on a shortish side too - not a single prime beyond a normal FLs range:

Fujinon XF roadmap till the 2015

And yet I rather doubt that the A7r mk-II will achieve AF'ing speed we can observe in the 5d3 or 1Dx, or even a speed of the 5d2 (which is rather sedate at best) seems beyond reach of S's MILCs

jpr2

Long high quality prime lenses must cost a lot to develop and build and would be made in relatively small numbers for a quite specialist market.  Obviously this makes them expensive and exclusive.  The older established makers have built up their system lenses over a long period of time and include examples or rarer, more expensive types.  I cannot see any commercial merit for a company with a brand new mount system in concentrating on other than the more popular lens types for some time.  Therefore Fuji might be short on the "rare" types of lenses for a good while to come.

By the same token the popular lens types are "more popular" for many by definition so why should many care?

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Tom Caldwell

OP jpr2 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,554
Tom: another witches breakfast? - hopefully NOT

Tom Caldwell wrote:

I am into ergonomic controls and intuitive to use and the Sony A7 type is only a pass mark at best in my book. No doubt that those who just use cameras and work around the deficiencies so a to hardly notice them find the A7 type just fine. Is the XT-1 better in the user experience than the A7 type?

Given that for some time all digital cameras have had enough performance for most purposes I can trade off some gee-whizz latest technology for the sheer pleasure of a camera that is (instantly) at one with my personal needs. This is even if it takes a day or so to patiently work through the manual and custom settings to make any camera a reflection of my photographic personality. I am not into awkwardly placed controls that "you get used to" or plinking around menus an sub-menus for some function that I use often, neatly by-passing sometimes very useful function that I never use and is in my face because I cannot move it out of sight.

Buttons hidden in crevices and wheels that can only be moved by running ones finger around the edge (rather than on the knurled flats where the finger should always be). Wheels that are either to ratchety and stiff or so free that changes are made inadvertently. Big red video buttons placed right under your thumb - not configurable to do anything else and always painted bright red like a target for a bull. A great irritation if you don't "do video". Flush fit buttons (especially those lined up in a row) which have to be looked at to be sure and often have the fingers pressing aimlessly groping at hard surface whilst trying to find them by touch in the dark. Controls placed in thumb or finger dislocating positions that are always assuredly the ones that you might use most often. Buttons scattered randomly where micro-spaces can be found by engineers rather than placed sensibly in locations found by designers using ergonomic principles.

Above all once some good egonomic layouts have been determined then throw it all away for some other witches breakfast whenever a new model eventuates.

I'm very much with you on this - daily pleasure of the photographic tool, working with my camera NOT against it, etc. are my major tenets in assessing a new gear. I was amazed and saddened recently here when a poster questioning ergonomics of his A7 was almost immediately hen-pecked into "you'll get used to it" position by a gang demanding and instant adherence to the A7s are worlds 8th wonder.

Hopefully the XT-1 will prove itself to be of different ilk - already plethora of external controls - starting with aperture rings on lenses has warmed my heart towards it. But of course only a real hands-on experience afield will answer this for sure

jpr2

socode Regular Member • Posts: 356
Re: Another witches breakfast?

Tom Caldwell wrote:

I am into ergonomic controls and intuitive to use and the Sony A7 type is only a pass mark at best in my book. No doubt that those who just use cameras and work around the deficiencies so a to hardly notice them find the A7 type just fine. Is the XT-1 better in the user experience than the A7 type?

The XT1's marked ISO dial, shutter dial, AF mode, and drive dials look great, the only reason I can see that endless encoders became common on AF SLRs was cost. The shutter button and the other custom buttons still look awkwardly placed though.

parallaxproblem Veteran Member • Posts: 5,335
Re: Greg: lot of sense in your reasoning - and the Fuji lens lineup plans...

Tom Caldwell wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

Nex 6 AF is on par with Fuji XE1 after firmware upgrades. Not sure about XE2- that is probably faster and snappier. But still not good for moving objects. XT1 holds a lo of promise here and seems to be the first APS mirrorless to be able to provide tracking AF that works - to be seen for sure once its out there.

I have an XE1, had a Fuji X100s but now my prime camera is an A7r. I still have the XE1. I really haven't used it since I got the A7r. That tells a story.

There are long threads about how Fuji APS is as good as full frame and perhaps there is some truth to that but full frame is hard to beat. Mainly from a field of view aspect. Full frame simply gives a wider field of view. That is hard to give up once you are used to it. DOF comes into it as well and I saw an excellent comparison of 5D111 and XE2 with various lenses on the Fuji forum. Blurred backgrounds seemed much easier to get on the 5D3.

Fuji has a powerful lens lineup which is just getting stronger.

But Sony has these amazing Zeiss FE lenses which are proving to be the best around.

I for one am completely happy with my A7r. The only thing that would have me upgrade from it would be a A8r with 54mp full frame, excellent low light high ISO, fast tracking AF, better EVF.

But that's probably next year!

If Nex 7 replacement could get IBIS it would be an amazing move by Sony.

Fuji's 16mp sensor ceiling seems to be more about maturing the camera body whilst working behind the scenes to perfect its organic sensor which could really make it the hot camera to have. That is likely in an XPro 2 later this year/early next year.

Would I replace my A7r with XT1? Hell no. I expect much the same IQ as my XE1 but better camera body performance all round.

Am I planning to get an XT1 to complement my A7r?

Well yes of course! They are the best of both brands.

Greg.

...are bit on a shortish side too - not a single prime beyond a normal FLs range:

Fujinon XF roadmap till the 2015

And yet I rather doubt that the A7r mk-II will achieve AF'ing speed we can observe in the 5d3 or 1Dx, or even a speed of the 5d2 (which is rather sedate at best) seems beyond reach of S's MILCs

jpr2

Long high quality prime lenses must cost a lot to develop and build and would be made in relatively small numbers for a quite specialist market. Obviously this makes them expensive and exclusive. The older established makers have built up their system lenses over a long period of time and include examples or rarer, more expensive types. I cannot see any commercial merit for a company with a brand new mount system in concentrating on other than the more popular lens types for some time. Therefore Fuji might be short on the "rare" types of lenses for a good while to come.

By the same token the popular lens types are "more popular" for many by definition so why should many care?

Because one day one might need a long lens...  and then, if there isn't one possible, one is in a bit of an impass!

Happened to me a while back (totally unexpected), and now I'm having lots of fun with long lenses

The LA-EAx adaptors are no substitute for an A-mount camera, but they do give AF and Aperture connectivity to A-mount lenses in such 'extremis'.  It is a weakness of the Fuji system that there is no equivalent access to a more complete lens system

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