re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

Started Jan 31, 2014 | Discussions
EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Also...

captura wrote:

I am guessing that the project to further develop faster AF for upper-end Sony MILC cameras was nor developed sufficiently in time for the A7 projects (which were very rushed onto the market.) Maybe fast AF will arrive incuded with the NEX-7 replacement.

Odds are good, they seem unconcerned with cannibalizing their own SLR sales - compare to the EOS-M. It makes sense that the A7s exist simply to test the market and establish  MILC FF without blowing the R&D budget or rousing the sleeping giants (Canon, Nikon) into action.

... gets them started on building a system. With couple if entry level FF cameras in place, Sony can build lens lineup, while prioritizing A-mount for performance. And eventually a9.

Even on A-mount we may be looking at a revised lens lineup. So, SLT may not be going anywhere, ratger mirrorless may be an added feature with A-mount lenses revised to support both.

And E-mount gets only the mirrorless treatment.

 EinsteinsGhost's gear list:EinsteinsGhost's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony SLT-A55 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sigma 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 DC OS HSM Sony 135mm F2.8 (T4.5) STF +12 more
captura Forum Pro • Posts: 26,994
Re: re: yep, I've noticed that too - the MODs say that the best...

jpr2 wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

...as the part-I run into a wall of 150 posts per thread limit, due in not small degree to a myriad of one-liner posts by few users well known for such a tactic - who always try to derail threads they don't agree with, here is the part-II.

Yes, there are very clear attempts to derail and fill up threads which are considered 'dangerous' by a small number of people posting here

Compare with this following thread which is basically a 'love-in' for the faux-DSLR which *may* be the new Sony design standard and which a number of us dislike:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52922223

There was not a single negative or disruptive posting... not one. These guys were left in peace to discuss what they liked

Compare and contrast with the behaviour of many of the same individuals in these other threads against something they disagreed with and wanted to 'go away':

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52891098

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52906322

Draw your own conclusions concerning the motivations behind such behaviour...
DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

...way to deal with the apparent collusion of mass disruptors is either just to ignore them = left to themselves they will either got bored or stew in their own company, or... to file a formal complaint (which I'd hate to waste my time on, so the I-st option is simpler),

jpr2

It actually does work. The Mods just watch them for a while, then give them a warning. That's when they start to back off.

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-7 Canon EOS Rebel SL1 Sony a7 Olympus OM-D E-M10 Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM +3 more
EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: re: yep, I've noticed that too - the MODs say that the best...
3

parallaxproblem wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

...as the part-I run into a wall of 150 posts per thread limit, due in not small degree to a myriad of one-liner posts by few users well known for such a tactic - who always try to derail threads they don't agree with, here is the part-II.

Yes, there are very clear attempts to derail and fill up threads which are considered 'dangerous' by a small number of people posting here

Compare with this following thread which is basically a 'love-in' for the faux-DSLR which *may* be the new Sony design standard and which a number of us dislike:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52922223

There was not a single negative or disruptive posting... not one. These guys were left in peace to discuss what they liked

Compare and contrast with the behaviour of many of the same individuals in these other threads against something they disagreed with and wanted to 'go away':

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52891098

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52906322

Draw your own conclusions concerning the motivations behind such behaviour...
DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies

...way to deal with the apparent collusion of mass disruptors is either just to ignore them = left to themselves they will either got bored or stew in their own company, or... to file a formal complaint (which I'd hate to waste my time on, so the I-st option is simpler),

jpr2

Which is to say that those who don't agree with you. If ignoring any distractive behavior were the point, you should not have wasted space by responding to one, but it did have more than a line so may be it was useful?

It would be more meaningful if you can engage is logical responses rather than complaining about certain posters who dismiss your ideas which usually revolves around 3-4 things (typically name, where the EVF is located and AF speed).

So let us avoid being a hypocrite and engage in discussions rather than bickering.

 EinsteinsGhost's gear list:EinsteinsGhost's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony SLT-A55 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sigma 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 DC OS HSM Sony 135mm F2.8 (T4.5) STF +12 more
captura Forum Pro • Posts: 26,994
Re: Gary: Nik's N-1, S's N6 vs. F's XT-1 for action shooting/tracking

jpr2 wrote:

GaryW wrote:

From many reviewers and posts, the Nikon 1 series did manage to have fast hybrid PDAF. If that was the most important feature, shouldn't it have done better? Perhaps the Fuji can bridge the gap between the two, but I'm not convinced that my Nex-6 AF is so bad....

...the Nikon's N1/N2 series indeed show pretty good AF'ing esp. in the tracking context, however, their tiny sensors put that class of 1" cameras firmly outside of my interest. There already are some samples of action type shootouts... with the XT-1. Not very stringent or extremely ambitious in my book, but in the past I took part in many mixed gear gatherings (mostly BIFs, some falconry shows, acrobatics, etc. the usual kind of events where one can expect a good mix of photogs in some informal settings = conductive to info exchanges), usually inclusive of some Nex-6 or Nex-5R shooters, and with no exception they were able to capture at best few keepers, whereas all others captured dozens if not hundreds of keepers .

So... pretty lenient settings - any DSLR will cope with this with no problems, yet it seemed beyond hope for any APS-C sensored MILC before the XT-1:

Fujifilm X-T1, XF56mmF1.2 R (pre-production), SOOC JPEG

jpr2

You don't own a Nikon 1 so you can't know. Sony themselves use 1" sensors in several cameras which are competitive to their APS-C cameras in certain circumstances. But the N1 have continuous, fast sharp AF down to a science and the Aptina 1" sensor with Nikon dual-core processor are capable of astonishing results.

The lack of success of the N1 as a market leader is due to style/ perception on the part of the public...therefore a marketing-design failure + lackof committment, on the part of Nikon.

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-7 Canon EOS Rebel SL1 Sony a7 Olympus OM-D E-M10 Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM +3 more
captura Forum Pro • Posts: 26,994
Re: re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

socode wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

I've already told you that you aren't in the list of 'perpetrators' of this kind of thing (just the fact that I can read and reply to your messages should indicate this)

Do you use 'lawyers tricks' and 'debating tactics' (circular arguments, strawmen and other logical fallacies etc) to lay traps or discredit the other person? No

Physician heal thyself. All anyone can judge is whether or not you seem interested at all in taking on board other views.

It's a debating tactic to accuse people of using debating tactics when you don't want to respond, and I've seen you do that.

And you are definitely on the list of perps. Can you please find another place to sow your seeds?

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-7 Canon EOS Rebel SL1 Sony a7 Olympus OM-D E-M10 Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM +3 more
captura Forum Pro • Posts: 26,994
Re: Gary: Nik's N-1, S's N6 vs. F's XT-1 for action shooting/tracking

"...the Nikon's N1/N2 series indeed show pretty good AF'ing esp. in the tracking context, however, their tiny sensors put that class of 1" cameras firmly outside of my interest.

Yeah, there's a clear tradeoff -- smaller sensor, but better AF tracking. The prices were still kind of high originally, as I recall."

I bought a new Nikon 1 S1 last week for my grandson last week, being cleared out at a Target, for $149.99 with kit lens. That doesn't seem high, to me.

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-7 Canon EOS Rebel SL1 Sony a7 Olympus OM-D E-M10 Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM +3 more
captura Forum Pro • Posts: 26,994
Re: re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

quezra wrote:

socode wrote:

parallaxproblem wrote:

I've already told you that you aren't in the list of 'perpetrators' of this kind of thing (just the fact that I can read and reply to your messages should indicate this)

Do you use 'lawyers tricks' and 'debating tactics' (circular arguments, strawmen and other logical fallacies etc) to lay traps or discredit the other person? No

Physician heal thyself. All anyone can judge is whether or not you seem interested at all in taking on board other views.

It's a debating tactic to accuse people of using debating tactics when you don't want to respond, and I've seen you do that.

This very thread kicks off with personal attacks in the OP. These hypocrites can accuse people of being shills in one post and in the next accuse those 'shills' of using 'debating tactics' etc. Are you really surprised it turns out thus?

How many personal attacks have I undergone from just this one perp just in the last 2 days? Sure, I'll put him on my Ignore list and report him, and they keep on sending more and more perps like this. They simply derail the discussion process, which must be their purpose.

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-7 Canon EOS Rebel SL1 Sony a7 Olympus OM-D E-M10 Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM +3 more
DT200 Contributing Member • Posts: 835
That is embarrassing for Sony

First, the focusing works on that camera.

While Sony's latest offer only 2 frames per second while focusing, this camera does 8. Not only that but the focusing WORKS on something moving!

Even worse there are examples with the XF56mmF1.2 R lens wide open. The longest APS prime is an average 50mm F/1.8 that can't get anywhere near the shallow DoF as the Fuji, and that lens takes FOREVER to acquire focus. The longest NEX lens is the average F/6.3 55-210 and Fuji has the 55-200mm F3.5-4.8 R LM OIS which is better in every way, and now has a camera that will make it great for fast action too.

Mirrorless cameras are considered 2nd tier when it comes to focusing and Sony has just moved in to 4th place in that 2nd tier. Make that 5th place, I forgot Nikon.

When does the Fuji go on sale again?

DT200 Contributing Member • Posts: 835
NEX CDAF is now 5th best in the mirrorless world.

There are now at least 4 mirrorless camera makes that have better focusing than Sony.  Fuji and Nikon are at the top.

miro3 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,048
Re: That is embarrassing for Sony

DT200 wrote:

First, the focusing works on that camera.

Which camera?

While Sony's latest offer only 2 frames per second while focusing, this camera does 8. Not only that but the focusing WORKS on something moving!

Even worse there are examples with the XF56mmF1.2 R lens wide open. The longest APS prime is an average 50mm F/1.8 that can't get anywhere near the shallow DoF as the Fuji, and that lens takes FOREVER to acquire focus.

Mirrorless cameras are considered 2nd tier when it comes to focusing and Sony has just moved in to 4th place in that 2nd tier. Make that 5th place, I forgot Nikon.

When does the Fuji go on sale again?

miro3 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,048
Re: re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

miro3 wrote:

Chris 1 wrote:

The pressure is not on Sony, the pressure is on Nikon and Canon. nikon and canon must respond to this threat from olympus, sony and fuji.

We don't care about Nikon and Canon in this forum.

But we care about Fuji.

Only because it has a very fast AF, fast shutter response,

the best EVF in a mirrorless, and is a direct competitor with the NEX-7 successor.

And so hopefully will put pressure on Sony to improve the A7r as well.

So, let us be consistent.

DT200 Contributing Member • Posts: 835
Re: That is embarrassing for Sony

miro3 wrote:

DT200 wrote:

First, the focusing works on that camera.

Which camera?

The new Fuji.  In the examples you can see how well it does with moving objects.  AND it has great lenses with wide apertures to isolate the subject!  Even if Sony made a camera that could focus, it doesn't have the long lenses.

While Sony's latest offer only 2 frames per second while focusing, this camera does 8. Not only that but the focusing WORKS on something moving!

Even worse there are examples with the XF56mmF1.2 R lens wide open. The longest APS prime is an average 50mm F/1.8 that can't get anywhere near the shallow DoF as the Fuji, and that lens takes FOREVER to acquire focus.

Mirrorless cameras are considered 2nd tier when it comes to focusing and Sony has just moved in to 4th place in that 2nd tier. Make that 5th place, I forgot Nikon.

When does the Fuji go on sale again?

miro3 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,048
Re: That is embarrassing for Sony

DT200 wrote:

miro3 wrote:

DT200 wrote:

First, the focusing works on that camera.

Which camera?

The new Fuji. In the examples you can see how well it does with moving objects. AND it has great lenses with wide apertures to isolate the subject!

yes

Even if Sony made a camera that could focus, it doesn't have the long lenses.

They should make them.

While Sony's latest offer only 2 frames per second while focusing, this camera does 8. Not only that but the focusing WORKS on something moving!

Even worse there are examples with the XF56mmF1.2 R lens wide open. The longest APS prime is an average 50mm F/1.8 that can't get anywhere near the shallow DoF as the Fuji, and that lens takes FOREVER to acquire focus.

Mirrorless cameras are considered 2nd tier when it comes to focusing and Sony has just moved in to 4th place in that 2nd tier. Make that 5th place, I forgot Nikon.

When does the Fuji go on sale again?

nzmacro
nzmacro Forum Pro • Posts: 15,939
I'm curious
1

DT200 wrote:

miro3 wrote:

DT200 wrote:

First, the focusing works on that camera.

Which camera?

The new Fuji. In the examples you can see how well it does with moving objects. AND it has great lenses with wide apertures to isolate the subject! Even if Sony made a camera that could focus, it doesn't have the long lenses.

What long lenses does Fuji have and at what fast aperture ?? For the life of me I can't find them.

All the best.

Danny.

-- hide signature --
 nzmacro's gear list:nzmacro's gear list
Olympus E-M1 Sony a7 Olympus OM-D E-M10 +6 more
EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

miro3 wrote:

Chris 1 wrote:

The pressure is not on Sony, the pressure is on Nikon and Canon. nikon and canon must respond to this threat from olympus, sony and fuji.

We don't care about Nikon and Canon in this forum.

But we care about Fuji.

Only because it has a very fast AF, fast shutter response,

the best EVF in a mirrorless, and is a direct competitor with the NEX-7 successor.

And so hopefully will put pressure on Sony to improve the A7r as well.

So, let us be consistent.

Remember, a7/7r are not 1", m43 or even APSc sensor cameras.

I gave points to Fuji on the EVF, probably the most significant piece in the package. The AF and shutter lag performance remains a question mark. Improvement? Sure. But remember, the numbers being quoted are better than those for likes of Canon 1Dx. That is yet to be proven.

And no, the 8 fps shot of relatively slow movement only hints at good tracking and AF speed, not of the incredible numbers being marketed. Some of the fastest shutter response cameras:
Canon 5D III: 0.061 (measured)
Sony a77: 0.053 (measured)
Nikon D4: 0.043 (measured)
Canon 1Dx: 0.039 (measured)
Sony NEX-7: 0.022 (measured)

Fuji's claim with X-T1: 0.005s (hint: 8x faster than D4/1Dx)? Likewise, where does 0.008s AF lag come from? That would be mind boggingly faster than any camera out there.

With that kind of claimed performance, either something is amiss/misquoted or The Fuji would be outperforming pro DSLRs. I find the former to be more credible.

 EinsteinsGhost's gear list:EinsteinsGhost's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony SLT-A55 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sigma 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 DC OS HSM Sony 135mm F2.8 (T4.5) STF +12 more
zackiedawg
zackiedawg Forum Pro • Posts: 31,149
Who cares if it's 10th best...as long as it works
3

You could rank my NEX-5N as 10th, 15th, even 40th best at focusing for moving subjects...doesn't matter a whiff to me as long as I can focus on the moving subjects I want to focus on with it.

And I can.  No problem for BIF.

Since Fuji also doesn't have any focal length over 200mm, I see no advantage there either.

The Fuji looks like a very nice camera.  So do the NEX/E-mount line.  So do several M4:3 models.  Great to live in a world with choices, and to have so many good choices out there to pick from.

-- hide signature --

Justin
galleries: www.pbase.com/zackiedawg

 zackiedawg's gear list:zackiedawg's gear list
Sony a6300 Sony E 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 OSS Sony E 16mm F2.8 Pancake Sony DT 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 Voigtlander 35mm F1.4 Nokton +22 more
OP jpr2 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,554
Danny: none, the 55-200/3.5-4.8 is their longest...

nzmacro wrote:

What long lenses does Fuji have and at what fast aperture ?? For the life of me I can't find them.

Danny.

...a consumer class zoom, granted a top quality lens (seems to me better build and IQ than SEL 55-210), but consumer grade nonetheless. But this is of much less consequence for me than the lack of smart EF-mount to XF-mount adapters = nobody offers anything even close to Conurus/MB ones enabling to mount Canon EF/EF-S lenses on the Fuji XF-body

jpr2

120 to 35 Senior Member • Posts: 1,279
a lot of pressure on Sony now ... and Sony responds

There is always a lot of pressure on Sony to come up with novel or improved photographic products as they are not one of the top two market leaders.

But in the last several months, Sony has been working very hard and responding to the pressure. Quite a few quality primes and zooms have been released. And the A7, A7r and RX-10 define new classes of camera.

I was impressed when A7 featured a distance scale for manual focus for the first time on a Sony E-mount camera. This was something I had written about a few times in this forum and criticized Sony for its lack of attention to photographers' needs.

With Zeiss lenses defining the IQ standards for FF and APS-C, and bodies that are just getting better, Sony just needs to maintain some consistency and improve the usability of the cameras while filling the gaps in the lens lineup.

When I lifted a Nikon D4 the other day, I compared the unpleasant experience to the time when I first picked up a Nikon F3 and enjoyed using it. I now enjoy using my NEX-5r the same way as the F3 and the later Contax film cameras that I still use.

Astrophotographer 10 Forum Pro • Posts: 12,831
Re: Danny: none, the 55-200/3.5-4.8 is their longest...

Nex 6 AF is on par with Fuji XE1 after firmware upgrades. Not sure about XE2- that is probably faster and snappier. But still not good for moving objects. XT1 holds a lo of promise here and seems to be the first APS mirrorless to be able to provide tracking AF that works - to be seen for sure once its out there.

I have an XE1, had a Fuji X100s but now my prime camera is an A7r. I still have the XE1. I really haven't used it since I got the A7r. That tells a story.

There are long threads about how Fuji APS is as good as full frame and perhaps there is some truth to that but full frame is hard to beat. Mainly from a field of view aspect. Full frame simply gives a wider field of view. That is hard to give up once you are used to it. DOF comes into it as well and I saw an excellent comparison of 5D111 and XE2 with various lenses on the Fuji forum. Blurred backgrounds seemed much easier to get on the 5D3.

Fuji has a powerful lens lineup which is just getting stronger.

But Sony has these amazing Zeiss FE lenses which are proving to be the best around.

I for one am completely happy with my A7r. The only thing that would have me upgrade from it would be a A8r with 54mp full frame, excellent low light high ISO, fast tracking AF, better EVF.

But that's probably next year!

If Nex 7 replacement could get IBIS it would be an amazing move by Sony.

Fuji's 16mp sensor ceiling seems to be more about maturing the camera body whilst working behind the scenes to perfect its organic sensor which could really make it the hot camera to have. That is likely in an XPro 2 later this year/early next year.

Would I replace my A7r with XT1? Hell no. I expect much the same IQ as my XE1 but better camera body performance all round.

Am I planning to get an XT1 to complement my A7r?

Well yes of course!  They are the best of both brands.

Greg.

 Astrophotographer 10's gear list:Astrophotographer 10's gear list
Sony a7R II Sony a7R III Sony FE 55mm F1.8 Zeiss Batis 85mm F1.8 Zeiss Loxia 21mm F2.8 +1 more
OP jpr2 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,554
Greg: lot of sense in your reasoning - and the Fuji lens lineup plans...

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

Nex 6 AF is on par with Fuji XE1 after firmware upgrades. Not sure about XE2- that is probably faster and snappier. But still not good for moving objects. XT1 holds a lo of promise here and seems to be the first APS mirrorless to be able to provide tracking AF that works - to be seen for sure once its out there.

I have an XE1, had a Fuji X100s but now my prime camera is an A7r. I still have the XE1. I really haven't used it since I got the A7r. That tells a story.

There are long threads about how Fuji APS is as good as full frame and perhaps there is some truth to that but full frame is hard to beat. Mainly from a field of view aspect. Full frame simply gives a wider field of view. That is hard to give up once you are used to it. DOF comes into it as well and I saw an excellent comparison of 5D111 and XE2 with various lenses on the Fuji forum. Blurred backgrounds seemed much easier to get on the 5D3.

Fuji has a powerful lens lineup which is just getting stronger.

But Sony has these amazing Zeiss FE lenses which are proving to be the best around.

I for one am completely happy with my A7r. The only thing that would have me upgrade from it would be a A8r with 54mp full frame, excellent low light high ISO, fast tracking AF, better EVF.

But that's probably next year!

If Nex 7 replacement could get IBIS it would be an amazing move by Sony.

Fuji's 16mp sensor ceiling seems to be more about maturing the camera body whilst working behind the scenes to perfect its organic sensor which could really make it the hot camera to have. That is likely in an XPro 2 later this year/early next year.

Would I replace my A7r with XT1? Hell no. I expect much the same IQ as my XE1 but better camera body performance all round.

Am I planning to get an XT1 to complement my A7r?

Well yes of course! They are the best of both brands.

Greg.

...are bit on a shortish side too - not a single prime beyond a normal FLs range:

Fujinon XF roadmap till the 2015

And yet I rather doubt that the A7r mk-II will achieve AF'ing speed we can observe in the 5d3 or 1Dx, or even a speed of the 5d2 (which is rather sedate at best) seems beyond reach of S's MILCs

jpr2

Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads