re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

Started Jan 31, 2014 | Discussions
sean lancaster
sean lancaster Veteran Member • Posts: 7,365
Re: Danny: yes, some pretty revolutionary design tricks
2

captura wrote:

I am hoping that fast AF will finally arrive with the NEX-7 replacement camera. But please make it the small brick shape!

The successor to the NEX 7 is coming out shortly after the release of the A7/R. The A7/R is a feature camera for Sony as the first of its kind, and they didn't show much on AF over previous Sony mirrorless cameras. I've not seen a significant improvement in mirrorless AF technology from Sony since my 2011 NEX 5N (particularly as an available light shooter). I think there's little doubt the successor to the NEX 7/6 will not show any improvement whatsoever in this regard or Sony would have surely added it to the A7/R.

My comparison cameras: NEX 5N, RX1, Nikon D600, Canon 6D, A7R. The Nikon and Canon cameras are too bulky for me, but I kept the 6D only because the improvement in AF is that much better than the NEX 5N, RX1, and A7R, particularly in lower light. So even if the A7 or NEX 6 show improvement, it's so incremental that it doesn't even come close to comparing to my 6D in available light, for example. And again, I hate the bulk and I am just begging for Sony to improve AF speed so I can switch back full time.

-- hide signature --
 sean lancaster's gear list:sean lancaster's gear list
Sony a7R II Voigtlander 35mm F1.2 Nokton Sony FE 55mm F1.8 Sony FE 28mm F2 Rokinon 135mm F2.0 +4 more
RUwithME? Regular Member • Posts: 460
Re: re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

I wish Sony brought back the laser pattern focus. For those of us who had V-1 it is hard to understand why this feature disappeared.

I still use V-1 for work and it is fast focusing (accurately) in almost complete dark situation, like in tunnel.

 RUwithME?'s gear list:RUwithME?'s gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-V1 Sony Alpha NEX-3 Sony a6000 Sony E 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 OSS Sony E 55-210mm F4.5-6.3 OSS +5 more
parallaxproblem Veteran Member • Posts: 5,335
Re: re: pls. note that was 15 consecutive frames at 8 FPS = almost exactly 2 secs.

jpr2 wrote:

yes, 1/400 is about 3-4 times too slow for a BIF to be a success. As Danny wrote in his generous tips three factors are crucial for a BIF attempt to yield a keeper: [a] good light and in good position too (behind or at least sideways to a shooter and target), [b] short enough SS, I'd try to use at least 1/1250-1/1600 sec; [c] long enough FL in a bright prime (or zoom, but not many are of sufficiently fast aperture, and quick enough AF hardware+firmware combo), f/4-f/5.6 are usually a good compromise in 300-400 mm range (with 300mm being a bit on a short end);

if there is a focus priority on N6 I'd personally avoid it as nothing is more frustrating than a frozen shutter button due to a wait for focus confirm. If there is a maximum ISO on Auto and in Manual mode, then setting the lens wide open and SS not less than 1/1250 might be a good starting point. AFIK the N6's 16Mpx sensor can go to 3200 without getting excessively noisy in a good outdoor light (golden hours at dawn or dusk are usually the best, esp. as wildlife gets quite active and already is either still present or gathers in their preferred sleeping quarters),

jpr2

Thank you for sharing these tips - very useful!

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies
* newly updated ignore list: hostile responses are probably not visible to me

 parallaxproblem's gear list:parallaxproblem's gear list
Sony Alpha DSLR-A900 NEX5R Sony a77 II
nevercat Veteran Member • Posts: 3,193
Re: re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

RUwithME? wrote:

I wish Sony brought back the laser pattern focus. For those of us who had V-1 it is hard to understand why this feature disappeared.

I still use V-1 for work and it is fast focusing (accurately) in almost complete dark situation, like in tunnel.

I had it on the F707 too, it is indeed strange that it is dropped. I don't know how well it would work on a mirrorless, but it can't be worst then the focus assist light in the Nex cameras...

nevercat Veteran Member • Posts: 3,193
Re: re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

parallaxproblem wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

...as the part-I run into a wall of 150 posts per thread limit, due in not small degree to a myriad of one-liner posts by few users well known for such a tactic - who always try to derail threads they don't agree with, here is the part-II.

Yes, there are very clear attempts to derail and fill up threads which are considered 'dangerous' by a small number of people posting here

Compare with this following thread which is basically a 'love-in' for the faux-DSLR which *may* be the new Sony design standard and which a number of us dislike:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52922223

There was not a single negative or disruptive posting... not one. These guys were left in peace to discuss what they liked

Compare and contrast with the behaviour of many of the same individuals in these other threads against something they disagreed with and wanted to 'go away':

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52891098

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52906322

Draw your own conclusions concerning the motivations behind such behaviour...

Well when I look at the first thread I see that you are not participating in it.

When I look at the other two I see you do partisipate in them, makes you wonder about the motivation indeed....

And for the record, it take to to start a fight...

OP jpr2 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,554
re: started to look at... WHAT are the longer FL options in XF-mount
1

and this got my attention almost straight away:

XF 55-200/3.5-4.8 R LM OIS (quite a mouthful for a name )

15mm wider than one of the best zooms in the similar range - the EF 70-200/4L IS, and BLACK = yet another advantage. Moreover, it is amazingly light for the FLs span and aperture.

However, on the cons side it seems that the pros were gained by quite a bit of compromise in the optical IQ design = this is yet another of the 'compulsory' FW corrections (so, the big question is whether the corrections are being hard-cooked into camera RAWs??). More info can be gleaned from the local review. Also AF is said to be pretty slow.

jpr2

parallaxproblem Veteran Member • Posts: 5,335
Re: re: started to look at... WHAT are the longer FL options in XF-mount

jpr2 wrote:

However, on the cons side it seems that the pros were gained by quite a bit of compromise in the optical IQ design = this is yet another of the 'compulsory' FW corrections (so, the big question is whether the corrections are being hard-cooked into camera RAWs??). More info can be gleaned from the local review. Also AF is said to be pretty slow.

jpr2

Intersting lens, shame it isn't a bit longer

I think FW correction of optics is going to become the de-facto standard in the future...  if only because it allows 'forced upgrade' of older bodies when their firmwares no longer get updated with the corrections for the latest lenses!

-- hide signature --

DUMP the HUMP! Campaign for *REAL* NEX replacement bodies
* newly updated ignore list: hostile responses are probably not visible to me

 parallaxproblem's gear list:parallaxproblem's gear list
Sony Alpha DSLR-A900 NEX5R Sony a77 II
Chris 1 Regular Member • Posts: 164
Re: re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

The pressure is not on Sony, the pressure is on Nikon and Canon. nikon and canon must respond to this threat from olympus, sony and fuji.

 Chris 1's gear list:Chris 1's gear list
Nikon 1 J1 Sony a6000 Sigma 30mm F2.8 EX DN Sigma 19mm F2.8 EX DN Nikon 1 Nikkor 18.5mm f/1.8 +1 more
EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II
1

stevo23 wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

...as the part-I run into a wall of 150 posts per thread limit, due in not small degree to a myriad of one-liner posts by few users well known for such a tactic - who always try to derail threads they don't agree with, here is the part-II.

in particular just take a peek on very many examples here,including quite well documented series of moderately fast action, where XT-1 seems to coped pretty well. Also the SOOC images are quite amazing - already with XP-1 I was smitten by such excellent IQ from a low Mpx sensor, but these look even better

I seriously don't think there was a concerted effort to sink your original thread,

It was not his.

It was mine!

I really hope it was no "tactic". Folks are allowed to disagree and they don't have to say much. I'm not sure I see why one has to be accused of such.

+1

Clearly you are smitten with the X-T1 and if you are after what it does, this is good news. But the point is well made by many - this isn't any more pressure on Sony than before.

I disagree here.

They'd better improve the AF speed, as well as improve the response time.

These are both not very competitive on the A7r.

Bases on Fuji's claims:
Shutter Lag is down to 0.005s: that should make it faster than the fastest camera out there (Canon 1Dx, 0.006s which I assume is in mirror up position). But, does it? Sony E-mount APSc cameras since NEX-5N been some of the fastest at 0.02s.

AF response (I assume includes shutter lag) is claimed to be 0.008s. That will be incredibly fast beating any camera. Sony a77 has been measured to be one of the fastest camera with APSc or FF sensor at 0.177s in bright light. What are the chances that X-T1 beats them all? In that case, "good with moderate action" won't cut it.

These two are simply too vague of statements to make, and worse to believe in. One thing that Fuji should get credit for is the EVF, based on the specs and features. That is about it.

Then we have a base ISO of 200 if you shoot RAW. Really? It was one of the things I disliked about NEX-3.

Shutter speed is maxed out at 1/4000s. This was also true with NEX-7 (but a77 got 1/8000s) but Sony went ahead with 1/8000s even on FF sensor in a camera about the same size and price class with a7.

Combine the two together (ISO 200 and 1/4000s) and suddenly faster lenses for DOF start to make less sense in good light.

While Fuji should be commended for including a compact flash, one would still need to buy another flash for bounce feature which I find more useful.

As far as Sony is concerned, the key is primarily with AF speed to match mirrored systems.

 EinsteinsGhost's gear list:EinsteinsGhost's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony SLT-A55 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sigma 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 DC OS HSM Sony 135mm F2.8 (T4.5) STF +12 more
miro3 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,048
Re: re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

Chris 1 wrote:

The pressure is not on Sony, the pressure is on Nikon and Canon. nikon and canon must respond to this threat from olympus, sony and fuji.

We don't care about Nikon and Canon in this forum.

gil Forum Pro • Posts: 16,735
NEX CDAF is not bad and even usable for...(more)
1

BIFs. Using the entry level/discontinued NEX F3 and even with teleconverter in front, could still do usable BIFs. CDAF is a bit PITA but doable with practice and persistent. I do free style 100% handholding BIF - camera/lens down until a BIF prospect comes in then aim, track, hold/track and shutter release. Although I am only getting about 10-20% usable BIFs from the NEX F3 (compared to about 90% from my A700/A77), the difficulty and the fun part is more than 100%.

I am sure the Fuji is a good and fun cam but I am already having fun with the lowly NEX F3. Nothing to be envious about.

cheers,

gil

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
gil - San Jose, CA
Cheap Lens, JPG and 100% Handholding Provocateur
Like happiness, photography is often better created than pursued.

 gil's gear list:gil's gear list
Sony Alpha DSLR-A700 Sony SLT-A77 Sony a6000 Sony a77 II
Section10
Section10 Senior Member • Posts: 1,538
Re: Danny: yes, some pretty revolutionary design tricks

sean lancaster wrote:

captura wrote:

I am hoping that fast AF will finally arrive with the NEX-7 replacement camera. But please make it the small brick shape!

The successor to the NEX 7 is coming out shortly after the release of the A7/R. The A7/R is a feature camera for Sony as the first of its kind, and they didn't show much on AF over previous Sony mirrorless cameras. I've not seen a significant improvement in mirrorless AF technology from Sony since my 2011 NEX 5N (particularly as an available light shooter). I think there's little doubt the successor to the NEX 7/6 will not show any improvement whatsoever in this regard or Sony would have surely added it to the A7/R.

My comparison cameras: NEX 5N, RX1, Nikon D600, Canon 6D, A7R. The Nikon and Canon cameras are too bulky for me, but I kept the 6D only because the improvement in AF is that much better than the NEX 5N, RX1, and A7R, particularly in lower light. So even if the A7 or NEX 6 show improvement, it's so incremental that it doesn't even come close to comparing to my 6D in available light, for example. And again, I hate the bulk and I am just begging for Sony to improve AF speed so I can switch back full time.

I have a dilemma, your post helps a little, but we still have to wait to see whats to come.
I have Rx1r for low light/night/compact size....Nex 5 for underwater case, rx100 for when u cant bring camera, sold NEX6 for its successor sold D7000 for ???

I have the Touit that I really want to use so am possibly holding out for 7n to be able to use it...but probably own't do both that and Canon 70d or 6d... Id even look into the A77 successor which is a little more down the road.

I'm looking for more AF speed like the Canon but if Sony can pull it together with the 7n I may stick with it....

Id really like the Canon grip..A7 shutter is a little cramped feeling, and Nikon just doesn't have that comfort feeling, I have to grip it entirely different...not like holding a pistol like the Canon feels.

I'm all over the place with options...

 Section10's gear list:Section10's gear list
Sony FE 55mm F1.8 Nikon D4 Sony a9 Zeiss Otus 1.4/55 Zeiss Batis 25mm F2 +3 more
socode Regular Member • Posts: 356
Re: re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

miro3 wrote:

Chris 1 wrote:

The pressure is not on Sony, the pressure is on Nikon and Canon. nikon and canon must respond to this threat from olympus, sony and fuji.

We don't care about Nikon and Canon in this forum.

I do, and they're MILC vendors too.

EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
My Benchmark
1

Amen!

My benchmark requires Sony to strive for mirror displacement. Until then, I would prefer to use my SLT camera, or SLT adapter on my NEX-6. Here is a two shot sequence with my little beast flying towards me (she is fast, and not an easy subject to get focus on... basically a black ball coming straight at you, especially in tree lined areas)

NEX-6, Minolta 200/2.8, LA-EA2

 EinsteinsGhost's gear list:EinsteinsGhost's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony SLT-A55 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sigma 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 DC OS HSM Sony 135mm F2.8 (T4.5) STF +12 more
EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: re: a lot of pressure on Sony now ... part-II

miro3 wrote:

Chris 1 wrote:

The pressure is not on Sony, the pressure is on Nikon and Canon. nikon and canon must respond to this threat from olympus, sony and fuji.

We don't care about Nikon and Canon in this forum.

But we care about Fuji. So, let us be consistent.

 EinsteinsGhost's gear list:EinsteinsGhost's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony SLT-A55 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sigma 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 DC OS HSM Sony 135mm F2.8 (T4.5) STF +12 more
EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
EFCS + 1/8000s

jpr2 wrote:

yup, the 1/8000 is on a top of my list - but somehow they found it tricky to deliver, esp. together with EFC synchronization. Lets hope it will be there one day.

A Sony has had both, 1/8000s and EFCS, for 2+ years now: a77. Sony likely kept 1/4000s on NEX-7 (while using the same sensor) due to size constraints on the significantly smaller chassis of the NEX.

It is possible that Sony will go for 1/8000s shutter on NEX-7 replacement (now that they have managed it even with a Full Frame sensor in a small body).

 EinsteinsGhost's gear list:EinsteinsGhost's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony SLT-A55 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sigma 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 DC OS HSM Sony 135mm F2.8 (T4.5) STF +12 more
quezra Veteran Member • Posts: 3,915
Re: EFCS + 1/8000s

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

yup, the 1/8000 is on a top of my list - but somehow they found it tricky to deliver, esp. together with EFC synchronization. Lets hope it will be there one day.

A Sony has had both, 1/8000s and EFCS, for 2+ years now: a77. Sony likely kept 1/4000s on NEX-7 (while using the same sensor) due to size constraints on the significantly smaller chassis of the NEX.

It is possible that Sony will go for 1/8000s shutter on NEX-7 replacement (now that they have managed it even with a Full Frame sensor in a small body).

1/8000 + EFCS is on the A7 too.

 quezra's gear list:quezra's gear list
Sony a7 Sony FE 55mm F1.8 Sony Vario-Tessar T* FE 16-35mm F4 ZA OSS Sony Alpha NEX-5N Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH3 +10 more
captura Forum Pro • Posts: 26,984
Re: Danny: yes, some pretty revolutionary design tricks

sean lancaster wrote:

captura wrote:

I am hoping that fast AF will finally arrive with the NEX-7 replacement camera. But please make it the small brick shape!

The successor to the NEX 7 is coming out shortly after the release of the A7/R. The A7/R is a feature camera for Sony as the first of its kind, and they didn't show much on AF over previous Sony mirrorless cameras. I've not seen a significant improvement in mirrorless AF technology from Sony since my 2011 NEX 5N (particularly as an available light shooter). I think there's little doubt the successor to the NEX 7/6 will not show any improvement whatsoever in this regard or Sony would have surely added it to the A7/R.

My comparison cameras: NEX 5N, RX1, Nikon D600, Canon 6D, A7R. The Nikon and Canon cameras are too bulky for me, but I kept the 6D only because the improvement in AF is that much better than the NEX 5N, RX1, and A7R, particularly in lower light. So even if the A7 or NEX 6 show improvement, it's so incremental that it doesn't even come close to comparing to my 6D in available light, for example. And again, I hate the bulk and I am just begging for Sony to improve AF speed so I can switch back full time.

I am guessing that the project to further develop faster AF for upper-end Sony MILC cameras was nor developed sufficiently in time for the A7 projects (which were very rushed onto the market.) Maybe fast AF will arrive incuded with the NEX-7 replacement.

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-7 Canon EOS Rebel SL1 Sony a7 Olympus OM-D E-M10 Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM +3 more
EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: EFCS + 1/8000s

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

yup, the 1/8000 is on a top of my list - but somehow they found it tricky to deliver, esp. together with EFC synchronization. Lets hope it will be there one day.

A Sony has had both, 1/8000s and EFCS, for 2+ years now: a77. Sony likely kept 1/4000s on NEX-7 (while using the same sensor) due to size constraints on the significantly smaller chassis of the NEX.

It is possible that Sony will go for 1/8000s shutter on NEX-7 replacement (now that they have managed it even with a Full Frame sensor in a small body).

1/8000 + EFCS is on the A7 too.

I stand corrected for having missed that. I was thinking a7r.

 EinsteinsGhost's gear list:EinsteinsGhost's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony SLT-A55 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sigma 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 DC OS HSM Sony 135mm F2.8 (T4.5) STF +12 more
socode Regular Member • Posts: 356
Re: Danny: yes, some pretty revolutionary design tricks

captura wrote:

I am guessing that the project to further develop faster AF for upper-end Sony MILC cameras was nor developed sufficiently in time for the A7 projects (which were very rushed onto the market.) Maybe fast AF will arrive incuded with the NEX-7 replacement.

Odds are good, they seem unconcerned with cannibalizing their own SLR sales - compare to the EOS-M. It makes sense that the A7s exist simply to test the market and establish  MILC FF without blowing the R&D budget or rousing the sleeping giants (Canon, Nikon) into action.

Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads