Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?

Started Jan 28, 2014 | Discussions
bruxi
bruxi Regular Member • Posts: 318
Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
1

DSLR = Better lenses, better image quality, better flashes, better video.

What is left?

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ttbek Senior Member • Posts: 4,827
Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?

myphotographic wrote:

Only the first (high fps autofocus) is inheriently affected by the choice of mirror/no-mirror. The lack of quality super-telephotos isn really more of a consequence of the autofocus issue, and the fact people who'll buy expensive telephotos value high performance AF.

Thank you, one of the few people that's capable of talking sense on this topic.  Well, this and OVF vs. EVF preferences.  The idea is that now that we have on sensor PDAF in a few mirrorless cameras, we may be able to get that kind of AF within a few years if it is a big priority for a major company.  If that gap is closed, then I lean towards ditching DSLR going forwards.

Many people on here like to compare apples and oranges, cameras that were never meant to be in the same class, to high end DSLRs.  Compare say a NX300 and a Rebel and the gap isn't anything worth crowing about, if that even is in the Rebel's favor (which depends on what trade offs one prefers).

If I was Fuji, I'd bribe Tamron to make an x-mount version of the new 150-600.

Tilt-shift lens already work as well/better in a different system; the medium-format ones!

Oh no, we're losing you, lenses are not a quality of mirror vs. no mirror.  Canon could put out a 1D X replacement with no mirror, same EF mount, all the same lenses, still AF.  As you said at the start, it's only getting AF/Servo Tracking to the same performance that holds back mirrorless.

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Paul

Someone else brought up one other good point, being battery life.  It's a challenge for sure, but I think we can live with it.

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David_C Contributing Member • Posts: 931
Dual Card Slots, Flash Sync Speed > 1/180, Proper 24P Manual Video, More
1

1. Dual card slots for pros, wedding photogs. Stills to one card, video to the other, or as backup.

2. Proper pro flash, a Canon 600 wireless competitor

3. Flash sync speed has to get pass 1/180...at least 1/250, and if Fuji really wants to kick ass 1/500 or higher. I do a lot of flash photography, speedlites, and studio strobes.

4. Proper modern video, yes I want video in my still camera, 24P, 120 fps, 240 fps, 1080, 2.5K, high bit rates, head phone plug-in, mic plug-in, RAW out, etc, etc. Enough has been written about this that Fuji should be able to figure it out.

5. The super zoom on Fuji's site for 2015 has to be a Canon 200-400 f/4 IS 1.4 extender competitor, yes really, only for the x mount it will be 1/3 shorter and 1/2 the weight.

Not a complete list, but a start.

songeun7 Contributing Member • Posts: 574
Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
2

How can you prefer electronically generate EVF over natural OVF? I just don't understand.

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Ontario Gone
Ontario Gone Senior Member • Posts: 4,183
Re: Why are people so rabid...

Midwest wrote:

So which post is baloney? Your post here, or your post two weeks ago?

Actually you don't have the authority to bottleneck me into two options. I will choose door number three, which is i have changed my mind. Traditionally i don't care what others shoot, but after some thought i realize my happiness is maximized if mirrors are bulldozed into the darkest corner of photography. So good job trying to skew my personality, but your narrow mindedness missed what actually happened.

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Ontario Gone
Ontario Gone Senior Member • Posts: 4,183
Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?

Midwest wrote:

This question seems to be passed over repeatedly by these tired guys. Over and over, we hear it from so many people. Those who yell troll, those who yell religious zealot, those who are tired of all the elitism. But they KEEP COMING BACK. Why? When you say one thing and do another, i will believe what i see. These guys claim they are tired of it so they don't come off as trolls, it's to cover their own butt. In reality, they invade threads to argue. I don't show up in pro DSLR threads spouting about EVFs, i keep it to threads like this. Keep coming with the lies Graham, at least it's entertaining.

The main forum page has a list of the most active threads across all the forums at present. Do you expect that if I started a thread in a DSLR forum and titled it 'Mirrorless cameras, dead in two years?' that nobody who uses mirrorless would post to it? Of course they would and who would blame them?

I'd be careful about accusing others of lies.

You still didn't answer my question, all you did was say "other guys do it", as if that justifies it. The fact is you are sitting here arguing with me for stating my opinions in threads about mirrorless cameras. When is the last time i have posted something negative about mirrors in a DSLR forum?? The difference between you and me is you argue to bother people, we call it trolling. You seek out people who you know are interested in mirrorless cameras, to disagree with their views. If you show up to a thread about mirrorless technology and ive posted there, yea, you are not going to like what i post. That's my opinion. If you don't like it, you don't have to respond. I don't respond to the pro DSLR threads that claim mirrorless is junk. Use some self control, unless of course you just want to argue.

And no, i will not be careful about accusing others of lies, if i believe they are lying, i will say so. You know what im talking about in the above paragraph, you seek out these threads just to argue. You try to blame others, when you are free to move along.

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Ontario Gone Senior Member • Posts: 4,183
Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?

songeun7 wrote:

How can you prefer electronically generate EVF over natural OVF? I just don't understand.

If we are talking about pure visuals, i don't. But it's not just about the IQ of the display, it's about the utility of it. EVFs offer real time exposure, peaking, ect. To me this is simply more useful than what is prettier. If we look down the road as well, making OVFs larger is expensive. EVFs are already extremely high resolution, they can be made much larger and not have any issues with visual pixelation. Imagine an EVF with a magnif. ratio of .8 or .9? That would be awesome, and it will never happen with an OVF. They are not horrible, i like OVFs, but i like the advantages of EVFs far more.

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Josh152 Senior Member • Posts: 1,999
You may end up

Putting the mirrorless ILCs you love so much in that coffin you seem so intent on making since none of them are profitable or ever have been.

MoreorLess Veteran Member • Posts: 4,395
Exellent post..

Dennis wrote:

bigpigbig wrote:

But I really believe that the mirrorless camera will replace the DSLR (eventually).

So the one thing that never seems to get discussed in the whole DSLRs-are-going-the-way-of-the-dinosaur/no-they're-not discussions is whether the mirrorless implies reduced registration distance. And when is a DSLR not a DSLR ?

Nikon and Canon have each sold close to 100 million lenses. Some old, sure, but there are an awful lot of Nikon & Canon users out there. Sony has already gone (nearly) mirrorless with its SLR-mount system (the SLTs). PDAF-on-sensor would allow them to ditch the interim SLT technology and go all mirrorless. Nikon and Canon could easily follow, even if only for a couple of models in their lineup. They could easily offer a system that gives consumers a choice of a couple mirrorless bodies and SLR bodies. But even if they did go all mirrorless (even if the EVF was satisfactory to everyone, the AF was satisfactory to everyone, and battery life was no longer an issue for everyone) ... is that what you mean when you say mirrorless will replace the DSLR ?

I think it's a far more likely scenario than the DSLR being replaced by reduced registration distance systems ... unless Nikon and Canon both go the Sony/Olympus route and develop FF and APS-C mirrorless designed to work seamlessly with old lenses via adapters.

As I mentioned, there are tens of millions of lenses out there in use by people who have no desire to replace them. And SLR systems have dozens and dozens of lenses that manufacturers have no incentive to abandon and replace. Think about the investment Nikon and Canon have recently put into some of their high end glass, from super teles to the 58/1.4. Why would they want to stop making them to guide people to a new system, when it basically doubles the investment on their part ? Sure, they need to avoid losing market share to the upstarts, but that doesn't mean throwing away an old system and restarting from far behind.

Back to the cameras, aside from reliable, fast AF tracking and EVF quality, you have battery life and "night vision" issues (where the EVF clobbers your ability to see in the dark) ... issues to some. Then you have the need for bigger bodies with substantial hand grips, and vertical grips that support extra batteries and big flash units. All of which suggests to me that there's a sizable market out there for larger bodies, so that even if photographers see benefits in mirrorless technology, they'll be more than thrilled to own it in larger cameras that work with their existing Nikon & Canon lenses and accessories.

Then you have interesting options that could be available to DSLR manufacturers. We're talking theoreticals here ... the day that PDAF-on-sensor and EVFs are satisfactory to all photographers. So how about a DSLR that provides LV in mirror up mode and offers interchangeable VFs, like old film SLRs did ... one optical and one electronic. The electronic one might even be upgradeable with higher res models.

So in summary, I see little chance of existing SLR mount systems going away, and so long as those systems continue to exist, no reason for the DSLR itself to entirely go away, even if part or most of a manufacturers lineup goes mirrorless. Canon and Nikon might offer 1 or 2 DSLRs and a few mirrorless models. Those might be native SLR mount bodies or reduced registration bodies with adapters. There are really lots of options here and no reason for any technology (other than Sony's SLT !) to go away.

I think you really get to the core of the issue nicely.

Its only very recently that I think we've seen mirrorless camera's that really aim to replace higher end DSLR's. The viewfinderless camera that I'd imagine make up most of the business in the core far eastern markets are IMHO not really targeting the same market.

Personally my feeling is that ASPC maybe more likely to switch over to a smaller registration distance than FF for a number of reasons...

1. Fewer lenses would be given up - Canon and Nikon have decent lineups of ASPC lenses but really nothing close to FF, you could probably service most of the market with a dozen releases or less.

2.Balance less of an issue - With ASPC your dealing with smaller lenses with naturally balance with a smaller body. Add up a big grip, a big battery, a top plate LCD and lots of controls and a FF camera needs to be a decent size.

3.Light angles less of an issue - The larger the sensor becomes the more problematic a small registration distance becomes with digital sensors. Leica had serious issues with a much longer 27mm registration distance and we've seen the Sony FE lenses tend to need to be longer than DSLR equivlents, likely to correct this. If your getting a thinner body for a longer lens is it a worthwhile tradeoff?

OP bigpigbig Senior Member • Posts: 1,727
Re: You may end up

Josh152 wrote:

Putting the mirrorless ILCs you love so much in that coffin you seem so intent on making since none of them are profitable or ever have been.

First, why the hostility?

What makes you think I love mirrorless ILCs? So much?

I am not in love with a camera design. That would be weird.

For the 10,000th time, I shoot a D4, D800e, XE-1, Film from 35mm to 8x10, make photograms, print in the darkroom, print on an inkjet printer, print Cyanotypes in the sun, make solargraphy, etc. etc.

I am a photographer.

I am interested in the past and future of photography. The future will be different. I am pretty sure, flapping mirrors and secondary AF sensors (limited to the middle of the frame) will be replaced by mirrorless cameras with AF on the sensor all the way to the edge of the frame.

Many agree. Many disagree.

So, rethink your post, and try again.

No need to apologize. Just start again.

If what you were trying to say is that profitability is the limiting factor for the mirrorless camera. Just say that and try to explain yourself. Easy as pie.

There are many better reasons for DSLRs to remain viable that have been mentioned by others before you.

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RJPeter Regular Member • Posts: 361
Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?

Why does it matter ?

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OP bigpigbig Senior Member • Posts: 1,727
Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?

RJPeter wrote:

Why does it matter ?

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It depends. What is your interest in cameras?

If you don't care to think about the future, by all means, live for TODAY!!!

Now is all there is anyway.

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Alohaman Contributing Member • Posts: 576
Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
1

There will be room for DSLR in the future mirrorless world.  My main reason is body-lens balance.  My Canon T4i is well balanced with the Canon 135/2.0L and 70-200/4L IS.  I wouldn't put either lens on my NEX-7.  The combo would be too lens heavy and would defeat the reasons I like mirrorless: small size and weight.

So for walk-around and travel shooting I will use mirrorless.  For sports, nature, macro, I will still use DSLR.

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trueview Regular Member • Posts: 180
Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
1

I haven't read all the thread so my apologies if I'm saying something that has already been mentioned.

On weakness I see in bigpigbig's reasoning is that he looks at the mirrorless technology from a dynamic point view, and at dlsrs in a static perspective.

Technological advances might (or not) preserve the DSLRs advantages, or produce new ones. Such things as non moving mirrors with electrically generated opacity, or borrowing the hybrid viewfinder technology form the mirrorless cameras, etc.

In all honesty, with the multiplication of formats, losses incurred by mirrorless manufacturers, tumbling profits for the largest DSLR manufacturers, etc, if was paid today to write a report on the state of the photographic market in the next ten years, I would be seriously scratching my head !

And that is an issue for the average photographer, in terms of knowing what to buy and preserving one's investment. I like to shoot film alongside digital, so I carry a Contax G2 with my XP1. THis camera was bought used (thankfully) a few months before Contax folded all together ! The day something breaks in this camera, I end up with an expensive paperweight.

I happily bought into the fuji X system, but personally, I think that, due to the installed based, my investment in this system is a bit of a gamble. More so than the 5DIII and lenses I also have.

I believe that installed base is a defining factor in the survival of a system/standard/technology/brand. Cemeteries are full of creative newcomers who didn't succeed at gaining sufficient weight. (Of course, cemeteries are also full of behemoths who failed at reacting swiftly enough at the challenge of creative newcomers )

OP bigpigbig Senior Member • Posts: 1,727
Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
1

Alohaman wrote:

There will be room for DSLR in the future mirrorless world. My main reason is body-lens balance. My Canon T4i is well balanced with the Canon 135/2.0L and 70-200/4L IS. I wouldn't put either lens on my NEX-7. The combo would be too lens heavy and would defeat the reasons I like mirrorless: small size and weight.

So for walk-around and travel shooting I will use mirrorless. For sports, nature, macro, I will still use DSLR.

A mirrorless camera could be the EXACT size and weight of a DSLR. Just...well...without the mirror.

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justin_time Contributing Member • Posts: 780
Re: Dual Card Slots, Flash Sync Speed > 1/180, Proper 24P Manual Video, More

David_C wrote:

1. Dual card slots for pros, wedding photogs. Stills to one card, video to the other, or as backup.

2. Proper pro flash, a Canon 600 wireless competitor

3. Flash sync speed has to get pass 1/180...at least 1/250, and if Fuji really wants to kick ass 1/500 or higher. I do a lot of flash photography, speedlites, and studio strobes.

4. Proper modern video, yes I want video in my still camera, 24P, 120 fps, 240 fps, 1080, 2.5K, high bit rates, head phone plug-in, mic plug-in, RAW out, etc, etc. Enough has been written about this that Fuji should be able to figure it out.

5. The super zoom on Fuji's site for 2015 has to be a Canon 200-400 f/4 IS 1.4 extender competitor, yes really, only for the x mount it will be 1/3 shorter and 1/2 the weight.

Not a complete list, but a start.

Above list has got nothing to do with a mirror / no mirror discussion. They are just general camera features important to you.

I disagree a 200-400mm f4.0 zoom with 1.4 extender would be 1/2 the weight. At these focal lengths APS-C format does not change the front element lens size which will determine the weight. Personally a 100-400 f3.5-f5.6 is what I hope the super tele zoom is - I traded my Nikon 200-400 4.0 for 80-400G 4.5-5.6 largey due to weight / size.

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OP bigpigbig Senior Member • Posts: 1,727
Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?

Well written. Thank you.

trueview wrote:

I haven't read all the thread so my apologies if I'm saying something that has already been mentioned.

On weakness I see in bigpigbig's reasoning is that he looks at the mirrorless technology from a dynamic point view, and at dlsrs in a static perspective.

Fair enough. My (maybe flawed) rationale for this view, is that mirrorless cameras are improving leaps and bounds (they had a long way to go, true) and DSLRs have leveled out somewhat (D3s vs D4) in terms of IQ and features.

Technological advances might (or not) preserve the DSLRs advantages, or produce new ones. Such things as non moving mirrors with electrically generated opacity, or borrowing the hybrid viewfinder technology form the mirrorless cameras, etc.

Yes, please. That is what I was hoping for in the Df. OVF AND EVF.

In all honesty, with the multiplication of formats, losses incurred by mirrorless manufacturers, tumbling profits for the largest DSLR manufacturers, etc, if was paid today to write a report on the state of the photographic market in the next ten years, I would be seriously scratching my head !

And that is an issue for the average photographer, in terms of knowing what to buy and preserving one's investment. I like to shoot film alongside digital, so I carry a Contax G2 with my XP1. THis camera was bought used (thankfully) a few months before Contax folded all together ! The day something breaks in this camera, I end up with an expensive paperweight.

I happily bought into the fuji X system, but personally, I think that, due to the installed based, my investment in this system is a bit of a gamble. More so than the 5DIII and lenses I also have.

I have the same hesitation. But the Fuji lenses are just so good.

I believe that installed base is a defining factor in the survival of a system/standard/technology/brand. Cemeteries are full of creative newcomers who didn't succeed at gaining sufficient weight. (Of course, cemeteries are also full of behemoths who failed at reacting swiftly enough at the challenge of creative newcomers )

I think this might be the deciding factor for a while (maybe a long while). But turntable manufacturers probably thought the same thing when CDs came out. A little different, I know, but, time marches on and things change.

Of course, religion seems to have pretty good traction and staying power from the "installed base"

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Graham Hill Senior Member • Posts: 1,355
Re: You may end up
1

bigpigbig wrote:

Josh152 wrote:

Putting the mirrorless ILCs you love so much in that coffin you seem so intent on making since none of them are profitable or ever have been.

First, why the hostility?

You reap what you sow.

What makes you think I love mirrorless ILCs?

Your text.

So much?

I am not in love with a camera design. That would be weird.

Yes, very.

For the 10,000th time, I shoot a D4, D800e, XE-1, Film from 35mm to 8x10, make photograms, print in the darkroom, print on an inkjet printer, print Cyanotypes in the sun, make solargraphy, etc. etc.

I own 11 Fujifilm cameras yet am constantly called an anti Fujifilm troll.

I am a photographer.

I am interested in the past and future of photography. The future will be different. I am pretty sure, flapping mirrors and secondary AF sensors (limited to the middle of the frame) will be replaced by mirrorless cameras with AF on the sensor all the way to the edge of the frame.

Many agree. Many disagree.

Right, and some savagely attack those who don't tow the company line, who dont follow the religious orthodoxy of those who worship at the altar of mirrorless.

Graham Hill Senior Member • Posts: 1,355
Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
1

trueview wrote:

I haven't read all the thread so my apologies if I'm saying something that has already been mentioned.

On weakness I see in bigpigbig's reasoning is that he looks at the mirrorless technology from a dynamic point view, and at dlsrs in a static perspective.

Technological advances might (or not) preserve the DSLRs advantages, or produce new ones. Such things as non moving mirrors with electrically generated opacity, or borrowing the hybrid viewfinder technology form the mirrorless cameras, etc.

In all honesty, with the multiplication of formats, losses incurred by mirrorless manufacturers, tumbling profits for the largest DSLR manufacturers, etc, if was paid today to write a report on the state of the photographic market in the next ten years, I would be seriously scratching my head !

And that is an issue for the average photographer, in terms of knowing what to buy and preserving one's investment. I like to shoot film alongside digital, so I carry a Contax G2 with my XP1. THis camera was bought used (thankfully) a few months before Contax folded all together !

The day something breaks in this camera, I end up with an expensive paperweight.

Incorrect.   You can buy whatever you want to replace the broken object.  There is a thriving used market for Contax cameras.

I happily bought into the fuji X system, but personally, I think that, due to the installed based, my investment in this system is a bit of a gamble. More so than the 5DIII and lenses I also have.

I believe that installed base is a defining factor in the survival of a system/standard/technology/brand. Cemeteries are full of creative newcomers who didn't succeed at gaining sufficient weight. (Of course, cemeteries are also full of behemoths who failed at reacting swiftly enough at the challenge of creative newcomers )

Graham Hill Senior Member • Posts: 1,355
Re: Two more nails in the DSLR coffin...what is left?
1

PhotoNaturally wrote:

There is nothing like a looking through a nice bright viewfinder.

I agree completely.

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