So much for the EVF being insufficient for action.....

Started Jan 28, 2014 | Discussions
(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 1,324
I'm faulting you
5

Ontario Gone wrote:

canonagain123 wrote:

A difference between you and me is that I don't create a new thread every 1-2-3 days claiming this or that format which I don't happen to use is inferior and will be wiped out and anyone using it is a fool. You do this all the time.

Are you faulting me for having an opinion, or for sharing it?

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"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

for spouting your opinion over and over and over and over again like some religious nut trying to convert as many people as he can. I'm faulting you for not being able to have an opinion that isn't abrasive and stepping on other people's toes. I'm faulting you for not being able to have a nonexclusivistic, nonelitistic, nonostracizing preference.

Ontario Gone
OP Ontario Gone Senior Member • Posts: 4,183
Re: I'm faulting you

canonagain123 wrote:

Ontario Gone wrote:

Are you faulting me for having an opinion, or for sharing it?

for spouting your opinion over and over and over and over again like some religious nut trying to convert as many people as he can. I'm faulting you for not being able to have an opinion that isn't abrasive and stepping on other people's toes. I'm faulting you for not being able to have a nonexclusivistic, nonelitistic, nonostracizing preference.

You cannot see the forest through the trees. Here is how i actually see it. IF there was an EVF that was indistinguishable from OVF (close enough that even OVF enthusiasts would not care), and if on sensor PDAF was as fast as today's dedicated PDAF, and if battery life was just as good as an equivalent DSLR, then what? Would the shooting experience not be just as enjoyable?

Now before you say "but we are a long ways away from that", the question stands. Would you not have just as enjoyable experience with that mirrorless? My views are not exclusive, they are all inclusive because i believe all the haters would love such a mirrorless camera. If they can get by any personal walls, that is. I truly believe mirrorless is the best answer, not because i have a grudge to sort out by winning an argument, not because i have some ancient sentimental attachment to an outdated technology. Because i actually believe it's superior, or at least will be.

The more people that jump aboard mirrorless, the faster we will get there. So no, it's not a cult, it's not a religion, and it's not elitist. It's technology, and it's going to happen whether you want it to or not.

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"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

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(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 1,324
NO
7

Ontario Gone wrote:

canonagain123 wrote:

Ontario Gone wrote:

Are you faulting me for having an opinion, or for sharing it?

for spouting your opinion over and over and over and over again like some religious nut trying to convert as many people as he can. I'm faulting you for not being able to have an opinion that isn't abrasive and stepping on other people's toes. I'm faulting you for not being able to have a nonexclusivistic, nonelitistic, nonostracizing preference.

You cannot see the forest through the trees. Here is how i actually see it. IF there was an EVF that was indistinguishable from OVF (close enough that even OVF enthusiasts would not care), and if on sensor PDAF was as fast as today's dedicated PDAF, and if battery life was just as good as an equivalent DSLR, then what? Would the shooting experience not be just as enjoyable?

Now before you say "but we are a long ways away from that", the question stands. Would you not have just as enjoyable experience with that mirrorless? My views are not exclusive, they are all inclusive because i believe all the haters would love such a mirrorless camera. If they can get by any personal walls, that is. I truly believe mirrorless is the best answer, not because i have a grudge to sort out by winning an argument, not because i have some ancient sentimental attachment to an outdated technology. Because i actually believe it's superior, or at least will be.

The more people that jump aboard mirrorless, the faster we will get there. So no, it's not a cult, it's not a religion, and it's not elitist. It's technology, and it's going to happen whether you want it to or not.

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"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

You know why I wouldn't prefer it, if it was the same? For the same reason I won't suddenly change brands if some other company starts making breakfast cereal that is just as good as Kellog's. If it's truly better, I'll consider it. That said, I use an OVF because I trust my eyes more than I trust the interpretation of an EVF, and considering the kind of eyes I have decorating my head, it's for a good reason too. Technology is getting more and more cybernetic; just as your mirrorless cameras advance, so does all other kinds of tech. You think I'm emotionally attached to the past and hate all future tech? Try again. I will laser my eyes, install crystal lenses, and if necessary, have signal gain nanites injected into my optic nerve with a collective neural command downlink to my brain to improve my vision, and still look through an OVF (now far superior thanks to my signal gain nanites) because I can still trust the clear optical path through the OVF and my eyeballs directly to my brain where the information is processed more than I trust some puny EVF and an inferior processor in a dslr to do it for me. How about that?

You are the only one who wants to "get there". I don't want to "get there", I enjoy being here and getting at a better FF DSLR in the future.

As long as we have emotions, we will have an emotional component to the things we do (people who lack emotions aside). My preferences have an emotional component to them too. I like my emotions and my emotional reasons, just like I like my ability to reason. Balance of emotion and reason is important. You can try to fight that and change people, but the more you try, the more they will hate you and your mirrorless for it. You're expecting illogical, emotional people to respond logically to your illogical, emotional nonsense about it being "better" if mirrorless becomes the market leader. Come on! Think! You have a brain, use it and see your foolishness for what it is. People have emotions which they like, and you veiling your emotional reasons thinly in a pretense of "the common good" is transparent to every single person in here.

Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 17,813
Re: So much for the EVF being insufficient for action.....
1

Ontario Gone wrote:

Well in case anybody else hasn't heard, Fuji just dropped a bomb and there will likely be a lot of broken glass, as well as broken hearts. Not only is it a .77x magnification, the biggest of any digital camera, they also ratcheted down the lag. We are looking at a 0.005 sec lag time, not bad eh? The goodies are listed HERE. I guess now it's just a matter of getting that on sensor predictive tracking a bit faster and then...well, we know what then.

Next will come the predictive viewfinder. Instead of a video display or even an OVF it will use a teeny tiny crystal ball with 100% coverage. Just aim the camera where the action is in the predictive viewfinder, press the shutter, and when reality catches up to the viewfinder it snaps the shot!

And then... well, we know what then.

sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 10,456
Re: My heart warms for you
5

Ontario Gone wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

The EVFs up to this point HAVE been inadequate for action shooting.

And mirrorless folks like yourselves are the antagonizers here. This coming from a loyal NEX shooter. It's a wonder why you haven't been banned yet.

Banned? haha because i have the right to my own opinion just like you. Guess what buddy, just because you don't agree with somebody else doesn't mean you can remove them or make them be quiet. Welcome to the big boy world, you don't have control over other people. The fact supposed mature people would even try to "bann" another anonymous person is laughable, this is like kids tattle telling to the teacher in 1st grade. Are you really condoning that?

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"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

There's a clear difference between having and expressing an opinion, and being antagonistic and annoying. It's you who needs to enter the big boy world. As of right now DSLRs still have a huge leg up on mirrorless cameras in many significant areas for serious photography. Making the same threads over and over proclaiming the death of DSLRs and proclaiming feature X on a mirrorless = "the second nail in the coffin" won't change that. You can have an opinion without antagonizing everyone who doesn't share it.  And if you are going to have a strong opinion on something, make sure it's something built on facts and reason. How can an EVF with a 60fps refresh rate have a delay equivalent to 200fps? You should have thought of that before posting

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Kevin Coppalotti Veteran Member • Posts: 9,207
Fuji always over promise under deliver
2

The track record of fuji is poor, huge claims in the specs sheets, bitter after taste for early adopters. Remember the X100, it had the biggest list of faults dpreview has ever seen.

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Ontario Gone
OP Ontario Gone Senior Member • Posts: 4,183
Re: My heart warms for you

sportyaccordy wrote:

There's a clear difference between having and expressing an opinion, and being antagonistic and annoying. It's you who needs to enter the big boy world. As of right now DSLRs still have a huge leg up on mirrorless cameras in many significant areas for serious photography. Making the same threads over and over proclaiming the death of DSLRs and proclaiming feature X on a mirrorless = "the second nail in the coffin" won't change that. You can have an opinion without antagonizing everyone who doesn't share it. And if you are going to have a strong opinion on something, make sure it's something built on facts and reason. How can an EVF with a 60fps refresh rate have a delay equivalent to 200fps? You should have thought of that before posting

You are wrong with multiple points. First of all, i didn't start the "another nail in the DSLR coffin" thread, i simply posted there as have many others. Second, with the Fuji EVF info, i posted what another forum member said he read about the refresh rate of the EVF from the Fuji website. That wasn't my own assertion. Lastly, i am not responsible for what other's deem antagonistic. Much of what i read here in many forums could be antagonistic in my eyes, but i don't feel compelled to respond. I don't know you, this site is anonymous. If you or others get that mad over a stranger's comments, perhaps you should avoid forums.

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"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

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JohnJ851 Regular Member • Posts: 482
Re: So much for the EVF being insufficient for action.....
1

Ontario Gone wrote:

Ulfric M Douglas wrote:

Ontario Gone wrote:

... they also ratcheted down the lag. We are looking at a 0.005 sec lag time

Are you even using the terms correctly?

The lag time ... is usually referring to either delay between shutterpress and exposure, or delay between realtime image and EVF image : neither of which is ultimately important in EVFs for "action" : which is more affected by EVF-blackout (NOT Lag), refresh rate and C-AF performance.

According to Wiki, Lag= a failure of an application to respond in a timely fashion to inputs. As for your assertion i am wrong, i was simply quoting what Fuji has on their own website. If you want to split hairs, go file a complaint to Fuji, im sure they will take you seriously.

from Fuji's website.

As for "lag" not being important, i disagree. If you are trying to follow an erattic subject, you snap a shot when it's dead center in frame, but in reality it's not because what you see isn't where the subject really is. This improvement is important, all you have to do is ask in mirrorless forums about lag time with action shooting. They will all tell you the same thing: simply lead your subject, as if you were sniping a moving target. This Fuji EVF is much better.

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"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

By Andy Westlake (17 hours ago)

Technically the X-T1 doesn't have live view at 8 fps, instead it does the usual mirrorless camera trick of playing back recently-taken frames between shots, which gives the illusion of live view. (The giveaway is that you see a series of stills with no fluidity of motion.) This certainly helps with maintaining framing, but isn't perfect for following a moving subject.

That's a nit-pick, though, because it the X-T1 does have continuous AF at 8fps, and it genuinely seems to work quite well.

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English is my second/third language

Mike CH Veteran Member • Posts: 8,837
Perhaps you should?
2

Ontario Gone wrote:

If you or others get that mad over a stranger's comments, perhaps you should avoid forums.

Perhaps you should avoid forums?

Because, frankly, you don't seem to know how to behave.

Regards, Mike
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Mike CH Veteran Member • Posts: 8,837
Perhaps he is a vampire? Mirror and selfie is then no good...
3

YRUNVS wrote:

Were you abused by a SLR as a child?

And thus can't use a camera with a mirror for those all-important selfies...

Regards, Mike
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nzmacro
nzmacro Forum Pro • Posts: 15,138
Re: So much for the EVF being insufficient for action.....

Ontario Gone wrote:

Well in case anybody else hasn't heard, Fuji just dropped a bomb and there will likely be a lot of broken glass, as well as broken hearts. Not only is it a .77x magnification, the biggest of any digital camera, they also ratcheted down the lag. We are looking at a 0.005 sec lag time, not bad eh? The goodies are listed HERE. I guess now it's just a matter of getting that on sensor predictive tracking a bit faster and then...well, we know what then. Happy shooting

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"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

Not sure I've ever had a problem with EVF and manual focusing ...... but maybe I have

http://birdsinaction.com/index.php/Need-for-speed/Power-boats

http://birdsinaction.com/index.php/Sony-NEX-7-at-10-FPS-manual-focus-with-hand-held-500mm

http://birdsinaction.com/index.php/Birds

So do I need a Fuji instead of a NEX ?? Interesting thought.

Danny.

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sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 10,456
Re: My heart warms for you
7

Ontario Gone wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

There's a clear difference between having and expressing an opinion, and being antagonistic and annoying. It's you who needs to enter the big boy world. As of right now DSLRs still have a huge leg up on mirrorless cameras in many significant areas for serious photography. Making the same threads over and over proclaiming the death of DSLRs and proclaiming feature X on a mirrorless = "the second nail in the coffin" won't change that. You can have an opinion without antagonizing everyone who doesn't share it. And if you are going to have a strong opinion on something, make sure it's something built on facts and reason. How can an EVF with a 60fps refresh rate have a delay equivalent to 200fps? You should have thought of that before posting

You are wrong with multiple points. First of all, i didn't start the "another nail in the DSLR coffin" thread, i simply posted there as have many others. Second, with the Fuji EVF info, i posted what another forum member said he read about the refresh rate of the EVF from the Fuji website. That wasn't my own assertion. Lastly, i am not responsible for what other's deem antagonistic. Much of what i read here in many forums could be antagonistic in my eyes, but i don't feel compelled to respond. I don't know you, this site is anonymous. If you or others get that mad over a stranger's comments, perhaps you should avoid forums.

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"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

Oh I'm not mad, I'm amused. It's funny to watch you get worked up over people still using DSLRs and DSLRs remaining superior in many key aspects, including viewfinders, and then using marketing copy that doesn't make sense to try and assert otherwise.

Keep in mind I'm exclusively a mirrorless shooter.... I'm just tired of folks like you making the rest of us look like desperate, insecure, combative zealots. Not saying that's what you are, that's just how you look/sound

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Paul B Jones
Paul B Jones Senior Member • Posts: 2,632
Re: My heart warms for you
4

sportyaccordy wrote:

Oh I'm not mad, I'm amused. It's funny to watch you get worked up over people still using DSLRs and DSLRs remaining superior in many key aspects, including viewfinders, and then using marketing copy that doesn't make sense to try and assert otherwise.

Keep in mind I'm exclusively a mirrorless shooter.... I'm just tired of folks like you making the rest of us look like desperate, insecure, combative zealots. Not saying that's what you are, that's just how you look/sound

That is a reassuring message. I was starting to associate mirrorless cameras with fanaticism.

Happy photographing,

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Leonard Migliore
Leonard Migliore Forum Pro • Posts: 15,693
Even though I'm not a vampire

Mike CH wrote:

YRUNVS wrote:

Were you abused by a SLR as a child?

And thus can't use a camera with a mirror for those all-important selfies...

I can't see how you can take a selfie with an SLR unless you cheat and use live view with a swiveling screen.

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Leonard Migliore

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Mike CH Veteran Member • Posts: 8,837
Why not...
2

Leonard Migliore wrote:

Mike CH wrote:

YRUNVS wrote:

Were you abused by a SLR as a child?

And thus can't use a camera with a mirror for those all-important selfies...

I can't see how you can take a selfie with an SLR unless you cheat and use live view with a swiveling screen.

... stick a wide angle lens on the camera, set the AF to area, turn the camera around and hit the shutter?

Result can't be much worse than the majority of other selfies

Regards, Mike
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Nigel Wilkins
Nigel Wilkins Senior Member • Posts: 1,006
Re: Is the claim even true?
1

Lee Jay wrote:

According to Fuji Rumors, the refresh rate is 54fps which, if true, makes Fuji's claim of 0.005s (50ms) lag impossible to be true. If the readout and processing speed were both zero (which, of course, they aren't), a 54fps refresh rate means a lag of 1/54 = 0.0185s (18.5ms). Of course, readout and processing speed are not zero. In fact, I suspect they are 0.005s (and Fuji is ignoring the frame period) making the peak lag under ideal conditions (I doubt they are talking about low-light) 0.005+0.0185=0.0235s or 23.5ms. Since I measured my SX50 as having a total lag of 25ms, this is nothing to write home about especially since that 25ms lag made me unable to track a high speed subject I needed to shoot (I simply switched to an SLR and got the job done).

Add to that the claimed CIPA battery life of 350 shots (versus 920 for the Canon 70D) and you're right back to the same old EVF problems - too much lag, too much power use.

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Lee Jay

Excuse my ignorance, but I don't see how 54fps alters lag.  The way I see it is it takes 0.005s for the images captured by the sensor to appear on the EVF.  That image is displayed for 0.0185s (or less if it disappears before the next one is shown).  Even if it was 2fps, lag would still be the same.

It's still 0.005s between capture & display, you just don't get a refresh every 0.005s.

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Everything to do with the art of photography is a guideline. The only rules are generally enforced by the police.

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Lee Jay Forum Pro • Posts: 52,721
Re: Is the claim even true?
1

Nigel Wilkins wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

According to Fuji Rumors, the refresh rate is 54fps which, if true, makes Fuji's claim of 0.005s (50ms) lag impossible to be true. If the readout and processing speed were both zero (which, of course, they aren't), a 54fps refresh rate means a lag of 1/54 = 0.0185s (18.5ms). Of course, readout and processing speed are not zero. In fact, I suspect they are 0.005s (and Fuji is ignoring the frame period) making the peak lag under ideal conditions (I doubt they are talking about low-light) 0.005+0.0185=0.0235s or 23.5ms. Since I measured my SX50 as having a total lag of 25ms, this is nothing to write home about especially since that 25ms lag made me unable to track a high speed subject I needed to shoot (I simply switched to an SLR and got the job done).

Add to that the claimed CIPA battery life of 350 shots (versus 920 for the Canon 70D) and you're right back to the same old EVF problems - too much lag, too much power use.

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Lee Jay

Excuse my ignorance, but I don't see how 54fps alters lag. The way I see it is it takes 0.005s for the images captured by the sensor to appear on the EVF.

And then you have to wait another 23.5ms for another one - that's latency between the real world and what you are seeing in the EVF, i.e. lag.

That image is displayed for 0.0185s (or less if it disappears before the next one is shown). Even if it was 2fps, lag would still be the same.

The minimum lag, which is largely irrelevant.

It's still 0.005s between capture & display, you just don't get a refresh every 0.005s.

The lag that matters is that between photons entering the lens and leaving the EVF.

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Lee Jay

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crashpc Veteran Member • Posts: 6,697
Re: Is the claim even true?

Lee Jay wrote:

Nigel Wilkins wrote:

It's still 0.005s between capture & display, you just don't get a refresh every 0.005s.

The lag that matters is that between photons entering the lens and leaving the EVF.

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Lee Jay

Of course, but 0.005s lag makes 200FPS. This needs to be achieved even in poor light. So it´s under 1/200s for each frame. How will you solve this for dark situations, when you often need 10s for proper exposure? ISO 200 000+? Well, not my cup of tea for 4/3" or APS-C.

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Why does he do it?

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Cailean Gallimore Veteran Member • Posts: 6,083
Re: So much for the EVF being insufficient for action.....

Can anyone explain to me how to care about this topic?

Mike CH Veteran Member • Posts: 8,837
Hmm...
2

Cailean Gallimore wrote:

Can anyone explain to me how to care about this topic?

Sheer entertainment value?

Like in absurd theatre and the like?

Regards, Mike
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