Is SLT dead or alive ?

Started Jan 17, 2014 | Discussions
nandbytes Senior Member • Posts: 5,950
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?

kartikjayaraman wrote:

K E Hoffman wrote:

Mirrorless is about image quality over P&S and Phones not over DSLR/SLT class cameras.. in that case it is about size..

I don't agree with that statement. The A7/A7r deliver image quality that equals or betters the A99. And the A99 is the flagship SLT. And all are the same size sensors.

K E Hoffman wrote:

.. but optical IBIS is not coming to e-mount. (may come up with an electronic version) However... even the size has value.. to many shooters.. like shooting large lenses etc.

From all that I have read about IS...I think IS only matters if your shutter speed is slower than the inverse of the focal length you are shooting. So lets see the scenarios:

- If you are shooting indoors lets say at 35mm, you will need to use a shutter speed of 1/50 or above to be in the safe zone where IBIS does not come into play. In any case people who shoot such low shutter speeds should use a tripod.

- If you are shooting telephoto, you will mostly be freezing action like sports or birds. In this case, lets say you use a 300mm lens, you will be shooting at least 1/400 or better any ways. Anything lower, you will risk introducing blur whether or not you use IS.

There are telephoto options coming up for Sony mirror less cameras just in case people want to use OSS lenses anyways. People have been shooting cameras without IS for years. The IS only matters to a short segment of the population who choose to shoot at shutter speeds not fast enough for the focal length being shot.

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While I'd love to use my new flashy tripod everywhere I simply can't. Whenever I am travelling I end up in places where tripod isn't practical especially during night time. Like when I wanted to get picture of that Japanese bullet train, i could set up my tripod get the perfect shot and miss my train lol or IBIS will help get the picture and get on train lol. Also a lot of times I hand my camera over to people to a picture of me. I give to them in P mode so I cannot expect them to realise the they need to use my tripod and spend 5 min setting it up lol.

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pew pew
pew pew Contributing Member • Posts: 775
Re: flip-up mirror would be awesome

DT200 wrote:

Mirror down when you need real pdaf and mirror up when you want more light

Never heard of that, but sounds like a perfect compromise. You should email sony tech

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Mark K
Mark K Veteran Member • Posts: 5,608
Alive

phototherapy wrote:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-a77-successor-has-on-sensor-pdaf/

I am the one who blames SLT brings down IQ resulting in more noise, etc...despite my wish to bringing down....there has no clue that the A79 will be free from this SE

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Mark K

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K E Hoffman
K E Hoffman Senior Member • Posts: 5,101
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?

kartikjayaraman wrote:

K E Hoffman wrote:

Mirrorless is about image quality over P&S and Phones not over DSLR/SLT class cameras.. in that case it is about size..

I don't agree with that statement. The A7/A7r deliver image quality that equals or betters the A99. And the A99 is the flagship SLT. And all are the same size sensors.

K E Hoffman wrote:

.. but optical IBIS is not coming to e-mount. (may come up with an electronic version) However... even the size has value.. to many shooters.. like shooting large lenses etc.

From all that I have read about IS...I think IS only matters if your shutter speed is slower than the inverse of the focal length you are shooting. So lets see the scenarios:

- If you are shooting indoors lets say at 35mm, you will need to use a shutter speed of 1/50 or above to be in the safe zone where IBIS does not come into play. In any case people who shoot such low shutter speeds should use a tripod.

- If you are shooting telephoto, you will mostly be freezing action like sports or birds. In this case, lets say you use a 300mm lens, you will be shooting at least 1/400 or better any ways. Anything lower, you will risk introducing blur whether or not you use IS.

There are telephoto options coming up for Sony mirror less cameras just in case people want to use OSS lenses anyways. People have been shooting cameras without IS for years. The IS only matters to a short segment of the population who choose to shoot at shutter speeds not fast enough for the focal length being shot.

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You can disagree but you are IMHO WRONG...

Yes the A7 has the same IQ.. and slower AF, missing features.. etc.  Why would I buy one?  Price and SIZE.. A7R  does lead the pack for bright light.. slow AF shooting highres shooting terrible camera for action...

But again when Sony does a 36 MP DSLR level camera.. why buy an A7R  size, price.. use other peoples lenses.  Not to make sure you get the shot... in movement situations..

I am not saying the e-mount has crappy IQ... It will have what the sensor can do and Sony will not put bad sensors in.. BUT THE CAMERA as a WHOLE is about SIZE.. not capability vs a full DSLR.

BTW..

stabilization creates opportunity if you think outside the box of typical shooting..

This is a handheld IBIS 1/8sec shot taken at the Seattle Ferry Terminal.. NO TRIPOD...AND no lens stabilization.

Ghosts

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K.E.H. >> Shooting between raindrops in WA<<
Don't Panic!.. these are just opinions... go take some pictures..

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K E Hoffman
K E Hoffman Senior Member • Posts: 5,101
Re: Alive

Mark K wrote:

phototherapy wrote:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-a77-successor-has-on-sensor-pdaf/

I am the one who blames SLT brings down IQ resulting in more noise, etc...despite my wish to bringing down....there has no clue that the A79 will be free from this SE

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Mark K

Sony cameras have always been attacked for noise.. they like to have more MP and my understanding is they like to do deeper filters on the Bayer pattern for color and DR..

If you pulled the mirror and you can test this.. you will see a half stop of noise difference ... not a big deal..

SLT just gets the blame because it is easy to see.

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K.E.H. >> Shooting between raindrops in WA<<
Don't Panic!.. these are just opinions... go take some pictures..

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kartikjayaraman
kartikjayaraman Contributing Member • Posts: 563
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?

K E Hoffman wrote:

kartikjayaraman wrote:

K E Hoffman wrote:

Mirrorless is about image quality over P&S and Phones not over DSLR/SLT class cameras.. in that case it is about size..

I don't agree with that statement. The A7/A7r deliver image quality that equals or betters the A99. And the A99 is the flagship SLT. And all are the same size sensors.

You can disagree but you are IMHO WRONG...

Yes the A7 has the same IQ.. and slower AF, missing features.. etc. Why would I buy one? Price and SIZE.. A7R does lead the pack for bright light.. slow AF shooting highres shooting terrible camera for action...

I only disagreed your point about the fact "Mirrorless is about image quality over P&S and Phones not over DSLR/SLT class cameras.". That is simply not true. The A7/A7r are a living example of that fact. We are not talking about camera features like AF, missing features etc and which camera to buy here, you mentioned image quality (which translates to how much information a sensor can capture). Mirrorless cameras are no slouches there.

Regarding the slower AF that you mention they are another topic but adding an SLT adapter gives you PDAF (In a test that I read, the A7/A7r with the LAEA4 SLT adapter actually AF faster than a native A mount lens on the A99 due to the improved processor on the A7/A7r). Of course that adds a bit of bulk but that again is a trade off.

So if there are two cameras to test image quality:

1. A7/A7r with an LA-EA4 adapter and A mount lens

2. A99 with the same A mount lens

You cannot conclude that "Mirrorless is about image quality over P&S and Phones not over DSLR/SLT class cameras." The image quality in (1) will meet or exceed (2). And again we are talking image quality only.

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Marty4650
Marty4650 Forum Pro • Posts: 14,124
Dead

I say this because a semi-translucent mirror may be totally unnecessary today with the advent of on chip PDAF technology.

Any way you slice it, the fixed mirror costs you 1/3 of a stop of light. Some people say the loss is even higher. This is why the NEX7 can outperform a SLT A77 at high ISO, even though they use the same sensor.

Eliminate the mirror completely (or flip it out of the way, as the Sony A580 did) and you get 100% of the light hitting the sensor.

Despite all this, my SLT A55 is still one of the very best cameras I have ever owned, and I will be enjoying using it for a very long time into the future.

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kartikjayaraman
kartikjayaraman Contributing Member • Posts: 563
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?

nandbytes wrote:

While I'd love to use my new flashy tripod everywhere I simply can't. Whenever I am travelling I end up in places where tripod isn't practical especially during night time. Like when I wanted to get picture of that Japanese bullet train, i could set up my tripod get the perfect shot and miss my train lol or IBIS will help get the picture and get on train lol. Also a lot of times I hand my camera over to people to a picture of me. I give to them in P mode so I cannot expect them to realise the they need to use my tripod and spend 5 min setting it up lol.

Ok, let's leave tripods aside...

Although the stability factor is dependent on focal length, lets take a general scenario of a kit lens 18-55mm. Lets assume you set out to shoot at 35mm where a minimum shutter speed of 1/35 or faster is needed before you risk introducing camera shake and IS is needed:

Most humans can hand hold up to 1/80s easily without causing shake. Some people with shaky hands/arthritis/other medical conditions might need higher shutter speeds for stability. IS is useful for such people. Some with very steady hands can hand hold lower as well as much as 1/10s depending on their skills. At extremely low shutter speeds, you are risking blur anyways, not only due to the hand movement but due to the fact that subject movement may not be frozen (unless you are shooting a statue or architecture or something that is asked to remain still). In those cases as well, increasing ISO one step is an alternate solution. In most real world situations, IMO its not really a big issue unless you are shooting telephoto >200mm.

The bane of IS is that people use high shutter speeds (relative to focal lengths) and tripods and still keep IS on That causes reduced sharpness because you are using something that is compensating things that are not needed. This is why IS lenses have a button on them to turn it off when you don't need it and IS cameras have a disable option in the menu.

The post by KEH above is a good example, with 1/8s shutter speed, the people in the shot are blurred anyways so whether or not you use IS you cannot freeze action. Now in the rare scenario that you want such an effect of "Ghosts" (something not too blurred in the background but totally blurred foreground), maybe IS will help

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K E Hoffman
K E Hoffman Senior Member • Posts: 5,101
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?
1

kartikjayaraman wrote:

K E Hoffman wrote:

kartikjayaraman wrote:

K E Hoffman wrote:

Mirrorless is about image quality over P&S and Phones not over DSLR/SLT class cameras.. in that case it is about size..

I don't agree with that statement. The A7/A7r deliver image quality that equals or betters the A99. And the A99 is the flagship SLT. And all are the same size sensors.

You can disagree but you are IMHO WRONG...

Yes the A7 has the same IQ.. and slower AF, missing features.. etc. Why would I buy one? Price and SIZE.. A7R does lead the pack for bright light.. slow AF shooting highres shooting terrible camera for action...

I only disagreed your point about the fact "Mirrorless is about image quality over P&S and Phones not over DSLR/SLT class cameras.". That is simply not true. The A7/A7r are a living example of that fact. We are not talking about camera features like AF, missing features etc and which camera to buy here, you mentioned image quality (which translates to how much information a sensor can capture). Mirrorless cameras are no slouches there.

Regarding the slower AF that you mention they are another topic but adding an SLT adapter gives you PDAF (In a test that I read, the A7/A7r with the LAEA4 SLT adapter actually AF faster than a native A mount lens on the A99 due to the improved processor on the A7/A7r). Of course that adds a bit of bulk but that again is a trade off.

So if there are two cameras to test image quality:

1. A7/A7r with an LA-EA4 adapter and A mount lens

2. A99 with the same A mount lens

You cannot conclude that "Mirrorless is about image quality over P&S and Phones not over DSLR/SLT class cameras." The image quality in (1) will meet or exceed (2). And again we are talking image quality only.

But that is not the design focus in the cameras.. the same sensors can go in any camera.. and will.  Its about size..   size and more size.. world's smallest... this.. etc.

Size of a P&S + Sensor of a DSLR = Wonder Twin Powers Activate.. !!! 
  {just really dated myself there}

But only if IQ has nothing to do with empowering the photographer to adapt quickly with control options and better AF.. etc.  Have not looked at the A7 EVF yet.. but I can tell you the NEX EVF I tried was early unusable and in that format an OVF would be too..

There is a massive obsession with the controlled Studio IQ tests that really mean much less when REAL PHOTOGRAPHY is done.. because focus, framing, subject choice, timing, exposure, DOF choices etc. all overwhelm the Micro issues we obsess with in studio tests..

This is one of my favorite photos I tool of the Eiffel Tower.. because it shows something most people would walk right over..  it's a bit dark and a bit graining.. but its better than any studio noise test ever shot..

Gear vs Photography.. Measurements vs Art..

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K.E.H. >> Shooting between raindrops in WA<<
Don't Panic!.. these are just opinions... go take some pictures..

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Ari Aikomus
Ari Aikomus Veteran Member • Posts: 9,130
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?

K E Hoffman wrote:

This is one of my favorite photos I tool of the Eiffel Tower.. because it shows something most people would walk right over.. it's a bit dark and a bit graining.. but its better than any studio noise test ever shot..

Well said. I like your Eiffel Tower-shot!

Ari

Gear vs Photography.. Measurements vs Art..

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K.E.H. >> Shooting between raindrops in WA<<
Don't Panic!.. these are just opinions... go take some pictures..

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'Why should I feel lonely ? is not our planet in the Milky way?'

kartikjayaraman
kartikjayaraman Contributing Member • Posts: 563
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?

K E Hoffman wrote:

Have not looked at the A7 EVF yet.. but I can tell you the NEX EVF I tried was early unusable and in that format an OVF would be too..

Yes I also did not like the NEX6/7 viewfinders...too small IMO but the A7/A7r is quite good.

K E Hoffman wrote:

There is a massive obsession with the controlled Studio IQ tests that really mean much less when REAL PHOTOGRAPHY is done.. because focus, framing, subject choice, timing, exposure, DOF choices etc. all overwhelm the Micro issues we obsess with in studio tests..

That's true The geek inside me is also guilty of pixel peeping and I need to get rid of it some day In fact I was very Happy with my A500 for 5 years and didn't even bother to check what new cameras were there as I never really "missed" anything in my photography (except for decent AEB which I missed terribly). However studio tests or not, the A7/A7r provide stunning image quality for a mirrorless camera IMO.

K E Hoffman wrote:

This is one of my favorite photos I tool of the Eiffel Tower.. because it shows something most people would walk right over.. it's a bit dark and a bit graining.. but its better than any studio noise test ever shot...

That's a great catch! You have a nice eye! One of my best shots came when we were going back from a vacation and I pulled over to a parking spot by the road after dusk. My wife said you got all the shots you wanted in the nice places...what now? However I really did want to take the shot and it became my all time favorite shot and is one of the most viewed and liked photo:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/djkj/4367585927/in/set-72157627661196862

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K E Hoffman
K E Hoffman Senior Member • Posts: 5,101
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?

kartikjayaraman wrote:

K E Hoffman wrote:

Have not looked at the A7 EVF yet.. but I can tell you the NEX EVF I tried was early unusable and in that format an OVF would be too..

Yes I also did not like the NEX6/7 viewfinders...too small IMO but the A7/A7r is quite good.

K E Hoffman wrote:

There is a massive obsession with the controlled Studio IQ tests that really mean much less when REAL PHOTOGRAPHY is done.. because focus, framing, subject choice, timing, exposure, DOF choices etc. all overwhelm the Micro issues we obsess with in studio tests..

That's true The geek inside me is also guilty of pixel peeping and I need to get rid of it some day In fact I was very Happy with my A500 for 5 years and didn't even bother to check what new cameras were there as I never really "missed" anything in my photography (except for decent AEB which I missed terribly). However studio tests or not, the A7/A7r provide stunning image quality for a mirrorless camera IMO.

K E Hoffman wrote:

This is one of my favorite photos I tool of the Eiffel Tower.. because it shows something most people would walk right over.. it's a bit dark and a bit graining.. but its better than any studio noise test ever shot...

That's a great catch! You have a nice eye! One of my best shots came when we were going back from a vacation and I pulled over to a parking spot by the road after dusk. My wife said you got all the shots you wanted in the nice places...what now? However I really did want to take the shot and it became my all time favorite shot and is one of the most viewed and liked photo:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/djkj/4367585927/in/set-72157627661196862

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That an Awesome Shot.. LOVE IT...

Al things being equal its good to know the tie breakers like DXO ISO 800 vs ISO 1100.. etc.  But all things are never equal.  A camera fits you or it doesn't and a cleaner ISO 3200 or a dozen more AF points ... As much as I think Nikon has some great points.. Nothing Canon or Nikon has made feels like that A700 did in my hand the first time I held it.  And darned if the A77 doesn't fee as good.. and once I got over my EVF fears... All things are not equal..  So a little noise I have figured out how to deal with is not a problem..

IF Sony gave me two stops better noise.. and 30 more tacking AF points and put it in an A7 body.. I would not enjoy taking pictures as much.... they are good cameras... but something that small .. IMHO will never quite become an extension of me...

I hope the next A77 / A700 class camera feels as well and keeps the wonderful control placement..

I really do dislike the spiny dial thing on the back of the Canons... and the Canon users would hate to see it go..

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K.E.H. >> Shooting between raindrops in WA<<
Don't Panic!.. these are just opinions... go take some pictures..

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Lucas_
Lucas_ Veteran Member • Posts: 3,037
Re: Dead

Marty4650 wrote:

I say this because a semi-translucent mirror may be totally unnecessary today with the advent of on chip PDAF technology.

Not yet! The technology is not mature enough ( Sony uses it as an added AF aid on some NEX, A7 and the A99,  Canon also on its 70D ). Let's keep our feet on the ground and wait a bit more...!

... Lucas

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Always having fun with photography
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EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Dead

I say this because a semi-translucent mirror may be totally unnecessary today with the advent of on chip PDAF technology.

Any way you slice it, the fixed mirror costs you 1/3 of a stop of light. Some people say the loss is even higher. This is why the NEX7 can outperform a SLT A77 at high ISO, even though they use the same sensor.

Eliminate the mirror completely (or flip it out of the way, as the Sony A580 did) and you get 100% of the light hitting the sensor.

Despite all this, my SLT A55 is still one of the very best cameras I have ever owned, and I will be enjoying using it for a very long time into the future.

Focal Plane/Mirrorless has yet to prove itself to be a logical substitute for mirror, SLT or otherwise. It should happen eventually but may not be for couple of years.

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Glenn Veteran Member • Posts: 7,877
Re: Slamming Mirror Never Existed
1
tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 32,263
Re: Dead

Marty4650 wrote:

I say this because a semi-translucent mirror may be totally unnecessary today with the advent of on chip PDAF technology.

So far no on chip PDAF tech has been able to match the continuous AF of standard PDAF, especially at lower light levels. What happens in the future is open to debate.

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Tom
Look at the picture, not the pixels
------------
Miss use of the ability to do 100% pixel peeping is the bane of digital photography because it causes people to fret over inconsequential issues.
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digititus Senior Member • Posts: 1,560
Dead, no. Life support, yes! n/t

n/t

EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Slamming Mirror Never Existed

I do own a 5D as well as an A700 stand by my original statements.  Most of the mirror noise is AFTER the picture is taken when the mirror returns, and to call it a "slamming" is simply gross exaggeration.

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Dave

Mirror has to slam shut for PDAF (and metering) to be available. And open as quickly as possible to keep up with the shutter.

This becomes even more crucial in burst modes.

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Marty4650
Marty4650 Forum Pro • Posts: 14,124
We used to call it "mirror slap"

And somehow it became "mirror slam."

There is absolutely no denying that the impact of the mirror does cause some vibration. And it is beneficial to have no vibration.

I think "slam" is being used rather than "slap" to make it seem worse than it is.

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dlkeller Veteran Member • Posts: 6,922
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?
1

The sales share issue was driven by 1) Popularity of CanKon  2) Total lack of marketing by Sony, the public simply had no idea what the SLT design was and the advantages it gave.  Few stores carried it so the public never got to see it and even in the stores that did carry it the clerks were generally totally uniformed.

If Sony had marketed it the way they do the NEX line with special displays set up I feel it would have done much better, and still would, for that matter.

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Dave

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