Is SLT dead or alive ?

Started Jan 17, 2014 | Discussions
tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 37,192
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?
6

Every new technology is a stop gap until a new better one comes out. The SLT tech works for me now and will for years to come. That's all I care about. If sometime in the future a mirrorless A mount comes out that can match SLT I will consider buying one and sell my backup A65 but it will not make my A77 obsolete. It takes great photos now and will still do so until it dies. Having the latest cutting edge tech is not important to me as long as what I have does the job.

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Tom
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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 37,192
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?
1

I find the adapters expensive and add needless bulk and complexity. If it comes to the point where I need adapters I may change systems.

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Tom
Look at the picture, not the pixels
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Miss use of the ability to do 100% pixel peeping is the bane of digital photography because it causes people to fret over inconsequential issues.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

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Steve West Veteran Member • Posts: 5,903
both my a77 and a99 are still alive! (nt)
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dolbyscat
dolbyscat Regular Member • Posts: 250
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?
6

Sorry to be late for the party, but I was busy taking photos with my SLT...

You guys worry to much.....;-)

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EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?
1

LeicaBOSS wrote:

...but you haven't missed those shots with an A7 or A7r, for example? Or a NEX-7? Right?

I've shot birds in flight with a Canon EOS-M, baseball and indoor dodgeball with a NEX-7, fast-paced street with an A7r. Never had significant miss rates with any of these. I also have an A77. I like it, too - but I'd be crazy to say that one should get significantly more shots in focus with it.

Just even a tiny bit of skill and technique, and nobody should be missing shots with any of these.

So, I'd hate to put it this way, but if you really can't nail nearly all of your shots with on-chip PDAF - as good as it is now - take the 1/2 stop and just practice just a little harder.

I have used a7 and a7r. The AF is fast, for a mirror-less camera (one uses focal plane PDAF as assist, the other uses algorithmic/predictive software based AF assist), and especially considering that they are with full frame sensors. However, they lack the speed when tracking/distance changes occur which is where SLT steps in.

SLT needs to stay until Sony finds a way to achieve at least similar performance without a mirror.

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EinsteinsGhost
EinsteinsGhost Forum Pro • Posts: 11,977
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?
1

LeicaBOSS wrote:

I have an A77 as well. I like it, and understand your A65 is just as good - but the SLT is kind of a stop-gap. They needed to do something different (because they were getting destroyed by everyone else) and the market rewarded the SLT with a tiny 1-3% market share.

It's the SLT mirror, dude - most people don't trust it. They don't like it. It's got to go!

And it will go as soon as they fine tune the on-chip AF.

-B

Most people also don't know much beyond buying a Canon or Nikon.

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Evildogofdoom
Evildogofdoom Senior Member • Posts: 2,095
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?
2

I can confirm that as of now both my A99 and A77 are alive and still breathing.

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K E Hoffman
K E Hoffman Senior Member • Posts: 5,103
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?
1

LeicaBOSS wrote:

I have an A77 as well. I like it, and understand your A65 is just as good - but the SLT is kind of a stop-gap. They needed to do something different (because they were getting destroyed by everyone else) and the market rewarded the SLT with a tiny 1-3% market share.

It's the SLT mirror, dude - most people don't trust it. They don't like it. It's got to go!

And it will go as soon as they fine tune the on-chip AF.

-B

Not sure about "Most"  but yes it is something new... like them damned motorcars scaring the horses.. and people make odd assumptions.. I get the concern about the light loss as I do astrophotography sometimes.. I was very sensitive to that until I did some real thinking about it.

But I never really worried about the loss of IQ from it.. even on SLRs people worry about mirror slap.  We over analyze systems here.. most people just buy a camera.  Then there is the loss of IQ because of IBIS worry some used to have.. it is a moving sensor.. etc.

In reality the mirror is just a stop gap in any system that has an imaging sensor instead of film. Liveview hitting DSLRs was the beginning of the end of the mirror. Sony just got to where everything will go eventually.

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K.E.H. >> Shooting between raindrops in WA<<
Don't Panic!.. these are just opinions... go take some pictures..

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LeicaBOSS
LeicaBOSS Regular Member • Posts: 437
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?

I believe we are in general agreement. I'm not likely to purchase a next gen camera to replace the A77 either - but recognize that the future of SLT isn't bright.

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From time to time, I point my camera at the right things. This is generally when I forget everything I've learned.

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dlkeller Veteran Member • Posts: 6,922
Slamming Mirror Never Existed

To call the mirror movement in DSLR's "slamming" is a very false exaggeration of what is happening clearly intended to create false images of a system that has worked very well for a long time and is still the preferred system by most users. I'm not saying mirror less won't eventually replace it, but not with the technology out there right now for most users.

I'm not knocking the preference of many here for the SLT system and the advantages it does offer.  I'm just criticizing the dishonesty of the "slamming mirror" terminology.

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Dave

K E Hoffman
K E Hoffman Senior Member • Posts: 5,103
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?
1

kartikjayaraman wrote:

tbcass wrote:

The difference in AF speed is much more than a millisecond or two. It's big enough that it can make or break getting an in focus shot for sports or children playing. In low light the speed difference is quite obvious. The focusing accuracy with my 35mm f1.8 wide open is very good with both my A65 and A77. All in all my experience tells me you are incorrect on every one of your points. IMO the SLT is great and the 1/2 stop of light loss is insignificant and below iso 1600 has no effect on IQ.

I was guessing this was going to happen. I think the reason is Sony is selling far more mirrorless cameras and users want image quality over other things. Now its not like the mirrorless camera AF is bad, its just slow as you mentioned so Sony might provide an SLT adapter for sports/action photography (like they do for the A7 which adds the SLT and PDAF)...and that should make both kinds of customers happy. Of course I don't know how they will do a A to A mount SLT addition...that would be interesting.

Mirrorless is about image quality over P&S and Phones not over DSLR/SLT class cameras.. in that case it is about size..

The SLT is a better overall system then the e-mount  but many users don't need or want that extra function.. heck may SLT users never use the extra function.  But Sony needs to offer it.

When the PD or other technology on sensor gets as good as PD off sensor... The mirror goes and good riddance.. but optical IBIS is not coming to e-mount.  (may come up with an electronic version)  However... even the size has value.. to many shooters.. like shooting large lenses etc.

Mirrorless AF is more accurate.. heck my focus peaking focus is more accurate than the PD AF.. but slow.. For landscapes.. and still life type photos and even group shots I am moving more and more to focus peaking    The EVF lets me do things like hyper focal images easier.. doing a large group shot.  AF can get me focus on anyone person I choose.. but it make not get focus from front to back.

I would like focus peaking in AF so I could check it.. I think that actually works in DMF on older screwmount lenses..

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K.E.H. >> Shooting between raindrops in WA<<
Don't Panic!.. these are just opinions... go take some pictures..

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K E Hoffman
K E Hoffman Senior Member • Posts: 5,103
Re: Slamming Mirror Never Existed
1

dlkeller wrote:

To call the mirror movement in DSLR's "slamming" is a very false exaggeration of what is happening clearly intended to create false images of a system that has worked very well for a long time and is still the preferred system by most users. I'm not saying mirror less won't eventually replace it, but not with the technology out there right now for most users.

I'm not knocking the preference of many here for the SLT system and the advantages it does offer. I'm just criticizing the dishonesty of the "slamming mirror" terminology.

You may have never owned an KM 5D/7D  "Slamming" is an accurate term

In terms it needs to "slam" so that it comes to a hard stop.. vs something padded that flexes as it needs to handle 5=6 FPS on some systems and can't "settle in"

I do have to say as much as the A700 was an improvement over my KM5D, I love how quite the shutter only sound of the A77 is.

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K.E.H. >> Shooting between raindrops in WA<<
Don't Panic!.. these are just opinions... go take some pictures..

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Alan_S
Alan_S Senior Member • Posts: 1,831
Re: Slamming Mirror Never Existed
3

dlkeller wrote:

To call the mirror movement in DSLR's "slamming" is a very false exaggeration of what is happening clearly intended to create false images of a system that has worked very well for a long time and is still the preferred system by most users. I'm not saying mirror less won't eventually replace it, but not with the technology out there right now for most users.

I'm not knocking the preference of many here for the SLT system and the advantages it does offer. I'm just criticizing the dishonesty of the "slamming mirror" terminology.

I deeply resent your personal attack on the honesty of myself and other posters that have mentioned it in this thread. The affect of mirror vibration vs. electronic first curtain has been clearly demonstrated on this forum (by Nordstjernen) and elsewhere. Removal of that vibration (which is one of the many advancements provided by SLT and mirrorless), however small it may be in specific instances, is a clearly demonstrable improvement; not "false," not an "exaggeration," and certainly not "dishonest" to point it out.

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Ari Aikomus
Ari Aikomus Veteran Member • Posts: 9,339
SLT mirror & noise
1

K E Hoffman wrote:

LeicaBOSS wrote:

I have an A77 as well. I like it, and understand your A65 is just as good - but the SLT is kind of a stop-gap. They needed to do something different (because they were getting destroyed by everyone else) and the market rewarded the SLT with a tiny 1-3% market share.

It's the SLT mirror, dude - most people don't trust it. They don't like it. It's got to go!

And it will go as soon as they fine tune the on-chip AF.

-B

Not sure about "Most" but yes it is something new... like them damned motorcars scaring the horses.. and people make odd assumptions.. I get the concern about the light loss as I do astrophotography sometimes.. I was very sensitive to that until I did some real thinking about it.

As much as I love shooting with my Sony SLT camera, I have a very hard time to forget that there's that damn SLT mirror between the "pure optical path", a mirror that degrades the image quality a little bit...Just a little bit - but still.

I have found, and I feel that the SLT mirror increases image noise a bit - if compare to cameras without SLT mirror (but with same sensor). That " a stop gap" can be too much for someone, especially when there are a number of cameras without this technology.

SLT technology is a compromise solution, with which you can live happily, if you don't think about it too much In other words: if you're not a perfectionist (unfortunately, many of the photographers are)...

In any case it is very clear that the SLT technology is temporary solution. Sooner or later the SLT mirror is going to be history...But before that I'm going to enjoy what I have now : a well-functioning SLT camera, a very useful tool for photography!!

But I never really worried about the loss of IQ from it.. even on SLRs people worry about mirror slap. We over analyze systems here.. most people just buy a camera. Then there is the loss of IQ because of IBIS worry some used to have.. it is a moving sensor.. etc.

In reality the mirror is just a stop gap in any system that has an imaging sensor instead of film. Liveview hitting DSLRs was the beginning of the end of the mirror. Sony just got to where everything will go eventually.

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K.E.H. >> Shooting between raindrops in WA<<
Don't Panic!.. these are just opinions... go take some pictures..

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dlkeller Veteran Member • Posts: 6,922
Re: Slamming Mirror Never Existed

I do own a 5D as well as an A700 stand by my original statements.  Most of the mirror noise is AFTER the picture is taken when the mirror returns, and to call it a "slamming" is simply gross exaggeration.

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Dave

dlkeller Veteran Member • Posts: 6,922
Re: Slamming Mirror Never Existed

I simply disagree with the exaggeration of the "slamming" statement.  It is dishonest, and if that offends I'm sorry.  I find this exaggeration offensive.

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Dave

tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 37,192
Re: SLT mirror & noise

Ari Aikomus wrote:

As much as I love shooting with my Sony SLT camera, I have a very hard time to forget that there's that damn SLT mirror between the "pure optical path", a mirror that degrades the image quality a little bit...Just a little bit - but still.

Just like all those glass lens elements get in the way too.... You make no sense.

I have found, and I feel that the SLT mirror increases image noise a bit - if compare to cameras without SLT mirror (but with same sensor). That " a stop gap" can be too much for someone, especially when there are a number of cameras without this technology.

And some of them are no better or worse than cameras with SLT. 4/3 ring a bell?

SLT technology is a compromise solution, with which you can live happily, if you don't think about it too much In other words: if you're not a perfectionist (unfortunately, many of the photographers are)...

That's the crux of it. For many if not most people it's a psychological thing. Not real at all. How many of those same people put a filter on their lens? How many of those people a few years ago had a DSLR with worse IQ than today's SLT cameras and thought they were the greatest.

In any case it is very clear that the SLT technology is temporary solution. Sooner or later the SLT mirror is going to be history...But before that I'm going to enjoy what I have now : a well-functioning SLT camera, a very useful tool for photography!!

You could say the same thing about the flipping, vibration inducing DSLR mirror. It's a temporary solution until something better comes along. Of course there are OVF proponents who will say any EVF in any camera is a compromise they find unacceptable.

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Tom
Look at the picture, not the pixels
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Miss use of the ability to do 100% pixel peeping is the bane of digital photography because it causes people to fret over inconsequential issues.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/63683676@N07/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

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kartikjayaraman
kartikjayaraman Contributing Member • Posts: 563
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?

K E Hoffman wrote:

Mirrorless is about image quality over P&S and Phones not over DSLR/SLT class cameras.. in that case it is about size..

I don't agree with that statement. The A7/A7r deliver image quality that equals or betters the A99. And the A99 is the flagship SLT. And all are the same size sensors.

K E Hoffman wrote:

.. but optical IBIS is not coming to e-mount. (may come up with an electronic version) However... even the size has value.. to many shooters.. like shooting large lenses etc.

From all that I have read about IS...I think IS only matters if your shutter speed is slower than the inverse of the focal length you are shooting. So lets see the scenarios:

- If you are shooting indoors lets say at 35mm, you will need to use a shutter speed of 1/50 or above to be in the safe zone where IBIS does not come into play. In any case people who shoot such low shutter speeds should use a tripod.

- If you are shooting telephoto, you will mostly be freezing action like sports or birds. In this case, lets say you use a 300mm lens, you will be shooting at least 1/400 or better any ways. Anything lower, you will risk introducing blur whether or not you use IS.

There are telephoto options coming up for Sony mirror less cameras just in case people want to use OSS lenses anyways. People have been shooting cameras without IS for years. The IS only matters to a short segment of the population who choose to shoot at shutter speeds not fast enough for the focal length being shot.

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K E Hoffman
K E Hoffman Senior Member • Posts: 5,103
Re: SLT mirror & noise

Ari Aikomus wrote:

K E Hoffman wrote:

LeicaBOSS wrote:

I have an A77 as well. I like it, and understand your A65 is just as good - but the SLT is kind of a stop-gap. They needed to do something different (because they were getting destroyed by everyone else) and the market rewarded the SLT with a tiny 1-3% market share.

It's the SLT mirror, dude - most people don't trust it. They don't like it. It's got to go!

And it will go as soon as they fine tune the on-chip AF.

-B

Not sure about "Most" but yes it is something new... like them damned motorcars scaring the horses.. and people make odd assumptions.. I get the concern about the light loss as I do astrophotography sometimes.. I was very sensitive to that until I did some real thinking about it.

As much as I love shooting with my Sony SLT camera, I have a very hard time to forget that there's that damn SLT mirror between the "pure optical path", a mirror that degrades the image quality a little bit...Just a little bit - but still.

I have found, and I feel that the SLT mirror increases image noise a bit - if compare to cameras without SLT mirror (but with same sensor). That " a stop gap" can be too much for someone, especially when there are a number of cameras without this technology.

SLT technology is a compromise solution, with which you can live happily, if you don't think about it too much In other words: if you're not a perfectionist (unfortunately, many of the photographers are).

pixel level variations discovered under highly comtrolled test settings have nothing to do with photography. They are about gear obsession, which I participate in.  Once photography starts, the number of variables added to to the system overwhelms the level of precision revealed in tests

Much like doing detailed research on a dealer to make sure its ok to buy from them because they are 5 cents cheaper then B&H.

..

In any case it is very clear that the SLT technology is temporary solution. Sooner or later the SLT mirror is going to be history...But before that I'm going to enjoy what I have now : a well-functioning SLT camera, a very useful tool for photography!!

But I never really worried about the loss of IQ from it.. even on SLRs people worry about mirror slap. We over analyze systems here.. most people just buy a camera. Then there is the loss of IQ because of IBIS worry some used to have.. it is a moving sensor.. etc.

In reality the mirror is just a stop gap in any system that has an imaging sensor instead of film. Liveview hitting DSLRs was the beginning of the end of the mirror. Sony just got to where everything will go eventually.

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K.E.H. >> Shooting between raindrops in WA<<
Don't Panic!.. these are just opinions... go take some pictures..

-- hide signature --

- Ari Aikomus -
'Why should I feel lonely ? is not our planet in the Milky way?'

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K.E.H. >> Shooting between raindrops in WA<<
Don't Panic!.. these are just opinions... go take some pictures..

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kartikjayaraman
kartikjayaraman Contributing Member • Posts: 563
Re: Is SLT dead or alive ?

kartikjayaraman wrote:

K E Hoffman wrote:

Mirrorless is about image quality over P&S and Phones not over DSLR/SLT class cameras.. in that case it is about size..

I don't agree with that statement. The A7/A7r deliver image quality that equals or betters the A99. And the A99 is the flagship SLT. And all are the same size sensors.

K E Hoffman wrote:

.. but optical IBIS is not coming to e-mount. (may come up with an electronic version) However... even the size has value.. to many shooters.. like shooting large lenses etc.

From all that I have read about IS...I think IS only matters if your shutter speed is slower than the inverse of the focal length you are shooting. So lets see the scenarios:

- If you are shooting indoors lets say at 35mm, you will need to use a shutter speed of 1/50 or above to be in the safe zone where IBIS does not come into play. In any case people who shoot such low shutter speeds should use a tripod.

- If you are shooting telephoto, you will mostly be freezing action like sports or birds. In this case, lets say you use a 300mm lens, you will be shooting at least 1/400 or better any ways. Anything lower, you will risk introducing blur whether or not you use IS.

There are telephoto options coming up for Sony mirror less cameras just in case people want to use OSS lenses anyways. People have been shooting cameras without IS for years. The IS only matters to a short segment of the population who choose to shoot at shutter speeds not fast enough for the focal length being shot.

I would like to clarify that the IS part I explained is for stills only and excludes video shooting. For any kind of video shooting, having IS or IS lenses is useful, although post processing and adding stabilization with a plugin like ProDad Mercalli does help.

Here are a couple of videos explaining IS and why it should be turned off especially with fast lenses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRlGu9T5lXk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG2hdMdVaUE

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