Buying new camera (set) and choice between two m4/3 and FF

Started Jan 16, 2014 | Questions
azoele Contributing Member • Posts: 663
Re: Buying new camera (set) and choice between two m4/3 and FF

My 2c:

if shallow DOF is what you crave, then only full frame will satisfy it. Unless you want to resort to large manual exotic lenses, that is, which truly defy the essence of the E-M1...

I own a E-M1 and a large, very fast (1.4 primes wides and tele, exotic 200/2 glass) FF system. The E-M1 is a terrific camera, but the combination of slow speeds (f2.8 for the zoom) and short focal lengths (12-40, for example) mean huge DOF most of the time... sometimes it's very useful, but if what you're after is isolation capability, then m4/3s is certainly a no go.

Lastly, I wouldn't buy a E-M1 to use it with any kludge like manual focus lenses or speed boosters. I bought it for its quick AF speed and its ability (which surprised me) to track subjects in motion. This, and the improved ergonomics, made me spend the extra compared to the E-M5.
To shoot manual legacy lenses I'd simply save a lot and buy a E-M5, with identical image quality...

As I said, my 2c: I own the E-M1 only since 2 weeks (had a E-M5 last year and sold it as it was not useable enough for my needs), and love the form factor, speed, ergonomics, lenses. But the DOF limitations, and the sensor noise even at base iso really are a big hit to take...

Lory

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gotompoes Regular Member • Posts: 498
Re: Buying new camera (set) and choice between two m4/3 and FF

gotompoes wrote:

For your type of photography i recommend to go full frame. Whilst the E M1 is a very nice camera (assuming you get one without the shutter shock problem) the files tend to look grainy. With the full frame option the files look much more silky/velvety.
I use the a micro 4/3 system for street and some creative photography styles and several full frame systems for urban, landscape and other " considered " photography styles.
The E M1 is an ideal camera for unobtrusive type of photography.
Instead of the Nikon d 600 i use the Nikon DF with some small primes. Whilst the Df is expensive the Nikon prime lenses are cheap. If you use zoom lenses for the Nikon D 600 then the package gets quite sizable.

Like to add.
If you do not need high AF speed then the Sony A7 will be a good solution. Lens availability is limited but the A7 with 2 excellent primes and the Zeiss 24-70 could be a solution.

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Melbourne Park Senior Member • Posts: 2,683
Re: Buying new camera (set) and choice between two m4/3 and FF

I own an EM-5, but also, I own a 25mm Panasonic "Sumilux" F1.4 lens; a 45mm Olympus m43 F/1.8 lens; an Olympus m43 75mm F/1.8 lens' a 12mm Olympus m43 lens.

Very obviously, no one would use an Olympus or Panasonic m43 zoom lens if they wanted shallow depth of field. One has to use fast primes. Which are also quite compact on mFT.

What one needs to do, is work out the difference between m43 lens depth of fields, and the FF alternatives.

If bulk is an issue, then m43 and primes can provide effective shallow depth of field - and also have clean edges too (although with shallow depth of field poor edges may not matter).

If larger, bulkier lenses are not a problem, then FF sensors make much more sense.

I have also used an A7 and A7r, and found both focused very slowly indeed, and there was a time gap between shutter press and actuation. Hopefully, that situation will change. Maybe ...

I also know an owner of an A7, however is a Pro film maker and photographer ... and he says the A7r - which he owns - is a good landscape camera. But not good for anything else.

He also says Sony cameras always have poor ergonomics and joke software. While that is his opinion, it's something that creates a bit of caution for me ... I suspect if Canon brought out a mirrorless FF camera this year, it would be the big seller ...

azoele wrote:

... The E-M1 is a terrific camera, but the combination of slow speeds (f2.8 for the zoom) and short focal lengths (12-40, for example) mean huge DOF most of the time... sometimes it's very useful, but if what you're after is isolation capability, then m4/3s is certainly a no go.

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goshigoo Contributing Member • Posts: 835
Re: Buying new camera (set) and choice between two m4/3 and FF

1) I do lots of macros (1:1-9:1 scales!) and close-up photos 1:2-1:4) with my E-520
2) I take lots of landscape and environment photographs
3) I love shallow depth of field and especially on portraits, motion shots are like second nature for me.

Body - D610: GBP 1299

1) and 3) - Nikon 105 Macro VR: GBP 609

2) Nikon 18-35mm f/3.5-4.5: ~GBP 500
Total: GBP 2408

Other lenses for portrait:
35 f/1.8: GBP 519
85 f/1.8: GBP 379

Melbourne Park Senior Member • Posts: 2,683
Re: Buying new camera (set) and choice between two m4/3 and FF

goshigoo wrote:

1) I do lots of macros (1:1-9:1 scales!) and close-up photos 1:2-1:4) with my E-520
2) I take lots of landscape and environment photographs
3) I love shallow depth of field and especially on portraits, motion shots are like second nature for me.

Body - D610: GBP 1299

1) and 3) - Nikon 105 Macro VR: GBP 609

2) Nikon 18-35mm f/3.5-4.5: ~GBP 500
Total: GBP 2408

Other lenses for portrait:
35 f/1.8: GBP 519
85 f/1.8: GBP 379

While you are right perhaps, its not that simple.

For instance, portraiture is traditionally 85mm to 135mm.

As an example, the Nikor 135 F/2.0 lens.

You Pay:$1,299.00

It also lacks image stabilisation - something that an Olympus m43 provides. at F/2.0

The depth of field of the Nikon 135 at F/2.0, from 15 feet, is about 0.44 feet. The Olympus 75mm (equivalent to a 150mm in "reach") @ F/1.8 (where its incredibly clean) is 0.66 feet. Step forwards two feet, and the depth of field becomes 0.49 feet - similar to the Nikon on an FF sensor. And that half a foot is less than the depth from a shirt's front to the back of one's head anyway ... focusing such lenses adequately is a real issue due to shallowness of depth of field, even with the 75mm m43 lenses here.

Bokeh wise - the difference will be how the lens creates bokeh - which is a somewhat esoteric valuation. Commentators say the Olympus 75mm has great bokeh ...

When I take photos of people with the 25mm Panasonic Sumilux prime, I've found in dinner table shots, that it's F/1.4 setting results in only one person ever being in focus ... it becomes extremely difficult to capture two people's faces in focus in such common environments. Hence F/1.4 even in a m43, is not an easy lens to operate. In FF cameras, its often a nightmare.

So ... even comparing FF with m43, things are not "black and white". And interestingly, there is little difference between APS/C and m43 ... so its strange so many have condemned m43's sensors as being much smaller than APS/C, when in practice there's little depth of field differences.

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Sergey_Green
Sergey_Green Forum Pro • Posts: 11,558
As an example ..
2

Melbourne Park wrote:

While you are right perhaps, its not that simple.

For instance, portraiture is traditionally 85mm to 135mm.

As an example, the Nikor 135 F/2.0 lens.

You Pay:$1,299.00

It also lacks image stabilisation.

And it beats every lens you can ever have for mFT. And if it is too expensive then there is always 85/1.8 for a fraction of the DC lens price.

Its depth of field is not much different to Olympus's F/1.8 (=> F/3.6mm) because the Olympus lens is longer. Using very bright lenses on FF is not easy, because one can very easily loose clarity on your subject at full aperture.

There is a discussion still on the front page just about that. With this page for start,

http://500px.com/ElenaShumilova

And add in more than one person, and the edge clarity becomes an issue, which is an FF problem. Normally improved by stepping down ...

For example,

http://meninenuotrauka.lt/lt/family/

Big problem!

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- sergey

Melbourne Park Senior Member • Posts: 2,683
Re: As an example ..

Sergey_Green wrote:

And it beats every lens you can ever have for mFT. And if it is too expensive then there is always 85/1.8 for a fraction of the DC lens price.

On a recent Full Frame Nikon body, sure; but ... that lens alone weighs more than an Em-1 with the 75mm F/1. attached. Try taking your FF lenses onto a plane with you ... or walking around on holiday. Plus, you sure stand out ... When you add a Nikon FF body, things get once again, a lot heavier. And bigger ... the lens itself is almost 5 inches long, and it weighs almost 2 pounds.

The 75mm has won awards for lack of distortion - but in the future, improved sensors will out resolve the 75mm. That's progress. Just as with the 800E Nikon FF, portrait photographers have found the new sensor too sharp.

So - we are approaching an era, where the old bottlenecks have shifted. m43 sensors were crap. Now, they perform much like good APS/C sensors. And all such sensors, will continue to get better too.

The bottleneck in quality these days, has shifted far more to the event and to the photographer. 3D lenses may challenge all the rules we currently have about depth of field adjustment. And also what we'll use the photographs for is also changing ... so while I recommended a low cost FF camera for this thread starters best option - like you - its not a simple decision IMO. The fact is that the EM-1 handles superbly, has an immense "keeper" rate, has a wide choice of prime lenses, and its a light weight package. Its unique at the moment, but for Pro studio work, its not in the ballpark. But then again, an FF Nikon isn't either.

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Sergey_Green
Sergey_Green Forum Pro • Posts: 11,558
Yup ..
1

Melbourne Park wrote:

On a recent Full Frame Nikon body, sure;

I actually bought it when I still had 12mpx APS-C, 36mpx FF only made it better.

but ... that lens alone weighs more than an Em-1 with the 75mm F/1. attached.

And I like how it balances on the camera, strong and solid.

Try taking your FF lenses onto a plane with you ...

Do it all the time

or walking around on holiday.

Walk up high peaks, ski down the Alps, come down with pictures.

Plus, you sure stand out ...

Eye contact is very important for me when photographing people.

When you add a Nikon FF body, things get once again, a lot heavier. And bigger ...

And I can not tell you how good it feels to handle such cameras in gloves.

the lens itself is almost 5 inches long, and it weighs almost 2 pounds.

Ok, any more points?

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- sergey

Melbourne Park Senior Member • Posts: 2,683
Re: Yup ..

Sergey_Green wrote:

And I like how it balances on the camera, strong and solid.

Try taking your FF lenses onto a plane with you ...

Do it all the time

I take all my lenses into the cabin with me. And my notebook. And an iPad sometimes. And some drives. And a flash. Its all light and compact.

or walking around on holiday.

Walk up high peaks, ski down the Alps, come down with pictures.

Plus, you sure stand out ...

Eye contact is very important for me when photographing people.

I think eye contact is really important too. And I've found that with an OM-D, I can hold the camera in one hand, and talk to people, and wave at them etc, while looking at the EVF. And then I can touch the EVF with a finger on the particular person's face where I want the focus to be (and your really need to, because the shallow depth of field means you are only going to get one person's eye's in focus) and bingo - the camera focus's perfectly and takes the photo. I get a natural photo, with people relaxed and natural because they've been talking to me and I haven't had to put my eye anywhere near a viewfinder. And it's all light enough to hold with one hand.

When you add a Nikon FF body, things get once again, a lot heavier. And bigger ...

And I can not tell you how good it feels to handle such cameras in gloves.

I've had my gear on yachts. I rang Nikon and Canon service departments, and they said forget taking any of the cameras into my environment, unless they were in full diving cases. With the Olympus sealing systems, I've washed down my gear under a tap. No issues whatsover. I have to wash them down, because of the salt water. And anyhow, on a pitching boat, a Nikon FF would be a weapon, especially with some big glass attached.

As far as gloves go - you are right with the EM-5. But the EM-1 looks glove capable. And if its so cold you need gloves - then at least the EM-1 will work at -10 Celsius. A Nikon FF won't.

the lens itself is almost 5 inches long, and it weighs almost 2 pounds.

Ok, any more points?

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- sergey

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goshigoo Contributing Member • Posts: 835
Re: Yup ..

For Landscape
go for m43, because you usually need to travel / hike long to reach the destination and IQ of m43 is good enough as you are usually take static object and do not really shallow DoF
the 7-14mm / 12mm f2 are amazing piece of glass

For Snapshot/Street Photography
m43 rocks here, small and invisible, no doubt about it

For Portrait
FF DSLR is definitely better, there is no doubt about it; lenses are cheaper, produce much better bokeh, better DoF (remember you can STOP DOWN and boost ISO to increase Dof if needed; FF offers 1.5+ times better ISO than m43 for the same Shutter/Aperture)

For Macro
a D800 + 105 Macro VR is the best for sure; the details is amazing
No m43 camera + native macro lens can beat it

For Sport
PDAF is still better than CDAF even with EM1's hybrid AF, so go for FF DSLR
For Wildlife
FF DLSR, many lenses choice / PDAF; but expensive and very heavy
for m43 you can go for Panasonic 100-300, which is a much lighter/cheaper setup bit do not expect top IQ!

So.......
You really need both FF DSLR and m43!

Melbourne Park wrote:

Sergey_Green wrote:

And I like how it balances on the camera, strong and solid.

Try taking your FF lenses onto a plane with you ...

Do it all the time

I take all my lenses into the cabin with me. And my notebook. And an iPad sometimes. And some drives. And a flash. Its all light and compact.

or walking around on holiday.

Walk up high peaks, ski down the Alps, come down with pictures.

Plus, you sure stand out ...

Eye contact is very important for me when photographing people.

I think eye contact is really important too. And I've found that with an OM-D, I can hold the camera in one hand, and talk to people, and wave at them etc, while looking at the EVF. And then I can touch the EVF with a finger on the particular person's face where I want the focus to be (and your really need to, because the shallow depth of field means you are only going to get one person's eye's in focus) and bingo - the camera focus's perfectly and takes the photo. I get a natural photo, with people relaxed and natural because they've been talking to me and I haven't had to put my eye anywhere near a viewfinder. And it's all light enough to hold with one hand.

When you add a Nikon FF body, things get once again, a lot heavier. And bigger ...

And I can not tell you how good it feels to handle such cameras in gloves.

I've had my gear on yachts. I rang Nikon and Canon service departments, and they said forget taking any of the cameras into my environment, unless they were in full diving cases. With the Olympus sealing systems, I've washed down my gear under a tap. No issues whatsover. I have to wash them down, because of the salt water. And anyhow, on a pitching boat, a Nikon FF would be a weapon, especially with some big glass attached.

As far as gloves go - you are right with the EM-5. But the EM-1 looks glove capable. And if its so cold you need gloves - then at least the EM-1 will work at -10 Celsius. A Nikon FF won't.

the lens itself is almost 5 inches long, and it weighs almost 2 pounds.

Ok, any more points?

windsprite
windsprite Senior Member • Posts: 2,554
Re: Yup ..

Melbourne Park wrote:

And if its so cold you need gloves - then at least the EM-1 will work at -10 Celsius. A Nikon FF won't.

That is utter BS.

Julie

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Melbourne Park Senior Member • Posts: 2,683
Re: Yup ..

windsprite wrote:

Melbourne Park wrote:

And if its so cold you need gloves - then at least the EM-1 will work at -10 Celsius. A Nikon FF won't.

That is utter BS.

Julie

You're right. I should have said according to the manuals. The reality is that besides lubricants and freezing condensation, the main issues with cold weather are the batteries, and a DSLR will stress the batteries less. Olympus though have gone to some trouble to have the EM-1 work at lower temperatures, because their manual temperature operating condition guides have gone down, and they advertise this change too. But the proof will be up to people doing so, and no doubt with lots of batteries (which loose effectiveness the colder it gets). And yes - there's tonnes of tough taken in extreme conditions with Nikon DSLRs. At the end of the day, it's up to how smart the photographer in using their gear. And there'll be lots of Canons and Nikons at the coming winter Olympics - and no Olympus cameras.

As far as using on yachts and rubber duckies though, both Canon and Nikon recently advised me that neither of their DSLR goods were suitable for the uses I put Olympus DSLRs through. They did tell me the more weatherproof bodies though, and the typical areas where they have problems (I rang the service departments). For instance, the shutter button is a weakness are which differs between various cameras. Perhaps though both companies - Nikon and Canon - which offer Pro support - realize for Pro work, bare gear can't be supported by them in salt water environments. I did not ring Olympus support here though - I just know their gear does work in such environments, and a Pro yacht photographer from Sweden confirmed to me years ago before I bought an Olympus E-1 that that unit and the weatherproof lenses did stand up to such conditions.

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turbsy
turbsy Contributing Member • Posts: 905
Re: Buying new camera (set) and choice between two m4/3 and FF

Mk82 wrote:

I am about to buy a new camera and I want to start fresh if possible as my main gear got destroyed (crushed) and nothing than metal/magnesium pieces and glass was left in flat form.

My secondary gear (now the only one) was Olympus E-520 double kit. 24-45mm and 70-300mm what I used for macro and low light photography.

Now I am going to spend 800-2400€ to new set and I have difficulties to make a choice.

Here are my choices:

1) Olympus E-M1 + 12-40mm f/2.8 for 2199€

Then later buy a DHL-7 grip to give extra battery and better portrait handling.

Probably as well get a speedbooster with OM mount (0.7x) to attach old OM macro set and prime lenses. Or simply a OM and 4/3 adapters.

2) Olympus E-M5 + 12--50mm f/3.5-6.3 & 40-150 f/4-5.6 for 799€

Then later buy a DHL-6 dual-grip and FV-4 both about 240€

And same as in choice 1) adapters/booster.

3) Nikon D600 for 1449€ and Jupion grip for it 129€

Then get a nice f/1.4 50mm Nikkor for it 199€

Later some kind 18-22mm wide angle lens and 85-200mm tele.

And now what I want and need.

1) I do lots of macros (1:1-9:1 scales!) and close-up photos 1:2-1:4) with my E-520

2) I take lots of landscape and environment photographs

3) I love shallow depth of field and especially on portraits, motion shots are like second nature for me.

And now the what I like in those cameras and what are my limits:

I suddenly got two years ago a pain to my eyes and on next morning I lost permanentally my vision by about 1-2 diopters. Nothing wrong was found and only one doctor of dozen or so was heard about similar case. Result was I got glasses and it has taken this time to even wear glasses in daily life as I had perfect vision before what ever triggered it (I could read 20cm letters from 2km distance at night and medium rain from moving car as long the text was light) and I really hate glasses when using a cameras. Now I have 5th degree astigmatic what means I see lots of reflections on longer distances, what makes every optical device hard to use especially at low light.

I love E-520 because its live view and remote control via USB in studio environment. Its preview for whitebalance has come nice trick in some cases but not so important as I use grey card to balance before shooting and nevertheless RAW almost always.

I really liked its stabilization system and definetly its dust remover what has allowed me to swap lenses even under sand/mud storms without fearing destroying sensor.

But I really missed shallow depth of field what FF cameras offers so I bought to it a OM adapter to give access to Zuiko 28mm f/2 and 50mm f/1.2 and f/1.8 and they gave me some of the feelings what it was shooting FF camera.

Reason why I would buy a Nikon is cheap price and shallow depth of field, but I even could consider 1.6x crop camera with light booster to give -1 stop and shallower depth with few old manual focus lenses if live view would be as fast as with m4/3 and capture shots as fast without delay (mirror).

But the size is huge and only benefit I find is their weight helps to stabilize the camera but they are clumsy and difficult to wear, what was reason why OM-1 and OM-2 cameras are better than any Nikon or Canon film cameras in usability and speed (I even have today two motor grips giving 5 FPS)

Olympus M5 is more like OM-2 but the display requires bigger grip so M1 feels better on that.

I really love the idea of EVF and I didn't notice so big difference in size but resolution requires me to think FV-4 if I take M5 and gives bonus for 90 degree possibility angle for macro, street and portrait photography.

The M1 has WiFi what I liked when tested with the live bulb mode. I do now and then 30-180s exposures with ultra dim neutral grey filters (2xnd400) what gives long exposure times for daylight shooting and live view has helped on that a lot as it gave some visual hint what was sharp and how photo was composed in its boost mode. Optical view didn't five possibility to that all! And same thing with macro when you add 30-35cm between lens and sensor and you working area is 1x0.3mm it comes impossible to see what you are shooting without bright light source and there the 7-10x live view magnification is just awesome for great manual focusing.

And again the 2x crop factor helps here too as it gives extra steps for close-up shots with normal lenses.

For landscape I like the possibility to see what I get before launching, as most of the times there is no seconds to waste when doing landscape shooting. You can not try and make mistakes as the correct lightning can be over in time when you notice the metering was wrong. Instead wasting for EV bracketing or metering around, it sounds nice to see what you get from EVF but how well does it work? As waiting months or even year to get correct lightning and then spending hours/days on location just to miss once or few times the perfect light does frustrate more than missing shot when shooting while just driving around.

I tested 30min M1 in store (OIShare in tablet too) and I didn't find spot where to try it in low light or high contrast subject. So I ask about M1 owners how well it does show you the results? I was amazed by the speed on both olympus and size of M1 VF but as I can not turn it up, it gives VF-4 some benefit to buy, even when it should be same display module.

The image stabilization system was amazing, I tested it and I shaked more and more camera in 40mm end and I noticed that how much I was trying to shake it without seeing anything moving. I have never seen anything like it, E-520 stabilization system was already a amazing years back and nothing was close to it on Nikon or Canon lenses and now I am scared about idea to get a FF camera (D600) as I don't want to buy anymore every lens with VR/IS to get something in low light with acceptable DOF (f/4-8).

Am I crazy if I don't get E-M5 or D600?

Price for E-M1 is huge but.... That single lens seems to fit for most my situations very well. Attaching a old 4/3 lens with its PDAF is tempting and I see wet dreams from speedbooster and 50mm f/1.2 to turn 70mm f/0.85-0.9 so it would be about f/1.4 by DOF but when speedbooster costs $400 it is just new extra cost...

For wedding/funeral and other shooting (from indoor sports to dancing in low light etc) I need speed, wide angles and long tele. The 12-40mm covers wide range of needed ones but then again 70-300 could give benefit in many situations but how about 7-14mm for M1/M5? They give worth to their money? As even then I need speed so I can stop motion at longer range.

The M5 features would be enough but WiFi control, live bulb, PDAF sounds to be huge benefit but I could still live without them if EVF could give something benefit, attaching flash setups wirelessly or with sync cable...

I have very hard times to deny from buying M5 for cheap price but it requires to invest more to multiple lenses, external EVF, dual battery grip. Or then get just the body for 599€ and think about was it wise not to spend 3x for M1 or D600?

So few features I can see in FF, mainly the shallower DOF, higher megapixel count and of course again the stupid "pro status" with a bigger camera when in sport events etc where you can even be thrown out of press area because you are not pro as you have just "hobbiest" camera and waving press card doesn't help at all.

if you are ok with the weight of the full frame camera then the only get the D600.  The only other advantage to M4/3 is the deep depth of field for the Macro work you do.

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OP Mk82 Regular Member • Posts: 259
Re: Buying new camera (set) and choice between two m4/3 and FF

Rocky ID Olympian wrote:

I just bought E-M1 which previously I have E-M5. Used to have E-520 also.

Just from E-M5 to E-M1 I can feel big difference in EVF, grip and other functions. I Think you should get E-M1. This camera is a keeper, we can use it way more than 3 years and will still sufficient for us.

Reading about your condition, E-M1 EVF will bring huge advantage for you in low light.

Does those EVF cause problems in cold weather or similar weirdness? It is tempting that brightness adjustment but it as well seems to be limited somehow as there is way to disable it.

Didn't E-M5 have a OLED EFV whats problem is its brightness dims in time?

In low light conditions when I get to situation where I am more or less shooting almost blind with OFV by gut feeling (experience) I love the idea where view is boosted. But with E-520 had this nice live view boost what as well dropped frame rate if kept colorful (otherwise went B/W) and it was nice feature. Does the EFV work similar manner too?

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OP Mk82 Regular Member • Posts: 259
Re: From your requirements

Art_P wrote:

I'd definitely take the E-M1 over the 5... after adding grip and EV-4 to the 5, you're getting quite close to the E-M-1 price... and you still will be missing WiFi, HDR, full metal chassis and a bunch of other upgrades.

I have counted that it goes to very similar range depending then what lens I would buy after.

But that FV-4 90-degree flip possibility is tempting feature too.

Biggest advantage I see to FF would be higher res and DR, biggest disadvantage would be size

As far I have found, E-M1 will lose only to D800 a 1/3 of stop in exposure range and dynamic range is very well controlled until going over ISO 6400. For resolution wise I could see well x2 or even x4 multiplying image size if size really matters as so many have promoted the sharpness on those Olympus lenses.

9:1 macro? using a reversed lens or bellows? Do you do much focus stacking?

Bellows. Does altough require pretty fancy old OM flash too to give enough flash power but the live view made it very nice to use even by handheld. For focus stacking I haven't done much as when focus area for me is 1-1/10 of millimeter the targets fit almost totally to DOF with 2x crop factor with f/16 so it is f/32. There I just see huge disadvange from FF.

I don't see shallow DoF being an advantage for landscape (depending on your style) or macro... perhaps for portraits.

It would be for portraits and landscape (small subjects at close or medium range as well to be sharp or unsharp). I have seen only few shots from m4/3 what has offered a few centimeter DOF, where example tip of the nose is unsharp and then ear is too so between that 10cm is sharp area. I do admire shots what I could take with medium and full format cameras where only iris is sharp and rest is unsharp but used to please too with kino film DOF range too.

Somewhat I wish I could get sometimes that 2-3cm DOF with speedbooster if required (instead just having faster lens).

As for looking more 'pro' to get into the press area, mount a 50-200 w adapter (or the 40-150 2.8 when it comes out) bulk up w the battery grip, and that should be sufficient to impress

BTW, how does one totally flatten one's kit? Steamroller? Tank?

Latter one. When a few tens of tons rolls suddenly over your full gear backpack, you are happy only it wasn't you at that moment. Even when scientifically MBT track weight per square centimeter to ground is much less than 80kg human with size of 42 (EU) shoe is to ground, it does get lots of damage if something gets between it and ground.

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Olympus E-M1
OP Mk82 Regular Member • Posts: 259
Re: Buying new camera (set) and choice between two m4/3 and FF

neil holmes wrote:

Hi

You actually sound like a candidate for the Sony A7.

Of your choices, I would go with the Oly but I would suggest having a try of a A7 (and I would not recommend it to anyone WITHOUT trying it as it can be quite polarising.....me I love it as well as my GX7.

I started to think about Sony A7 too because size, weight and FF sensor. But after comparing DPR test photos side by side, I have hard time to get it over m4/3 offerings. I managed only to hold it for mínute in store but nothing else as it was without power. But the lenses available to it seems little scary and especially that I am very unfamiliar with Sony cameras and my personal bias against them as I don't respect Sony as corporation what is huge problem too :/

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Olympus E-M1
OP Mk82 Regular Member • Posts: 259
Re: Buying new camera (set) and choice between two m4/3 and FF

MrGubrz wrote:

the 600 oil issues would scare me away from that one. 610, but then its huge, so id never take it off a tripod... so it wouldnt get used much.. but thats ME

em5 + vf4? that would be oddly large n bulky looking

id just go with the em1 out of those options

A oil issue? Need to check that out. 610 offer I didn't even check but those sizes does weigh a lot in comparison.

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Olympus E-M1
OP Mk82 Regular Member • Posts: 259
Re: Buying new camera (set) and choice between two m4/3 and FF

gotompoes wrote:

For your type of photography i recommend to go full frame. Whilst the E M1 is a very nice camera (assuming you get one without the shutter shock problem) the files tend to look grainy. With the full frame option the files look much more silky/velvety.

I have read that E-M5/E-M1 noise isn't actually so much in RGB channels but in luminance channel from where it is pretty easy to remove? But to me the grain isn't a problem, I am use to it and I actually prefer random grain look (I don't like noise, and from there I even like Olympus noise on max values as it is good looking one) as it brings life to picture. So I can't understand so much those who demand all the time smooth photo as possible..

I use the a micro 4/3 system for street and some creative photography styles and several full frame systems for urban, landscape and other " considered " photography styles.
The E M1 is an ideal camera for unobtrusive type of photography.
Instead of the Nikon d 600 i use the Nikon DF with some small primes. Whilst the Df is expensive the Nikon prime lenses are cheap. If you use zoom lenses for the Nikon D 600 then the package gets quite sizable.

Have you had problems with the EVF eye sensor when holding camera close your shirt?

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Olympus E-M1
OP Mk82 Regular Member • Posts: 259
Re: Yup ..

but ... that lens alone weighs more than an Em-1 with the 75mm F/1. attached.

And I like how it balances on the camera, strong and solid.

That I love in heavy cameras that you have extra weight when you are in more demanding shooting locations, it dampens the shake and it dampens movement when you are hit by strong winds or even wood branches. The feel is great because you can so easily rotate to portrait and you have good grip again in side, why I would get grip for OM-D and use when needed. But when I want weight, it is easier to add than remove. So use a special lead attachment to bottom and you easily get even 1kg more weight if wanted.

And I can not tell you how good it feels to handle such cameras in gloves.

Have you handled OM-2 with gloves? Even when it was way smaller than Canon or Nikon SLR cameras it was easier to handle with gloves than those larger ones. Then when you attached a motor end to it you got something what made Canon and Nikon shooters so jealous as you had so small package what was almost perfect to handle (some grips missed the second trigger).

I would like to know opinions from people who have used OM-D (E-M1?) with gloves how well did they find rear and front wheels work, how the trigger feels and is thumb on the way? This by using a thicker leather (or similar) gloves and not some nice very thin crocheted gloves.

As with those you start knowing how it feels to be old and not a young... My mother use to say to me when I was 15 years old that if I put working gloves on my hands then I would know how it feels to live with old hands.

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Olympus E-M1
OP Mk82 Regular Member • Posts: 259
Re: Buying new camera (set) and choice between two m4/3 and FF

Melbourne Park wrote:

I own an EM-5, but also, I own a 25mm Panasonic "Sumilux" F1.4 lens; a 45mm Olympus m43 F/1.8 lens; an Olympus m43 75mm F/1.8 lens' a 12mm Olympus m43 lens.

Very obviously, no one would use an Olympus or Panasonic m43 zoom lens if they wanted shallow depth of field. One has to use fast primes. Which are also quite compact on mFT.

A single good portrait lens would be fine for me to start. Have been now checking that Panasonic 25mm f/1.4 for that purpose.

I have also used an A7 and A7r, and found both focused very slowly indeed, and there was a time gap between shutter press and actuation. Hopefully, that situation will change. Maybe ...

I also know an owner of an A7, however is a Pro film maker and photographer ... and he says the A7r - which he owns - is a good landscape camera. But not good for anything else.

I now on this week spent time, a lot of time, considering and finding out about that Sony A7. But it does have few features I just don't like.

- Slow burst mode (I do like more than 5 FPS and E-M1 offer of 10FPS is maybe more than enough).

- No IBIS at all (main drawback) what gives me lots of thinking because with little shake on hands already it doesn't feel good combo for so small and light camera body.

- Exposed sensor to dust.I have no experience from the Sony implementation for the ultrasonic and charge protection but I just know that with E-520 I never even worried about exposing sensor in any situation, no matter of wind or particles as was enough I just turned my back to wind when swapping lens and kept body downward.

- Ridiculous shutter noise. I can't even think about shooting with it on funerals (when you meet more often family and your generation in funerals than wedding you know silence is blessing). And I can not really get how does these mirrorrless cameras generate so loud noise. Long time ago I owned a while an Canon S2 IS camera and when I picked that small baby to hand I always loved how discreate you could be with it, you didn't generate any sound when snapping. When I tested E-M1 in store I didn't much notice the shutter sound, just that it was there so I do need to go and test hear it again and probably compare those two side by side as well.

I do have the feeling that Sony A7 is good too for slower paced photography like when going just on walks to forest or fields, what I am not yet prepared to do

He also says Sony cameras always have poor ergonomics and joke software. While that is his opinion, it's something that creates a bit of caution for me ... I suspect if Canon brought out a mirrorless FF camera this year, it would be the big seller ...

I got the feeling from video reviews that the software would be good. For erconomics testing I am about to go in few days to check body myself but I am wondering about the software features.

Even that I don't like Sony, I must give a change to A7 to proof it could be serious challenger.

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