Proffessional interest in Mirrorless/M43 overstated...

Started Jan 14, 2014 | Discussions
Lindsay D Contributing Member • Posts: 630
Re: Proffessional interest in Mirrorless/M43 overstated...

I can see you have a poor opinion of professional photographers Rick, but unless you're out there doing it yourself it can be very hard to understand why some photographers choose not to upgrade their equipment as often as others. It can also be very easy to offer criticism from a position of relative comfort, if that is the case. We're all different.

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Lab D Senior Member • Posts: 6,938
Its all about lenses
1

DJF77 wrote:

No one in their right mind would use M43s for sports work, a serious pro wouldn't even consider it. As nice as mirrorless systems are (which is what I soley own) they do not have the rugged build quality, focus tracking performance and high ISO ability as the pro grade Canon and Nikon systems. There maybe a very few exceptions, people with disabilities etc who have to make mirrorless work for them, but it's certainly the minority.

People here always focus on a sensor or a sensor size and yet, as I try to tell everyone it is about the photographer 1st and lenses 2nd.  M43 doesn't have any long wide aperture lenses for sports like Canikon does, and Canikon has a great large variety/range.  I have the Panasonic 35-100mm F/2.8 and it is pretty good (not long enough), but can't compare to a Canon or Nikon 600mm F/4 lens.   Now there are a small number of M43 and NEX users out there using those long "sports/action" lenses and getting good results manually focusing, but they don't have their livelihood riding on their results.

So, I don't think anyone should pick a system because of the latest sensor or camera body, but they should instead look at the lenses available and decide which will work best for them over the years and decades.

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Doug Brown Veteran Member • Posts: 3,952
My plan ....
2

For the Canadian International Auto Show's media day in Feb. I'm taking my Olympus E-P5, 14-54mm Digital Zuiko with adapter, and the 40-150mm for press announcements ... going micro all the way, just like I did the last three years of covering it.

You won't catch me hauling a honkin' DSLR and bag of lenses around there.

Douglas Brown

itsanewdawn
itsanewdawn Forum Member • Posts: 50
Re: Proffessional interest in Mirrorless/M43 overstated...
2

There are talented photographers delivering outstanding work on all kinds and formats of cameras. The tiny {compared to Nikon and Canon} professional user group for mFT is hardly surprising it has only been going for 5 and half years. That is no time to change the habits of a lifetime pro shooter, many of whom will have been using the same brand for years. Contrary to what you read in DPreview, most people and certainly not most pros don’t change their gear every half hour . A seasoned pro may have many thousands of pounds, dollars etc worth of lenses, cameras and accessories for their chosen brand. Making changing systems a major undertaking, there would need to be an incredibly pressing reason to jump ship to go through the hassle of this.

Another critical area where few can compete with Canon or Nikon is in their respective professional services Canon and Nikon have a massive worldwide network delivering the services a pro may need. Then there are the fundamentals, other than the size advantage, mFT offers no image quality advantage nor does it offer much of a cash advantage {when you actually compare apples with apples}. I am not downplaying the size advantage it is a very significant advantage especially for photographers who move around a lot.

The reason for so few professionals using mFT gear is probably much the same as the reason why outside Japan so few have adopted mFT. Market penetration, for decades Canon and Nikon have been the brands of choice and they dominated film almost as much as they now do with digital.

Even if we ignore the millions of Nikon and Canon cameras, lenses, flashguns etc. That were already out there before mFT was even released. Even now DSLR sales {dominated by Canon and Nikon} continue to on a world wide scale hugely out sell all mirrorless sales . The total mirrorless shipments worldwide make up just under 19% of the interchangeable lens camera market with the remaining 81% being DSLR . So there are 4 DSLR’s selling for every 1 mirrorless. mFT share of the mirrorless market { at least in Japan } is 43.8% , that is 8.23% of the interchangeable lens camera market. Which means that there are almost 10 DSLRs sold for every 1 mFT camera. So the continued dominance of DSLR’s amongst pro shooters is hardly surprising.

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tjdean01 Senior Member • Posts: 2,255
Re: You guys both miss the point...

Sean Nelson wrote:

tjdean01 wrote:

And that's because the Internet stuff has and always be irrelevant. Give me a TV from 1980 and I'll buy a blu-ray player and make it a smart TV. The world is brainwashed by advertising.

Yes indeed, that's a huge part of the reason that smart TVs annoy me.

Haha, you got me! 

XVOYAGERX Senior Member • Posts: 1,188
Re: Don't make silly posts then.

Perhaps your square head would be a prime candidate for wasting a m4/3rd image lolololo

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XVOYAGERX Senior Member • Posts: 1,188
Re: Don't make silly posts then.

my recent comment i.e:   Perhaps your square head would be a prime candidate for wasting a m4/3rd image lolololo.

Was meant for T.Jones lolololo

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XVOYAGERX Senior Member • Posts: 1,188
Re: Proffessional interest in Mirrorless/M43 overstated...

Move over T.Jones, let the m4/3 guys in, the format of the future is here accept it, get rid of your `brick` and move to the upcoming superior format, you would be easy to spot at any occasion Jones ha, ha, with ya stooped back and brick hanging round ya neck..... fool!!!  ha, ha, ha!!!!

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XVOYAGERX Senior Member • Posts: 1,188
Re: Proffessional interest in Mirrorless/M43 overstated...
2

topstuff, do some research and ya will see some intelligent professionals `HAVE` moved to m4/3rd and got rid of them bricks round their necks and now walk straight lolololo

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XVOYAGERX Senior Member • Posts: 1,188
Re: My plan ....
1

Superb comment Doug, i have also moved from carrying a Canon Eos 60D BRICK around and now have a m4/3 Panasonic DMC G6, aVASTLY superior camara, the features of the G6 alone blows the 60D out of the water and most other EOS systems, but the fanbois wont admit it lolololo

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al_in_philly Regular Member • Posts: 478
Except that. . .

pinnacle wrote:

If a particular camera system works for you, who cares whether you see any in a particular venue? Go out and enjoy your camera.

Dan

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Life is good.

. . .it does affect both the longevity of a camera system as well as the lenses and accessories offered for that camera system.  I'm not a professional, but I would benefit from more professional quality lenses being made for m4/3--I'm on the waiting list for the P/L 42.5.  I'm also aware that there are no outstanding m4/3 lenses in the 200-300mm range.  More professional interest in m4/3 might provide just such a piece of glass.

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Lindsay D Contributing Member • Posts: 630
Re: Except that. . .

I think an Olympus pro 40-150 f2.8 is in the pipeline for this year.

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XVOYAGERX Senior Member • Posts: 1,188
Re: Proffessional interest in Mirrorless/M43 overstated...
1

itsanewdawn, yes agreed, m4/3rds is still in its infancy, i had a headmaster at school who once told our class, `Big Things Grow Out Of Lttle Things` and basicaly that always is true, i think that in another 5 years it will be a different story, for a start DSLR`s will probably be non-existent in Japan except on special order, elsewhere worldwide i think m4/3rds will be very,very close to sales of DSLRS and 5 years further on m4/3rds `WILL` be the defacto prefered standard and DSLR sales will drop significally and i forsee Canon and Nikon making the move as Sony has done and manufacturing more mirroreless m4/3rds systems and less and less DSLR`s as the market changes to the defacto micro systems!

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al_in_philly Regular Member • Posts: 478
Re: Except that. . .

Lindsay D wrote:

I think an Olympus pro 40-150 f2.8 is in the pipeline for this year.

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Mainly because Olympus is trying to court professional photographers with the E-M1, just as Panasonic is trying to do with the GH3 for pros who also need to do video. Without any potential professional market, it's doubtful that this lens, the soon-to-hit-the-streets P/L 42.5mm f1.2, or the upcoming P/L DG SUMMILUX 15mm / F1.7 would have ever moved beyond their preliminary Autocad files.  Maybe by next year's Auto Show in Detroit, we'll be seeing at least a few more mirrorless cameras being toted around--who knows?

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topstuff Senior Member • Posts: 1,209
Re: Proffessional interest in Mirrorless/M43 overstated...

XVOYAGERX wrote:

itsanewdawn, yes agreed, m4/3rds is still in its infancy, i had a headmaster at school who once told our class, `Big Things Grow Out Of Lttle Things` and basicaly that always is true, i think that in another 5 years it will be a different story, for a start DSLR`s will probably be non-existent in Japan except on special order, elsewhere worldwide i think m4/3rds will be very,very close to sales of DSLRS and 5 years further on m4/3rds `WILL` be the defacto prefered standard and DSLR sales will drop significally and i forsee Canon and Nikon making the move as Sony has done and manufacturing more mirroreless m4/3rds systems and less and less DSLR`s as the market changes to the defacto micro systems!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it seems that the OPPOSITE is happening to your prediction.

m43 sales are FALLING compared to other camera formats, both in Japan and all over the world.

Olympus are losing money.

Panasonic are losing money.

DLSR from Canon and Nikon still dominate.  Mirrorless overall has completely run out of steam and sales are flat including NEX.  But m43 is down.

I rather fear that it will be m43 that will not exist in 10 years in new cameras.

Mind you, by then sophisticated high end cameras will be a specialist thing with a much smaller market.

Mobile phones will just get better and better.

I really do not think it matters though.  All tech gets overtaken or made obsolete in time.

After all, when was the last time you used your VCR?  I would not worry about it.

Lab D Senior Member • Posts: 6,938
Let's clarify this
1

topstuff wrote:

m43 sales are FALLING compared to...

P&S cameras?   SLT cameras?   Those sales are falling and will never come back. M43 sales are flat, but this is after a couple years of massive gains.

Olympus are losing money.

Panasonic are losing money.

Don't forget Sony and just about every Japanese CE maker is losing money.  Cameras are a drop in the bucket and little effect on overall revenue.

DLSR from Canon and Nikon still dominate.

Right they kicked Sony out of the market.  Their SLT/DSLR sales are non existant.

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Skeeterbytes Forum Pro • Posts: 13,480
Re: Proffessional interest in Mirrorless/M43 overstated...

Lindsay D wrote:

I can see you have a poor opinion of professional photographers Rick, but unless you're out there doing it yourself it can be very hard to understand why some photographers choose not to upgrade their equipment as often as others. It can also be very easy to offer criticism from a position of relative comfort, if that is the case. We're all different.

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www.lindsaydobsonphotography.com

Whoa, hang on, where in this thread did I ever denigrate professional photographers? I believe you've misconstrued my remarks. Which is your prerogative, but I want to set the record straight for anybody else.

FWIW I have worked as a staff photographer, freelance photographer and photography instructor, as well as in television production and radio, but not in the digital era.

Cheers,

Rick

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topstuff Senior Member • Posts: 1,209
Re: Let's clarify this
1

Lab D wrote:

topstuff wrote:

m43 sales are FALLING compared to...

P&S cameras? SLT cameras? Those sales are falling and will never come back. M43 sales are flat, but this is after a couple years of massive gains.

Olympus are losing money.

Panasonic are losing money.

Don't forget Sony and just about every Japanese CE maker is losing money. Cameras are a drop in the bucket and little effect on overall revenue.

DLSR from Canon and Nikon still dominate.

Right they kicked Sony out of the market. Their SLT/DSLR sales are non existant.

You are deluded.

DPR is a little bubble on its own.  A few dozen people in the core ( always the same people ) having their little debates.  It means nothing in terms of the global photo gear scene.

Olympus would be finished, dead and buried, if Sony had not rescued them with their enormous balance sheet.  Sony making cameras is a sideline to their sensor business - they can make their own cameras ( where they obviously choose to experiment and try new ideas ) because they know they also have their sensors in lots of other makers cameras too.  Sony wins, either way.

ALL camera makers, from FF to APSC to m43 included, face uncertain futures.

Photpgraphy as a "hobby" may be at the stage where there are simply not enough people , buying enough cameras , to justify the existence of so many different makers.   Most people and the next generation to come, are happy using their smart phones.

I do not think this is a problem for m43 alone.  It is a problem for all camera makers.

Sony will be fine.  They are huge.  And they make more sensors than anyone else anyway.  And have you noticed how much effort they have put into improving their mobile phone offering?  They have all the bases covered.

Canon will be fine too.  They are diversified.

The others?  Who knows.  Give it a decade and the photo industry will not look the same as it does now.

ryan2007 Forum Pro • Posts: 12,001
Re: Proffessional interest in Mirrorless/M43 overstated...

Next time you should approach the photographer and ask. I bet they say to the affect a workhorse, solid can take constant wear.

With that are these photographers using Nikon D7100 or a D4, about a $3,000 body cost alone. If you are getting paid $300/hour for an event you only have one chance to get the shot. Nikon and Canon are extremely well established in what they do so far as cameras and lenses go.

It is like a surgeon using a rusty and bent blade to operate, sure it works but not as well as one that does not.

If Nikon or Canon saw any real potential in mirror-less for them and their Pro's they would have come to market with something substantial.  I am sure Nikon has to have a Full Frame Pro solution and maybe Mirror-less is not yet there enough for them. Whatever it is it has to be both a winner of a camera and a profit maker.

amalric
amalric Forum Pro • Posts: 10,839
Re: Proffessional interest in Mirrorless/M43 overstated...

ryan2007 wrote:

Next time you should approach the photographer and ask. I bet they say to the affect a workhorse, solid can take constant wear.

With that are these photographers using Nikon D7100 or a D4, about a $3,000 body cost alone. If you are getting paid $300/hour for an event you only have one chance to get the shot. Nikon and Canon are extremely well established in what they do so far as cameras and lenses go.

It is like a surgeon using a rusty and bent blade to operate, sure it works but not as well as one that does not.

If Nikon or Canon saw any real potential in mirror-less for them and their Pro's they would have come to market with something substantial. I am sure Nikon has to have a Full Frame Pro solution and maybe Mirror-less is not yet there enough for them. Whatever it is it has to be both a winner of a camera and a profit maker.

It makes me smile that the OP is illiterate. Perhaps people using pro cameras in some country are mostly  illiterate, and conventional too?

Because at 43rumors we see quite a bunch of fashion photogs, using m4/3 and certainly the use is extending to Asia too. S. Huff is also showing quite a few photog. doing geographical documentation with the OM-D.

So what are we claiming exactly? That some illiterate photogs, are using some traditional cameras to shoot some traditional sports in a photographically backward country?

Am.

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