Idiot question alert - 52 focus points

Started Jan 2, 2014 | Questions
NexOffender Regular Member • Posts: 328
Re: Idiot question alert - 52 focus points
1

SergioSpain wrote:

I couldn't have said it better myself. A lot of people like to shoot in manual because it makes them feel more in control of the shot, when in reality, if they're using the camera's meter, all they're doing is making more work for themselves by fiddling with the dials. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as they don't preach to everyone about how manual is the only way to go. Let's face it, the exposure triangle is just not that hard to learn. We may like to think it is to feel smarter, but it's not rocket science.

When shooting in manual I sometimes use the camera's meter as a guide, but it's not like you just fiddle with the dials constantly to keep the meter centered, if you do that you are missing the point of manual and might as well use an auto mode instead.

In many situations the light doesn't change very quickly, but if you put your camera in A mode and point the camera at different things, the shutter speed will change depending on what you are pointing it at, even though the lighting is the same. If you understand how your meter works, you can use it to choose your settings while your camera is pointed at something appropriate and you won't have to change them unless the lighting changes. That way you will get consistent exposures without making more work for yourself fiddling with the exposure compensation dial every time you change between dark and light subjects or backgrounds.

I don't preach to everyone that manual is the only way to go, there are plenty of situations where I use A or S mode, but there are also plenty of situations where manual is the best option. If someone wants to learn how to use manual, I don't think it's right to discourage them. Even if you never use it again, I think most beginners could benefit from learning to shoot manual because it forces you to think about your exposure settings, which should lead to better understanding.

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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,305
Re: Idiot question alert - 52 focus points

Rservello wrote:

SergioSpain wrote:

I couldn't have said it better myself. A lot of people like to shoot in manual because it makes them feel more in control of the shot, when in reality, if they're using the camera's meter, all they're doing is making more work for themselves by fiddling with the dials. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as they don't preach to everyone about how manual is the only way to go. Let's face it, the exposure triangle is just not that hard to learn. We may like to think it is to feel smarter, but it's not rocket science.

If you dial in to the internal spot meter...ok. Does anyone that shoots manual actually do that tho??

Oh come on, you can't be serious with that question... Do you really think people use external meters? Yes, in rare occasions, but I think very few people actually have light meters, so yes, I am convinced that most manual shooters use the camera as meter.

I occasionally glance at the spot meter to see how far off it's saying I am. I'm usually under or over exposed by 3 or 4 stops. Why...because it's measuring direct reflected light.

That's just simply incorrect and I don't believe it, or it does not sound logical. I mean, if you are off by 6-4 stops (+/- 3-4) then why bother at all to try guessing? I don't think you really are doing this because it does not have any added value at all to the images and is totally pointless effort to try to guess. It is like shooting target in the dark or blindfolded. You may get it right now and then, but probability is that you are going to miss big times.

If I point it at someones eye and follow the meter the shot will be horribly over exposed...if I'm metering off a bright spot it will be horribly under exposed. Use an incident meter to get in the proper ball park...then do what you know.

Something must be wrong here. The meter in the camera may be off some times, no meter is perfect, but most of the time it nails the shot just right. I did some quick tests and here are the results. The first shot is totally manual except for the WB.

I used the light meter and set the shutter speed, ISO and the aperture to the value it showed. I measured in the middle of the Xrite color chart.

The other three shots are taken using the camera meter and the three modes, spot, center weight and matrix. All three resulted in the same shutter speed and aperture, I kept the same ISO for all and in PP I only corrected the WB because AWB is one of the things which is never right, especially in an image like this with a lot of blue all over. Of course, metering in spot meter mode is not done in the dead center of the image, there is simply too much black there, but for the center weight and matrix I could just aimed and shot. In other words, if your camera severely under or overexpose then you are doing something wrong or there is something wrong with your camera. While there is a difference between reflected and incident light in some cases, that should NEVER result in huge differences unless you are shooting in specific and difficult conditions, and I can't really think of any situations where Spot meter would cause huge errors unless you meter on very dark or very bright surfaces.

Eyes are normally fine to spot meter from, and the results should be excellent. What people generally make mistakes with is that they focus and recompose, and using spot metering, that will result in random errors because when you change the composition you move the metering point unless you have locked the meter, since in spot meter mode the camera uses the selected AF point. Not only that, but because the image composition is changes, the subject under the focus point is no longer in focus, which is NOT the proper way of using the camera meter. The subject simply MUST be in focus when you meter and you MUST lock the exposure using the AE-L button, otherwise you get random results.

Also...can you really say that when using full auto and taking portrait that a 1/60 f5.8 is REALLY the best setting for the shot??

Well, I can't select f/5.8, but sure, why wouldn't that be the best setting for a portrait? All depends on how you want to shoot the model. There is no right or wrong here. The "old school" says actually that it is optimal, only in these modern age the super thin DOF became popular, but generally speaking, I think only amateurs are using wider than f/5.6 for portraits and in any way, it is just a trend to use as wide as possible.

Anyway, I don't know what you mean by "full auto".

If you understand what app/shutter does to the final image you know that for a portrait you are better off shooting at a lower ap higher shutter to get more DOF.

What is "lower ap"? You mean wider or smaller aperture? Smaller aperture gives you more DOF, wider (is what you call "lower ap"?) gives you less, not more. Personally I never shoot at smaller than f/5.6 if I shoot people. I disagree that more DOF would in any way improve a portrait image. F/5.6 gives you plenty DOF already, so why would you want more?

Maybe you want the same shot, but you want to see the background...then you want a higher higher ap and lower shutter setting.

Of course. Assuming you mean by "higher ap" higher aperture number, i.e. smaller aperture.

What if you want minimal grain, and you know you can pull off a pretty low setting that the camera would say is WAY underexposed. Auto and spot meters don't take aesthetics into account....only 20% grey. Shoot someone in the snow using auto and marvel at the dark grey snow behind them. Shoot someone by candlelight and enjoy that noise field and distracting environment behind them. There is more to shooting manual than just to feel better about yourself.

None of your examples actually demonstrates ANY reason not to use any auto modes. Fact is, I don't think you shoot like you talk... Sorry.

Rservello
Rservello Senior Member • Posts: 1,157
Re: Idiot question alert - 52 focus points

"None of your examples actually demonstrates ANY reason not to use any auto modes. Fact is, I don't think you shoot like you talk... Sorry."

Ok.

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Rservello
Rservello Senior Member • Posts: 1,157
Re: Idiot question alert - 52 focus points

Anyway this discussion is getting pretty stale. I recently got a non-CPU prime and freaking love it. Showed me that the dot focus is not any worse than my old AL-1 and I got done great shots off of that old beast. I think I'm going to just pull the af switch to manual for my af primes and forget it.

 Rservello's gear list:Rservello's gear list
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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,305
Re: Idiot question alert - 52 focus points
1

caspianm wrote:

If one picks up a camera system as a hobby is better off to know the basic principals in old school way than just how to get there easy & fast way.

Yes, I agree that knowledge does not hurt, but it is totally pointless to learn how to process films or make enlargements from film. That has nothing to do with photography, it is a totally different thing called chemistry.

Of course, to learn the basics of how an image is created and what makes a good composition, how different light changes the effects, relationship between light, aperture, shutter speed and ISO, basics of color temperature differences and all that is indeed useful, I never stated otherwise, but just like you don't start learning to drive a car by learning to drive a horse carriage, there is no need to go hundreds of years back in photography. Nothing changed the last hundred years in photography except the media on which images are recorder and the way they are developed and shown. The light and all of its effects are the same as it always was, aperture and shutter works the same way and the color temperature is also the same.

That is the way photography is thought in major universities and photography teaching organizations.

Hopefully major universities also explain why...

It is a choice one has to make for himself as how to go about it imo.

Yes, but it is also ones freedom to chose to use a camera the way one like it. There is no right or wrong here. It is not that you are a better photographer if you know every technical detail about your camera, just like you are not a better photographer if you have spent time in a lab developing images, just like you are not better at math if you know how to use a slide rule. That's a misunderstanding.

A carpenter uses hammer and nail, but he is not less of a carpenter if he uses an electric or hydraulic hammer and uses modern and efficient machines and tools. A photographer uses a camera, he is not less of a photographer if he uses at least some auto modes, and I think EVERYONE uses some all the time. I mean, if you use AF, histogram, AWB, Aperture or Shutter priority or god forbid, Auto ISO then you use some auto modes, and if you are using the light meter of the camera then you are actually using the auto mode as well.

In my opinion, if it is a hobby you do as you like. There is no right or wrong, it is your own choice. If you want to buy a D4, set it to P and Auto ISO, Auto WB and use AF and JPEG OOC all the time then it is up to you. It is your camera, so why should anyone judge you for that choice? Use it as a P&S if you like. The images are still better than out of a real P&S, so why not if you can afford it and you want nicer than average images? I don't know why people need the feel to judge other people all the time. It's their choice, totally up to them. You can say that a certain image would look better if this and that was different, but that's about all. You can't really say that one is wrong the other is right way of using a camera, and you can't really say that ONLY those who always shoot in 100% manual mode know what they are doing. That's just pure nonsense.

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,305
Re: Idiot question alert - 52 focus points

Rservello wrote:

Anyway this discussion is getting pretty stale. I recently got a non-CPU prime and freaking love it. Showed me that the dot focus is not any worse than my old AL-1 and I got done great shots off of that old beast. I think I'm going to just pull the af switch to manual for my af primes and forget it.

That's fine. It is fun to shoot with old manual lenses, been there done that... but decided AF is better. Anyway, if you rely on the green dot and the left/right arrows you rely on the same AF sensors the camera is using to drive the AF motors with, so in fact, you are using an auto mode.

brick33308
brick33308 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,896
couldn't disagree more with SergioSpain

SergioSpain wrote:

Why are you trying to teach yourself to shoot in manual? What do you think you can achieve in manual that you can't achieve in one of the automatic modes in combination with exposure compensation and the various metering modes?

shooting manual is the best way to understand relationship of shutter speed, aperture setting and ISO, and how for example varying them but maintaining the same exposure level can create differences in depth of field, affects on moving water, etc. So if you want no creative control over your photography, then by all means follow SergioSpain's advice and put your camera in pure idiot mode. But if you want to actually learn to be a photographer and use your camera for what it is - simply a tool to implement what your mind (as opposed to the in-camera metering chooses), then keep your camera in manual mode and pay attention to what settings produce what kinds of images.

And along these lines, I've returned to manual focus with a couple of Voigtlander lenses I recently acquired.

Rservello
Rservello Senior Member • Posts: 1,157
Re: Idiot question alert - 52 focus points

Rservello wrote:

Anyway this discussion is getting pretty stale. I recently got a non-CPU prime and freaking love it. Showed me that the dot focus is not any worse than my old AL-1 and I got done great shots off of that old beast. I think I'm going to just pull the af switch to manual for my af primes and forget it.

That's fine. It is fun to shoot with old manual lenses, been there done that... but decided AF is better. Anyway, if you rely on the green dot and the left/right arrows you rely on the same AF sensors the camera is using to drive the AF motors with, so in fact, you are using an auto mode.

Since I can't find anyone to switch my focus screen to a split prism, that's my only option.

 Rservello's gear list:Rservello's gear list
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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,305
Re: Idiot question alert - 52 focus points
2

Rservello wrote:

"None of your examples actually demonstrates ANY reason not to use any auto modes. Fact is, I don't think you shoot like you talk... Sorry."

Ok.

It seems like I hit the nail on the head and that hurts. I also checked you flickr link now and it looks like you are using a lot of auto mode and never want more DOF, only less. All you images are taken wide open (or near) with the 50/1.4G and it looks like you are only using AWB, which is why the yellow color cast in your images, so typical for Nikon.

In other words, your arguments for the manual mode was a bit lame and indeed snobbish, you are not really doing what you are preaching. You are also a bit too young to have ever needed to use film or a slide rule. In fact, I don't think you ever did any of that.

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,305
Re: Idiot question alert - 52 focus points

Truman Prevatt wrote:

Rservello wrote:

SergioSpain wrote:

I couldn't have said it better myself. A lot of people like to shoot in manual because it makes them feel more in control of the shot, when in reality, if they're using the camera's meter, all they're doing is making more work for themselves by fiddling with the dials. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as they don't preach to everyone about how manual is the only way to go. Let's face it, the exposure triangle is just not that hard to learn. We may like to think it is to feel smarter, but it's not rocket science.

If you dial in to the internal spot meter...ok. Does anyone that shoots manual actually do that tho?? I occasionally glance at the spot meter to see how far off it's saying I am. I'm usually under or over exposed by 3 or 4 stops. Why...because it's measuring direct reflected light. If I point it at someones eye and follow the meter the shot will be horribly over exposed...if I'm metering off a bright spot it will be horribly under exposed. Use an incident meter to get in the proper ball park...then do what you know.

Here is the problem - you don't use what is spot meter telling you. Masters from Minor White to Ansel Adams to Fred Pickert used the spot meter. In fact the use of a spot meter was essential to the Zone System developed by White and Adams. The use of the spot meter is to first pre visualize the image you want to result. A meter will give you an exposure that is 18% gray which is Zone V in the Zone system. If you meter a spot that you want as a highlight the exposure will put that spot at middle gray - hence you are under exposed if you use it. If you measure a spot that you want in the shadows say Zone III or Zone VI - and use the exposure the meter gives you, you will be overexposed.

However, if you meter a spot of say a waterfall in the sun and have pre-visulized it to be at Zone 7 maybe up to 8 then you take the exposure it gives you and either increase the shutter speed of close the aperture so that the spot lies at that exposure is -2.5 EV the exposure the meter gives you, you will be correct and depending on the reliably of the spot meter the area will be at the desired exposure.

I'm not sure how good the spot meters are that come in the DSLR's. I have a calibrated digital Pentax 1 degree spot meter. I've had it since 1988. It has gone though many years of service and I last had it calibrated by Pentax a year ago. It gives me much more consistent results than the spot meter in my D800. I expect there is a lot of out of spot light that impacts the spot meter in the DSLR's. If I am going to use a spot meter - I use my Pentax. I have it calibrated (using a constant target) to my D800 so know the conversion from the exposure the Pentax gives me to the D800. When I use it - it is 100% reliable.

Understand the principles - devise your own methods and style.

Exactly. I can't say much about your Pentax, but when I used the D800 spot meter it is accurate, but like you say, one must know how to use it.

SergioSpain Contributing Member • Posts: 538
Re: couldn't disagree more with SergioSpain
2

brick33308 wrote:

SergioSpain wrote:

Why are you trying to teach yourself to shoot in manual? What do you think you can achieve in manual that you can't achieve in one of the automatic modes in combination with exposure compensation and the various metering modes?

shooting manual is the best way to understand relationship of shutter speed, aperture setting and ISO, and how for example varying them but maintaining the same exposure level can create differences in depth of field, affects on moving water, etc. So if you want no creative control over your photography, then by all means follow SergioSpain's advice and put your camera in pure idiot mode. But if you want to actually learn to be a photographer and use your camera for what it is - simply a tool to implement what your mind (as opposed to the in-camera metering chooses), then keep your camera in manual mode and pay attention to what settings produce what kinds of images.

And along these lines, I've returned to manual focus with a couple of Voigtlander lenses I recently acquired.

you're a little bit late to the discussion and we've already covered every side of this argument. But for you to say that auto modes give you no creative control and that people that use an auto mode are idiots sounds extremely snobbish/rude/condescending/etc. to me. Look at all the great stuff Joe McNally produces. And he's not using manual in any of the videos I've seen him in. But hey, if you like to think you have more control by going full manual and that using manual makes you a better photographer then more power to you.

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Rservello
Rservello Senior Member • Posts: 1,157
Re: Idiot question alert - 52 focus points

Rservello wrote:

"None of your examples actually demonstrates ANY reason not to use any auto modes. Fact is, I don't think you shoot like you talk... Sorry."

Ok.

It seems like I hit the nail on the head and that hurts. I also checked you flickr link now and it looks like you are using a lot of auto mode and never want more DOF, only less. All you images are taken wide open (or near) with the 50/1.4G and it looks like you are only using AWB, which is why the yellow color cast in your images, so typical for Nikon.

In other words, your arguments for the manual mode was a bit lame and indeed snobbish, you are not really doing what you are preaching. You are also a bit too young to have ever needed to use film or a slide rule. In fact, I don't think you ever did any of that.

Actually I don't know why it always says auto wb. But that is untrue. I set my kelvin and if there is any warmth it's intentional, as I do pp when needed. I actually have only use AF on any of the shots I uploaded. Of course while you are looking at EXIF data you failed to notice the last few shots I uploaded were 100% manual, even focus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/49019071@N03/11722797943/meta/). Most of the shots I uploaded are mostly in very dark naturally lit settings, therefore open app is my only choice. As for the nail in the head. That was my subtle way of disregarding you. If you didn't like my shots. Well that's your opinion. I like them and enjoy shooting for the love of shooting. Not to be the best or have the most "keepers" but to capture moments and feelings that mean something to me. Do what you love. That's all that matters. No matter the approach. My point was simply that if you want to learn. Learn the basics first. No argument or hard feelings needed.

 Rservello's gear list:Rservello's gear list
Panasonic LX100 Nikon D600 Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D Voigtlander 58mm F1.4 Nokton SL II Rokinon 85mm F1.4 +4 more
olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,305
Re: Idiot question alert - 52 focus points

SergioSpain wrote:

Rservello wrote:

SergioSpain wrote:

I couldn't have said it better myself. A lot of people like to shoot in manual because it makes them feel more in control of the shot, when in reality, if they're using the camera's meter, all they're doing is making more work for themselves by fiddling with the dials. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as they don't preach to everyone about how manual is the only way to go. Let's face it, the exposure triangle is just not that hard to learn. We may like to think it is to feel smarter, but it's not rocket science.

If you dial in to the internal spot meter...ok. Does anyone that shoots manual actually do that tho?? I occasionally glance at the spot meter to see how far off it's saying I am. I'm usually under or over exposed by 3 or 4 stops. Why...because it's measuring direct reflected light. If I point it at someones eye and follow the meter the shot will be horribly over exposed...if I'm metering off a bright spot it will be horribly under exposed. Use an incident meter to get in the proper ball park...then do what you know.

Also...can you really say that when using full auto and taking portrait that a 1/60 f5.8 is REALLY the best setting for the shot?? If you understand what app/shutter does to the final image you know that for a portrait you are better off shooting at a lower ap higher shutter to get more DOF. Maybe you want the same shot, but you want to see the background...then you want a higher higher ap and lower shutter setting. What if you want minimal grain, and you know you can pull off a pretty low setting that the camera would say is WAY underexposed. Auto and spot meters don't take aesthetics into account....only 20% grey. Shoot someone in the snow using auto and marvel at the dark grey snow behind them. Shoot someone by candlelight and enjoy that noise field and distracting environment behind them. There is more to shooting manual than just to feel better about yourself.

Do you really think that most of the people who shoot in manual are using light meters? I gather you do but I seriously doubt most manual shooters do.

In fact, I don't think he has one or uses one either. The fact is that the meter in every modern camera is good enough most of the time and external light meters are actually not very fast to use. They are very nice to use in controlled light situations or in a studio with strobes and when you have a lot of time, but not very convenient in general.

And by auto I don't mean P mode. I mean any of the automatic modes. So I would not shoot a portrait at f5.6 and I would use +EV to shoot a ice hockey or skiing. Again, these conditions could all be perfectly handled in an auto mode. I don't think you need to shoot in manual to learn about depth of field, motion blur, exposure, or just about anything in photography. I've never used manual (except for time lapses) and I've got a good grasp of all these things. But then again maybe I are just exceptionally smart!

I don't know which camera you are using, but I find M very useful in many situations. It gives me the liberty to set shutter speed and aperture and can let the ISO be set by the camera. It is very convenient and gives me full control over the shutter and the DOF. Of course, you don't need to shoot M to understand DOF or motion blur or ISO. Exposure is fairly easily explained to a small child with normal brains. They know the difference between light and darkness and in fact, even the aperture is easily demonstrated to them, so they are perfectly capable of understanding the exposure triangle, which just like you say, is not rocket science at all.

Though... there are plenty people on this forum who don't really know much about it and would need some basic books, but like I said before, it is their choice how they use their camera.

brick33308
brick33308 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,896
Re: couldn't disagree more with SergioSpain

SergioSpain wrote:

brick33308 wrote:

SergioSpain wrote:

Why are you trying to teach yourself to shoot in manual? What do you think you can achieve in manual that you can't achieve in one of the automatic modes in combination with exposure compensation and the various metering modes?

shooting manual is the best way to understand relationship of shutter speed, aperture setting and ISO, and how for example varying them but maintaining the same exposure level can create differences in depth of field, affects on moving water, etc. So if you want no creative control over your photography, then by all means follow SergioSpain's advice and put your camera in pure idiot mode. But if you want to actually learn to be a photographer and use your camera for what it is - simply a tool to implement what your mind (as opposed to the in-camera metering chooses), then keep your camera in manual mode and pay attention to what settings produce what kinds of images.

And along these lines, I've returned to manual focus with a couple of Voigtlander lenses I recently acquired.

you're a little bit late to the discussion and we've already covered every side of this argument. But for you to say that auto modes give you no creative control and that people that use an auto mode are idiots sounds extremely snobbish/rude/condescending/etc. to me. Look at all the great stuff Joe McNally produces. And he's not using manual in any of the videos I've seen him in. But hey, if you like to think you have more control by going full manual and that using manual makes you a better photographer then more power to you.

you are SO missing the point. And the point is CONTROL. If you want to cede control to the camera instead of making your own decisions and what makes sense for the images you want to produce, then as you said, "more power to you".

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,305
Re: Idiot question alert - 52 focus points

Rservello wrote:

Rservello wrote:

"None of your examples actually demonstrates ANY reason not to use any auto modes. Fact is, I don't think you shoot like you talk... Sorry."

Ok.

It seems like I hit the nail on the head and that hurts. I also checked you flickr link now and it looks like you are using a lot of auto mode and never want more DOF, only less. All you images are taken wide open (or near) with the 50/1.4G and it looks like you are only using AWB, which is why the yellow color cast in your images, so typical for Nikon.

In other words, your arguments for the manual mode was a bit lame and indeed snobbish, you are not really doing what you are preaching. You are also a bit too young to have ever needed to use film or a slide rule. In fact, I don't think you ever did any of that.

Actually I don't know why it always says auto wb. But that is untrue. I set my kelvin and if there is any warmth it's intentional, as I do pp when needed. I actually have only use AF on any of the shots I uploaded. Of course while you are looking at EXIF data you failed to notice the last few shots I uploaded were 100% manual, even focus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/49019071@N03/11722797943/meta/). Most of the shots I uploaded are mostly in very dark naturally lit settings, therefore open app is my only choice.

I did not check the EXIF, just guessed based on the wrong WB in the images, which is typical for AWB. Of course, even manual WB can be wrong if incorrectly set.

As for the nail in the head. That was my subtle way of disregarding you.

Ok.

If you didn't like my shots. Well that's your opinion. I like them and enjoy shooting for the love of shooting. Not to be the best or have the most "keepers" but to capture moments and feelings that mean something to me.

I never said a word about not liking your images, but the technique you are using isn't demonstrating the great skill you are preaching. Never the less, like I said, it is your camera, your images and of course, you do as you like.

Do what you love. That's all that matters. No matter the approach. My point was simply that if you want to learn. Learn the basics first. No argument or hard feelings needed.

I definitely agree with that.

Rservello
Rservello Senior Member • Posts: 1,157
Re: Idiot question alert - 52 focus points

olyflyer wrote:

Rservello wrote:

"None of your examples actually demonstrates ANY reason not to use any auto modes. Fact is, I don't think you shoot like you talk... Sorry."

Ok.

It seems like I hit the nail on the head and that hurts. I also checked you flickr link now and it looks like you are using a lot of auto mode and never want more DOF, only less. All you images are taken wide open (or near) with the 50/1.4G and it looks like you are only using AWB, which is why the yellow color cast in your images, so typical for Nikon.

In other words, your arguments for the manual mode was a bit lame and indeed snobbish, you are not really doing what you are preaching. You are also a bit too young to have ever needed to use film or a slide rule. In fact, I don't think you ever did any of that.

Oh, and yes, I prefer shallow depth in portraits.  Sorry.  That's my POV.  Because you don't feel the same doesn't make you more correct.  I would look at some of your shots to make reviews...but it seems the only thing I can find is what you post here...which seems to be nothing but tech demos to prove yourself right in discussions.

 Rservello's gear list:Rservello's gear list
Panasonic LX100 Nikon D600 Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D Voigtlander 58mm F1.4 Nokton SL II Rokinon 85mm F1.4 +4 more
Rservello
Rservello Senior Member • Posts: 1,157
Re: Idiot question alert - 52 focus points

olyflyer wrote:

Rservello wrote:

Rservello wrote:

"None of your examples actually demonstrates ANY reason not to use any auto modes. Fact is, I don't think you shoot like you talk... Sorry."

Ok.

It seems like I hit the nail on the head and that hurts. I also checked you flickr link now and it looks like you are using a lot of auto mode and never want more DOF, only less. All you images are taken wide open (or near) with the 50/1.4G and it looks like you are only using AWB, which is why the yellow color cast in your images, so typical for Nikon.

In other words, your arguments for the manual mode was a bit lame and indeed snobbish, you are not really doing what you are preaching. You are also a bit too young to have ever needed to use film or a slide rule. In fact, I don't think you ever did any of that.

Actually I don't know why it always says auto wb. But that is untrue. I set my kelvin and if there is any warmth it's intentional, as I do pp when needed. I actually have only use AF on any of the shots I uploaded. Of course while you are looking at EXIF data you failed to notice the last few shots I uploaded were 100% manual, even focus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/49019071@N03/11722797943/meta/). Most of the shots I uploaded are mostly in very dark naturally lit settings, therefore open app is my only choice. As for the nail in the head. That was my subtle way of disregarding you. If you didn't like my shots. Well that's your opinion. I like them and enjoy shooting for the love of shooting. Not to be the best or have the most "keepers" but to capture moments and feelings that mean something to me. Do what you love. That's all that matters. No matter the approach. My point was simply that if you want to learn. Learn the basics first. No argument or hard feelings needed.

Ok.

Touché

 Rservello's gear list:Rservello's gear list
Panasonic LX100 Nikon D600 Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D Voigtlander 58mm F1.4 Nokton SL II Rokinon 85mm F1.4 +4 more
Rservello
Rservello Senior Member • Posts: 1,157
Re: Idiot question alert - 52 focus points

olyflyer wrote:

Rservello wrote:

"None of your examples actually demonstrates ANY reason not to use any auto modes. Fact is, I don't think you shoot like you talk... Sorry."

Ok.

It seems like I hit the nail on the head and that hurts. I also checked you flickr link now and it looks like you are using a lot of auto mode and never want more DOF, only less. All you images are taken wide open (or near) with the 50/1.4G and it looks like you are only using AWB, which is why the yellow color cast in your images, so typical for Nikon.

In other words, your arguments for the manual mode was a bit lame and indeed snobbish, you are not really doing what you are preaching. You are also a bit too young to have ever needed to use film or a slide rule. In fact, I don't think you ever did any of that.

Actually I'm checking the EXIF data and the only shots that say AWB is the D90...which is correct. I only started getting really into the more advanced manual settings on the DSLR with my D600. For a long time I didn't understand why my D90 always looked washed out, and it was because I was shooting JPEG with D-Lighting on. All things that were never a concern with film. With the D600 I really dug deep and started using all the features it has. One of the things I did was disable any and all auto features (with the exception of HINR...as I think it's useful and not really an auto feature as much a quality feature). Did you look at the 2 shots that were D90 and assume I use AWB for all my shots? If so, maybe dig a little deeper before making assumptions that I'm full of crap.

Oh, and my 50mm prime is my favorite all purpose lens.  So yes...they are all shot with it.  I will post some 85mm shots when I get some I really like  I have some shots with other lenses from my D90 but I need more FF glass before I can really branch out anymore.

 Rservello's gear list:Rservello's gear list
Panasonic LX100 Nikon D600 Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D Voigtlander 58mm F1.4 Nokton SL II Rokinon 85mm F1.4 +4 more
SergioSpain Contributing Member • Posts: 538
Re: couldn't disagree more with SergioSpain

brick33308 wrote:

SergioSpain wrote:

brick33308 wrote:

SergioSpain wrote:

Why are you trying to teach yourself to shoot in manual? What do you think you can achieve in manual that you can't achieve in one of the automatic modes in combination with exposure compensation and the various metering modes?

shooting manual is the best way to understand relationship of shutter speed, aperture setting and ISO, and how for example varying them but maintaining the same exposure level can create differences in depth of field, affects on moving water, etc. So if you want no creative control over your photography, then by all means follow SergioSpain's advice and put your camera in pure idiot mode. But if you want to actually learn to be a photographer and use your camera for what it is - simply a tool to implement what your mind (as opposed to the in-camera metering chooses), then keep your camera in manual mode and pay attention to what settings produce what kinds of images.

And along these lines, I've returned to manual focus with a couple of Voigtlander lenses I recently acquired.

you're a little bit late to the discussion and we've already covered every side of this argument. But for you to say that auto modes give you no creative control and that people that use an auto mode are idiots sounds extremely snobbish/rude/condescending/etc. to me. Look at all the great stuff Joe McNally produces. And he's not using manual in any of the videos I've seen him in. But hey, if you like to think you have more control by going full manual and that using manual makes you a better photographer then more power to you.

you are SO missing the point. And the point is CONTROL. If you want to cede control to the camera instead of making your own decisions and what makes sense for the images you want to produce, then as you said, "more power to you".

as I said, you are WAY late to this discussion and I'm not going to rehash all my (and other people's) arguments for your benefit. Read all 5 pages' worth of comments. I stand by my argument and I SO do get it.

 SergioSpain's gear list:SergioSpain's gear list
Nikon D700 Nikon D4 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 300mm f/2.8G ED-IF VR +5 more
Truman Prevatt
Truman Prevatt Veteran Member • Posts: 7,800
Re: Idiot question alert - 52 focus points

caspianm wrote:

If one picks up a camera system as a hobby is better off to know the basic principals in old school way than just how to get there easy & fast way. That is the way photography is thought in major universities and photography teaching organizations. It is a choice one has to make for himself as how to go about it imo.

I picked up photography in 1969 in my first year of graduate school as a way to relax and clear my mind. After I finished my thesis and got my degree and got a job, I decided to take a night course at a local art institute. I went in to talk with them and about auditing the course and the department chair told me why not just take it for credit - you might need it you might not you will never know. Since all of my other course work through my 8 years of higher education (liberal arts courses) would counted toward a degree I decided I might asget a degree in fine arts. I took her advice and I'm glad I did because it provided a wonderful outlet from the stresses of a job and everyday life.

There is a lot more to photography than pointing and shooting a camera. Here I am talking primarily about fine arts photography but Ansel Adams once said that most commercial photographers could learn a lot about how to improve their work through the study of fine arts photography. Don't get me wrong many commercial photographers produce some wonder art. Some work both on assignment and produce work for galleries. However, I would expect many commercial photographers are too busy making a living to have the time.

Like any art form, photography is an art form with a rich history and a wide breath of disciplines and styles. In painting one can use oil, acrylic, water colors, or actually combinations of some or all on paper or canvas. One can develop into an abstract painter, a neo-cubist, a neo-impressionist or any other hole you want to put an artist in. An painter can paint any subject from a Campbell soup can to pristine landscapes. The painter can use fine strokes with a fine brush, broad strokes with a larger brush or slather the paint on with a knife - what ever is in his/her vision and if he/she has the skill to executed properly and communicate his/her vision it might become famous or it might not.

Photography is no different. There are many different tools one can use. In the days of digital - it is no different - people still use film in formats from 35 mm up to 8x10 view cameras. People still produce stunning work while dragging an 8x10 view camera around in the outdoors, going under the black cloth and capturing their vision. The work of Clyde Butcher is amazing (http://www.clydebutcher.com) is the work of Bruce Barnbaum (http://www.barnbaum.com/barnbaum/Home.html) as is the work of the man who turned out to be my advisor in art school, M. Richard Kirstel who is diseased now. I remember my final project - for my graduation. He gave me a landscape assignment. The location was the Baltimore City landfill.

When a colleague and I set up a photo lab and courses for a large Army base we all the students in the beginning class a TLR for use during the class. That's all they used so they could forget the camera and learning and frankly obsessing over the equipment to learning and understanding the underlying principles of photography. Today the equipment has changed but the good art schools and university art departments that teach photography use the same concept.

People use digital - that is a wonder choice.  However, no camera nor software editing program will not give you the skill to develop you vision and express your vision to the fullest or to get the most our of your investment in your camera.

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Truman
www.pbase.com/tprevatt

 Truman Prevatt's gear list:Truman Prevatt's gear list
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