The future for Fuji cameras

Started Dec 31, 2013 | Discussions
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oldtimer29 New Member • Posts: 2
Re: The future for Fuji cameras
7

While I think that the issue has been quite overworked by the forum, I would like to add a little personal perspective to the discussion. More years ago than I would prefer to remember, I had three Leica bodies and a fair number of lenses. I had a 3F and a 3G body as well as a 3M. The lenses I used were both screw on with adapters when used on the M mount as well as M mount lenses. All of this old stuff was kept and used by me up until the 80s when it just became too heavy to to carry around. I used that equipment for a very long time because it both handled well and gave such good results that there was no reason to look elsewhere. Most importantly, experience thought me how to set that equipment in most every situation I faced, without regard to light meters etc.

I feel similarly about my X1 and prime lenses. If fuji went out of business today I would feel no different about the camera and lenses I currently use. They meet my needs beautifully and their ability to continue to do that is not dependent on fuji continuing to support or  "upgrade" it's firmware. Too many are interested in being on the front edge of technology that they forget that the most important technology of the camera is the photographer herself. It takes years to learn handle your camera and lenses instinctively. Rather than looking for the newest bell and whistle, take the time to know you camera and lenses. Get to just know what your exposure is for the conditions you are facing and what the lens you have on sees from the position you are in as a matter of instinct and experience. As you are raising the camera to your eye, have the experience of knowing how to make adjustments faster than than the autofocus and to set your exposure more accurately than autoexposure can do. Learn to have fun with these lovely retro cameras. I am having a great time and look forward to living with this equipment for a long time, tho at 84, it may not be that long.

Have fun everyone and take good pictures. Remember, the most important equipment you have is the photographer. The most important up firmware you need to upgrade is that of the photographer himself, and you, not fuji, control that one.

Chris G Hughes Regular Member • Posts: 391
Re: The future for Fuji cameras

They're all over Hulu+. They run ads for the X-M1 there like crazy.

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dark13star
dark13star Senior Member • Posts: 1,583
Re: The future for Fuji cameras

Graham Hill wrote:

That's exactly the problem. Fujifilm needs to get out to the masses. The enthusiasts will find the X cameras without ads.

But the masses are the ones opting for cell phone cameras over real cameras, or are you differentiating another level, like "hobbyist" that will still look for more than a cell phone?

I actually think that Fuji needs to focus on the enthusiast. The masses will either use cell phones or buy the cheapest thing they can get. They could build a strong business among enthusiasts if they have high enough margins on their products. Market share is irrelevant, but profitability is essential in the long run.

Rich

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Graham Hill Senior Member • Posts: 1,355
Re: The future for Fuji cameras

tecnoworld wrote:

It's a very odd market the one where even eos-m sold better than fuji x, which is imo the best mirrorless system to date.

Sometimes it's just the way products are perceived. I have many friends that would buy a canon 70d over a fuji x-e2 just because they think the former is 'pro' and the latter is a step up from 'p&s'.

And, believe me, most customers think this way alas.

That's what I wrote in a previous post:  Fujifilm has to have the whole package.  They have some of the finest cameras in the market, but they have to market them and distribute them as well as, or even better, than Canon and Nikon.

It is in these last two areas that Fujifilm sadly falls down hard at.

tecnoworld
tecnoworld Veteran Member • Posts: 6,942
Re: The future for Fuji cameras

True. And sometimes those areas, along with wom and customers' perceptions and biases are more important than the 'real' quality of a product, to make it succesfull or not.

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gustabod Senior Member • Posts: 1,446
Re: The future for Fuji cameras

saw that too. It will be a shame if only the slr makers remain, this will reduce innovation overall, but most social snaps are taken with a smart phone. Oh well, there's always Leica.

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Chris Dodkin
Chris Dodkin Veteran Member • Posts: 6,984
Re: The future for Fuji cameras

Ralph McKenzie wrote:

Interesting you should mention the Instax. Its the only Fuji camera that receives any media coverage, in retail flyers or television advertising. You never see a Fuji advert on TV pertaining to anything other than that camera and occasionally the S8400 when its on special from a retail chain.

Otherwise Fuji advertising is no existent.

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I get more consistent hits on my Instax shots on a daily basis, than any other images - interesting to see how much traction Instax has.

I like my Mini 90 - it's a satisfying experience to have the image in your hand so quickly

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Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 16,369
Re: The future for Fuji cameras

57even wrote:

Reuters article fails to mention the fact that smaller companies have minimal penetration in the US compared to the big three. Only reasons SLRs are still dominant are:

1. Price - entry level prices for DSLRs are still low compared to mirrorless. Fuji's low cost entry level is a bid to fight off that difference.

2. Brand - most people only know Nikon and Canon in the camera market, and they push SLRs so that's what people buy.

Nothing to do with a preference for the OVF? Faster AF and something called 'tracking'? Great handling and plenty of body controls on a non-cramped body?

Graham Hill Senior Member • Posts: 1,355
Re: The future for Fuji cameras

Chris Dodkin wrote:

Ralph McKenzie wrote:

Interesting you should mention the Instax. Its the only Fuji camera that receives any media coverage, in retail flyers or television advertising. You never see a Fuji advert on TV pertaining to anything other than that camera and occasionally the S8400 when its on special from a retail chain.

Otherwise Fuji advertising is no existent.

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Love dat Fuji
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Fuji HS20EXR
Fuji HS10,
Pentax sf7, Pentax zx-50

I get more consistent hits on my Instax shots on a daily basis, than any other images - interesting to see how much traction Instax has.

Instax is the only film you can find in no nphotography stores here in China. It's very easy to find and is VERY popular. Interestingly, Fujifilm's quarterly report presentation mentioned INSTAX as a growth area in 2014. That was the ONLY photography related business that got mentioned in the growth slides.

I like my Mini 90 - it's a satisfying experience to have the image in your hand so quickly

Instant film is HIGHLY addictive. I've shot a few hundred pics with my kids and I never tire of watching the image appear. I hope Fujifilm makes a Neo 210 or something like that. The mini's just a bit too small for me.

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John Gellings Senior Member • Posts: 2,081
Re: The future for Fuji cameras

Graham Hill wrote:

IKB wrote:

It's not rankings that matters, it is profitability. If Fujifilm can make money, then why abandon these products?

Have you seen Fujifilm's financials? There is no profitability at all in their camera division. Nothing but losses.

Are they on track?

No, they are going backwards. Losses increased by 260% last quarter, year on year.

Only they know,

No, we do, as the documents are public.

in the meantime enjoy the products.

Absolutely.

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Malcy
----------------

It seems strange that Fuji sold way more X cameras than it thought it would (they were shocked at the initial reception of the X100), yet isn't making cash... how is that possible?

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Graham Hill Senior Member • Posts: 1,355
Re: The future for Fuji cameras

John Gellings wrote:

Graham Hill wrote:

IKB wrote:

It's not rankings that matters, it is profitability. If Fujifilm can make money, then why abandon these products?

Have you seen Fujifilm's financials? There is no profitability at all in their camera division. Nothing but losses.

Are they on track?

No, they are going backwards. Losses increased by 260% last quarter, year on year.

Only they know,

No, we do, as the documents are public.

in the meantime enjoy the products.

Absolutely.

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Malcy
----------------

It seems strange that Fuji sold way more X cameras than it thought it would (they were shocked at the initial reception of the X100), yet isn't making cash... how is that possible?

Well, the collapse of their compact camera sales was not yet underway while the X100 was in development, so that can explain a bit.

Yet now that the X camera line up is mostly filled out, and there are many lenses for sale, the last year saw losses continue to increase even as revenue went up.   The positive spin on this is that Fujifilm is buying a customer base by all these amazing sale prices that you see every few months.  Lenses like the 14mm and 23mm have been offered for hundreds off their original price.

I dont see how this can work because it is not like lenses get re-bought over and over and over again.

These are desperate times for many camera manufacturers.

57even Forum Pro • Posts: 10,235
Re: The future for Fuji cameras
1

Midwest wrote:

57even wrote:

Reuters article fails to mention the fact that smaller companies have minimal penetration in the US compared to the big three. Only reasons SLRs are still dominant are:

1. Price - entry level prices for DSLRs are still low compared to mirrorless. Fuji's low cost entry level is a bid to fight off that difference.

2. Brand - most people only know Nikon and Canon in the camera market, and they push SLRs so that's what people buy.

Nothing to do with a preference for the OVF? Faster AF and something called 'tracking'? Great handling and plenty of body controls on a non-cramped body?

No. Most first time users or buyers of entry level SLRs generally have no idea, and they are quite used to a compact or smart-phone so unlike you they don't care about EVFs.

The OVF on entry level (and most APSC) SLRs is pretty awful anyway. I know several people who bought an EVF camera because is was much brighter and easier to see, plus you have all the information in the VF and you don't have to hold it at arm's length to do video.

I am completely OK using an EVF alongside my D800, and I don't mind it in the least. It's extremely convenient being able to preview so much information (WB, exposure etc) before firing the shutter, and it's much easier to manual focus (magnified image etc).

AF is also far more accurate and it's no longer slow by comparison. As for tracking, most entry level SLR cameras can't track a three legged tortoise so I don't see that makes any difference.

But if you don't know you will buy a Canon or Nikon SLR because that's what everyone else does.

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(unknown member) Contributing Member • Posts: 578
Re: The future for Fuji cameras
1

57even wrote:

LWS2013 wrote:

mooshoepork wrote:

Not trying to troll...

But given the recent sales reports over at fuji rumors, does anyone else worry about the potential for Fuji to throw in the towel and abandon this venture?

Having only sold 700,000...seems really low.

I love my x100s and x-e2, but I'm worried that if they continue to not make money they'll withdraw.

It's a tough market to crack, and I hope they fair better in 2014.

Thoughts?

If Fuji drop the X sensor and use a bayer one instead then they have a future, at the moment a great camera and lens systems is being ruined by the X sensor

No. It isn't.

Yes, it is, the X sensor is the biggest arguing point of the whole system, some like it and some don't but many put up with it because they like the cameras and lenses.

Alessandro63 Contributing Member • Posts: 852
Re: The future for Fuji cameras

Fuji must get on because, on the contrary, their software department wouldn't have room to stick their bugs in.

Just some happy new year's humour...

Chris Dodkin
Chris Dodkin Veteran Member • Posts: 6,984
Re: The future for Fuji cameras

Agree - a WIDE version on the Neo Classic would be ideal - I'd buy one

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Absolutic
Absolutic Veteran Member • Posts: 5,157
Re: The future for Fuji cameras
3

I just want them to release the 56/1.2 and then the 135mm full frame equivalent.  I am not invested in Fuji stock.

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NTNphoto Regular Member • Posts: 236
Re: The future for Fuji cameras
1

57even wrote:

LWS2013 wrote:

mooshoepork wrote:

Not trying to troll...

But given the recent sales reports over at fuji rumors, does anyone else worry about the potential for Fuji to throw in the towel and abandon this venture?

Having only sold 700,000...seems really low.

I love my x100s and x-e2, but I'm worried that if they continue to not make money they'll withdraw.

It's a tough market to crack, and I hope they fair better in 2014.

Thoughts?

If Fuji drop the X sensor and use a bayer one instead then they have a future, at the moment a great camera and lens systems is being ruined by the X sensor

No. It isn't.

Yes, it is, the X sensor is the biggest arguing point of the whole system, some like it and some don't but many put up with it because they like the cameras and lenses.

Yup I agree. I absolutely love using my fuji x camera. I like pretty much everything about it except the processing issues that X trans brings. x trans isn't an issue so much when you're editing a handful of images here and there, but if you have to do more than 50 at a time for events or weddings it is a pain and slows things down. I can live with the processing stuff for general photo needs, but it's too time consuming when trying to meet a deadline. As much as I want the 23mm and 56mm I'm holding to see how the sensor stuff shakes out.

Ming Thein articulated it way better than me in his X-E2 preview a month ago.

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Graham Hill Senior Member • Posts: 1,355
Re: The future for Fuji cameras
3

57even wrote:

No. Most first time users or buyers of entry level SLRs generally have no idea, and they are quite used to a compact or smart-phone so unlike you they don't care about EVFs.

The OVF on entry level (and most APSC) SLRs is pretty awful anyway. I know several people who bought an EVF camera because is was much brighter and easier to see, plus you have all the information in the VF and you don't have to hold it at arm's length to do video.

I am completely OK using an EVF alongside my D800, and I don't mind it in the least. It's extremely convenient being able to preview so much information (WB, exposure etc) before firing the shutter, and it's much easier to manual focus (magnified image etc).

AF is also far more accurate and it's no longer slow by comparison. As for tracking, most entry level SLR cameras can't track a three legged tortoise so I don't see that makes any difference.

LOL!! I suggest that not only can entry level SLR's track moving objects well, but that an (almost) *10 year* old DSLR* can outperform today's mirrorless.

My images, shot from a ancient Canon 350D. These planes are going 400-500 mph (a bit faster than your average 3 legged tortoise LOL!!) and were low flying and shooting out from behind tall buildings from unknown areas. I could not tell from what direction they would appear (they weree moving so fast that the sounds were heard only after the planes shot by you) and had extremely short times to spot them, aim and fire off a shot.

But if you don't know you will buy a Canon or Nikon SLR because that's what everyone else does.

Joel Stern
Joel Stern Forum Pro • Posts: 10,915
To TransX or not?

I was talking to a Fuji technical guy at Fuji today as a friend has a new 23mm lens and could not figure out how to make it into AF as it was MF only.  So the problem was solved and we got to talking and I mentioned DPR and the fact that many people think the TransX is a problem, it certainly has been a challenge for many in PP.... He told me to wait as you never know what will come up, but that being said, it means little at this point in time, but time will tell. I think without the TransX for many a Fuji XE would be much more attractive just because it is a commitment in a system that can change in a minute and I think will. But then any system will, it happened to me already with Ricoh's GXR, no more lenses from Ricoh just the M mount and any adapters for other than M lenses.... Not what I bought into (I thought).... at least with Fuji the glass will remain and that glass sure seems to be very good, well that is an understatement.

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Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 16,369
Re: The future for Fuji cameras
1

57even wrote:

Midwest wrote:

57even wrote:

Reuters article fails to mention the fact that smaller companies have minimal penetration in the US compared to the big three. Only reasons SLRs are still dominant are:

1. Price - entry level prices for DSLRs are still low compared to mirrorless. Fuji's low cost entry level is a bid to fight off that difference.

2. Brand - most people only know Nikon and Canon in the camera market, and they push SLRs so that's what people buy.

Nothing to do with a preference for the OVF? Faster AF and something called 'tracking'? Great handling and plenty of body controls on a non-cramped body?

No. Most first time users or buyers of entry level SLRs generally have no idea, and they are quite used to a compact or smart-phone so unlike you they don't care about EVFs.

The OVF on entry level (and most APSC) SLRs is pretty awful anyway. I know several people who bought an EVF camera because is was much brighter and easier to see

I started with a Canon Rebel and moved to a 7D. While the 7D's OVF is certainly better than my old T3i and XSi (600D and 450D) had, I never once felt that they were too small, dim, hard to see. Having spent a lot of time in the Rebel / XXXD forum I recall no specific posts or threads where people had a hard time using one of those OVF's. I can say for certain that I've seen some more expensive EVF cameras with threads about those viewfinders being hard to see on sunny days (I'm talking EVF, not the LCD), too bright when you put them up to your eye when your eyes are used to darkness, and other complaints.

Everyone has their preferences, I respect that, but speaking at least for Canon's entry level DSLR's I don't think the OVF can be called 'awful' by any stretch of a sober imagination.

, plus you have all the information in the VF and you don't have to hold it at arm's length to do video.

Of course you can't do video through an OVF anyhow on a DSLR, you have to use the LCD. Frankly I've done so little video that I can't recall what information Canon displays about the video on the LCD.

I am completely OK using an EVF alongside my D800, and I don't mind it in the least. It's extremely convenient being able to preview so much information (WB, exposure etc) before firing the shutter, and it's much easier to manual focus (magnified image etc).

Again, we all have our preferences. I never found that I was able to really judge white balance or other things well enough in an EVF for that to be a benefit to me. I suppose it depends on how quickly one must make a shot; you have plenty of time to examine WB etc. if shooting a landscape but not if shooting kids' sports. But if your eyes are used to a cloudy day the white balance may look more acceptable in an EVF than it is going to later on when your eyes get used to other light. As for manual focus, you certainly have a point, but I can't manually focus as well as the camera can autofocus 95% of the time and it takes me a lot longer. Hence I virtually never manually focus. Again, whether shooting landscapes or action it makes a difference how handy this is. What you need and what I need are two different things and that's fine by me.

AF is also far more accurate and it's no longer slow by comparison. As for tracking, most entry level SLR cameras can't track a three legged tortoise so I don't see that makes any difference.

Phase detect AF has been a lot faster than contrast detect since day one and still remains that way. In really good circumstances CDAF has gotten much quicker, but it still can't track action as good as my 2008 Canon Rebel did, and once the light levels drop, CDAF slows way down. It does make a difference, unless you're only shooting relatively static things like landscapes or flowers and under favorable conditions. I believe it was the Nikon 1 that added some PD sensors on the imaging sensor and got a much faster AF out of the deal, but when the light level drops it has to switch back to contrast detect and is then much slower again.

But if you don't know you will buy a Canon or Nikon SLR because that's what everyone else does.

Perhaps "everyone" buys Canon and Nikon not just because 'that's what everyone else does' but because of their reputation of making good cameras.

It's not the DSLR crowd I see in the forums excitedly posting "When is the new model coming out - I'm on the BH preorder list, I can't wait - Just found out Amazon is going to get theirs a week sooner, cancelled my BH order, got on the Amazon list - I paid the full list price in advance but I don't care - does anyone have any links to sample photos - UPS tracking shows my new XYZ will be delivered this Friday, can't wait - etc. etc. " I see a lot of that for other types of cameras though, certainly a lot more than I ever have for DSLR's.

Everyone pursues photography their own way and if it makes someone happy then I have no problem with it. I just make the occasional observation about what I notice. To each their own.

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