Is this photo noisy or normal according to you (A77+SAL70300G SSM)

Started Dec 27, 2013 | Discussions
fzrTom Senior Member • Posts: 2,276
Re: Is this photo noisy or normal according to you (A77+SAL70300G SSM)

It's clearly very (too much) noisy to me.

I watched foto taken with my A33 at ISO 400 and no noise at all in the sky without any denoising filtering : I have a blue clear sky.

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TomHJ Regular Member • Posts: 188
Re: Is this photo noisy or normal according to you (A77+SAL70300G SSM)

kartikjayaraman wrote:

I would like to know your opinion: Shot 270mm ISO400 1/500 s 24MP in RAW, then cropped to 3076x2051.

Original:

Sharpening 55 applied in Lightroom and Luminance Noise reduction of 20 applied.

If these are RAW, you need to play more with your sharpening and noise reduction.  With my a77, for ISO 200, I start with Sharpening (Amt: 43; Radius: 1.6; Detail 22; Masking 15) and Noise Reduction (Luminance: 33; Detail: 50; Contrast: 0; and Color: 26, Detail: 50, Smoothness: 50).  For ISO 800, I start with Sharpening (Amt: 57; Radius: 1.6; Detail: 21; Masking: 26) and Noise Reduction (Luminance: 55; Detail: 50; Contrast: 0; Color: 36; Detail: 60; Smoothness: 50).  Your mileage may vary, but I don't think you've taken full advantage of Lightroom's tools.

For even finer control, I go into Neat Image.  But before that, play some more with Lightroom's controls for noise reduction and sharpening.  From what I can tell, you've only scratched the surface....

kartikjayaraman
OP kartikjayaraman Contributing Member • Posts: 563
Re: Is this photo noisy or normal according to you (A77+SAL70300G SSM)

texascbx wrote:

I sold my A77 after two years and now have an A99. So I know a little about noise and the 77. Usually, you will get a good bit of noise in a blue sky.

Thanks, are you saying the blue sky noise is with the A77 only or both the A77 and A99?

texascbx wrote:

Another thing is you can go to 2000 ISO generally and get pretty good results. I think most of your problems are the lens needs to be micro focus adjusted. And get a demo copy of Photo Ninja and try it. It's really hard to beat the noise reduction in that program.

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I will adjust the lenses, need to read up how to do that. With my Minolta 50mm lens the noise at ISO < 400 is a lot lower, but the images are soft too, so that might also have to do with micro adjusting the lenses. Will give it a shot, thanks for your input.

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OP kartikjayaraman Contributing Member • Posts: 563
Re: Is this photo noisy or normal according to you (A77+SAL70300G SSM)

fzrTom wrote:

It's clearly very (too much) noisy to me.

I watched foto taken with my A33 at ISO 400 and no noise at all in the sky without any denoising filtering : I have a blue clear sky.

I have compared a few other photos too, other than the ones from the A77 there is no noise in a clear blue sky from any of them. If there are any A99 comparisons as well, I would be interested to know that.

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dlkeller Veteran Member • Posts: 6,922
Re: Is this photo noisy or normal according to you (A77+SAL70300G SSM)

1/200 at 50 mm shouldn't be a problem, however, if you are a little careless in technique you still can get camera motion blur with this as 1/200 isn't a real motion stopper.  My guess is the focus point was off somehow, maybe focusing on the sky instead of the tree.

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Dave

sybersitizen Forum Pro • Posts: 10,913
The camera is a mismatch for you

kartikjayaraman wrote:

... looking at Brian's A65 photos 3200 ISO, I think I might have gotten one of the noisy A77s out there.

There is no such thing as 'one of the noisy A77s out there'. They are all the same, assuming the same firmware level, the latest being v1.07. You simply did not do your homework before or after buying. Notice that Brian employs a shooting method that you don't like, and is not showing his examples at full resolution. Two cardinal rules of happy A77 ownership are 1) know that the camera is not a low light / high ISO machine, and 2) don't bother pixel peeping at 24mp resolution. We could have told you that if you had asked earlier. Many, many people who understand those rules and work with them end up getting wonderful results from the A77 (or A65), and can enjoy it for its strengths. Other people will just have to buy something else.

doctorxring Senior Member • Posts: 1,341
Re: Is this photo noisy or normal according to you (A77+SAL70300G SSM)

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I think the noise is OK.  You just missed his head on the focus and got the body.

I shot this pic late this afternoon of a similar size bird at 400 ISO with my A65 and my 70300G.  I shoot only jpg.

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kartikjayaraman
OP kartikjayaraman Contributing Member • Posts: 563
Re: Is this photo noisy or normal according to you (A77+SAL70300G SSM)

That's a very nice shot doctorxring - the color is amazing and focus is spot on

Did you micro adjust your lens? Also did you use Spot focus or Wide area focus for this shot? I am assuming you have turned DRO off.

One more thing - Can you try to crop to about 50% and see if you see any noise? The photo I posted was cropped a bit.

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doctorxring Senior Member • Posts: 1,341
Re: Is this photo noisy or normal according to you (A77+SAL70300G SSM)

kartikjayaraman wrote:

That's a very nice shot doctorxring - the color is amazing and focus is spot on

Did you micro adjust your lens? Also did you use Spot focus or Wide area focus for this shot? I am assuming you have turned DRO off.

One more thing - Can you try to crop to about 50% and see if you see any noise? The photo I posted was cropped a bit.

Thanks KKJ.  Focus was very close to being just right.  It's so hard with these little guys.

I used Manual focus.  This was shot from a tripod with a remote shutter release.  Full zoom 300mm (450mm equivalent).  DRO was off.  I had the camera set to 400 ISO, not Auto ISO. Shutter priority.  I adjust the shutter speed and watch the Live View on the LCD or the EVF.   The A65 does not have micro adjust.  But I've never had a problem with the AF being off on this lens or my 1650.  I do use Manual focus when I can though with the focus peaking ON most of the time.  I love the 70300G lens.  I had a 70400G lens before, but I sold it for two reasons.  Too heavy for hand held and the bokeh was extremely harsh a lot of the time.  I tell you straight up.  Overall, I like this lens much better.

The first image was cropped a little already, probably about 15 percent or so.  I did a 50% crop on the same file for you --

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kartikjayaraman
OP kartikjayaraman Contributing Member • Posts: 563
Re: Is this photo noisy or normal according to you (A77+SAL70300G SSM)

Thanks for the info. Maybe I should start using my tripod more often Also your photos are pretty much noise free at that crop, that's great.

Even I love my 70-300G SSM lens and yes I too bought it as it looks much like a 'regular' lens and not those huge bazookas So far the 70-300G has served me very well too. With the hood on, it looks super cool, doesn't it

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doctorxring Senior Member • Posts: 1,341
Re: Is this photo noisy or normal according to you (A77+SAL70300G SSM)

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Yes it does.

It kind of weaponizes it a bit.  

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kartikjayaraman
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Re: The camera is a mismatch for you

sybersitizen wrote:

kartikjayaraman wrote:

... looking at Brian's A65 photos 3200 ISO, I think I might have gotten one of the noisy A77s out there.

1) know that the camera is not a low light / high ISO machine

I was very well aware of that and am ready to use my flash at low light. However, look at this photo at ISO 100. Am I doing something wrong here? This was cropped to about a third: I can see noise in the sky details. Of course this can be corrected in Lightroom/Topaz/NN.

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kartikjayaraman
OP kartikjayaraman Contributing Member • Posts: 563
Re: The camera is a mismatch for you

That was RAW, Reset to defaults in Lightroom, only cropped and exported as 80% JPEG.

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brian14478
brian14478 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,703
Re: The camera is a mismatch for you
1

sybersitizen wrote:

that the camera is not a low light / high ISO machine, and 2) don't bother pixel peeping at 24mp resolution. We could have told you that if you had asked earlier.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52715877

He kind of did.  I stayed out of it because of the latest high iso promoting of the a77.  Every sample or user experience  was disregarded/countered relentlessly.  Where was everyone when lim shot with the a77 and didn't like the noise it produced??

Many, many people who understand those rules and work with them end up getting wonderful results from the A77 (or A65), and can enjoy it for its strengths. Other people will just have to buy something else.

+1

Well put.

Have a great new year-brian

dlkeller Veteran Member • Posts: 6,922
Re: The camera is a mismatch for you

Why don't you use the noise reduction function in your LR processing?  I really just am not seeing noise that I would be concerned about.  I think you should stop worrying about miniscule noise, which can easily be removed in PP, and concentrate on picture taking skills such as proper focus and good composition.

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Dave

K E Hoffman
K E Hoffman Veteran Member • Posts: 5,103
Re: The camera is a mismatch for you

Can you post some RAWs to a SkyDrive or something?

I would like to play with them... I was shooting ISO 1600-2550 in a church last week with my A77

And My final shots felt pretty good to me.  For the use I had for them but not 1:1

But there is an interesting pattern with the newer cameras they get more out of high ISO.. even A77 is better than A700 un upper ranges..BUT we seem to pick up more noise at lower ISO. Its there in the sky.. if you are shooting in bright day looking for the smoothest skies.. try ISO 50.  Small loss of DR but it seems to help push the noise down..

That... said  You only mentioned Sharpening and Luminance values..

Any image you feel a need to add luminance NR to.. the sharpening needs to be adjusted beyond the master setting...

In radius, Detail, and masking.

Play around with them a bit

Masking should go up so you are not sharpening the noise or its just a war with your image in the crossfire between the Sharpening and NR and you get WORMS.

There is soo much detail in the 24 MP images I tend to lower the radius, and detail, up the masking then play with the sharpening level because we are really looking for the edges... not pixel by pixel sharpening which brings up noise and detail final printing and scaling will remove anyway.

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K.E.H. >> Shooting between raindrops in WA<<

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sybersitizen Forum Pro • Posts: 10,913
Re: The camera is a mismatch for you

brian14478 wrote:

sybersitizen wrote:

Two cardinal rules of happy A77 ownership are 1) know that the camera is not a low light / high ISO machine, and 2) don't bother pixel peeping at 24mp resolution. We could have told you that if you had asked earlier.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52715877

He kind of did.

I guess he did... but he also started the thread by saying 'I actually almost decided on the A77 but backed out because I dont want to spend so much money and still get noisy photos at ISO400 (I rarely shoot over ISO 3200 but definitely shoot at 800 and 1600).' So he was already forewarned and wary, and only discounted prices actually swayed him.

I stayed out of it because of the latest high iso promoting of the a77. Every sample or user experience was disregarded/countered relentlessly.

One difficulty here is that there is no consensus about what constitutes objectionable noise, or how much extra effort, if any, might be acceptable to reduce it. I myself have no issue using my recently purchased A77 at ISO 1600, or higher if needed... but, similar to you, I like shooting JPEGs at 12mp, which is not what everyone wants to do. Another difficulty is that noise observed at 100% viewing of a 24mp image typically means next to nothing in terms of the real-life uses of most photographs... but many will still insist on peering at it and fretting over it. I really don't get that.

Constant discussions about this one factor over everything else have become extremely tiresome, so if I involve myself in them at all, my inclination at this point will be to drive noise-obsessed users away from the A77 and be done with it.

Where was everyone when lim shot with the a77 and didn't like the noise it produced??

I've read that several times and still don't understand it. Who or what is lim?

K E Hoffman
K E Hoffman Veteran Member • Posts: 5,103
Example: Taming A77 blue Sky ISO 800 in Lightroom

When I got my new Sigma 17-70 "C" Lens..[Which I love] I did some quick shots up at a tree to test it. This is 17mm F4.5 1/5000 ISO 800 [Wasn't paying attention to ISO.. or probably would have not gotten this shot]

Here is a Series of results from the same image.

FF shots are scaled to 11x14inch 96DPI (depending on your screen DP should be about 10x13-11x14 on screen ) Which is a pretty decent print size..

And Crops made at 1:2 in light room

When I exported I set JPG to 100% quality for this test. And NO sharpening at all in the export.

You have FF and Crops with Sharpening/NR Turned off and the same with my settings where I consider the sky will print smooth and the tree detail will be sharp.

This is the key.. If you shoot a sharp lens etc. You don't need much sharpening if any.. So the Sharpening with right settings is working with the NR to preserve the detail. IF your lens needs help than you are now sharpening for both lens and against NR.

But again this gets down to the "How bad is the noise in real use" discussion.

The images scaled for 11x14 size on Monitor with NO NR and with the PP to make the sky smoother are almost identical and might even print close than that.. One of the problems with the LR and other NR PP models is they do it at 1:1 and so odds are you are using too much NR for the final use looking at that 1:1 vs paying attention to final WEB/Print Size. Unless Printing 4x5 foot prints.

Screen Grab of My settings on this image. When the Sharpening and NR are turned on

FF No NR No Sharpening

FF with PP Settings

1:2 Crop with NO NR No Sharpening

1:2 Crop with NR and Sharpening

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K.E.H. >> Shooting between raindrops in WA<<

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Olovskie Forum Member • Posts: 78
Re: Is this photo noisy or normal according to you (A77+SAL70300G SSM)
1

With 2,7m distance to the subject aperture 5,6 the DOF is only +-2 cm. Therefore it is difficult, with these settings, to get full sharpness from the claws to the beak.

kartikjayaraman
OP kartikjayaraman Contributing Member • Posts: 563
Re: The camera is a mismatch for you

sybersitizen wrote:

I myself have no issue using my recently purchased A77 at ISO 1600, or higher if needed... but, similar to you, I like shooting JPEGs at 12mp, which is not what everyone wants to do.

Constant discussions about this one factor over everything else have become extremely tiresome, so if I involve myself in them at all, my inclination at this point will be to drive noise-obsessed users away from the A77 and be done with it.

I think the problem is that we are in a constant state of denial when it comes to accepting limitations of equipment we own. If anyone had mentioned in my other thread that they shoot 12 MP to "get around" the noise issue, that would have really helped not only me but any other user who is considering buying it. Instead I was told that if you are getting noise in a blue sky at 400 ISO then there is something wrong with the camera/lens . And remember, every time a new user faces the same issue, they will have their own opinions - that is what an online forum is for. If this is becoming 'tiresome' - then there are more than a few users who seem to think the way that I do. You driving them away does not solve the root cause of the issue.

K E Hoffman - Thanks for the detailed analysis, I will look into what you mentioned.

I was reading another thread in the Open or Nikon forum where the forum users suspected dust to be an issue on the D600 (?) and were planning to sue Nikon for that. Some of them also sent their camera back to Nikon for fixing the issue and Nikon did acknowledge and fix it (because there were several users complaining). One of the users even made a time lapse video to prove that. They didn't tell the affected users they didn't know how to use the blowers to clean sensors properly I think its that kind of unity we need here with us Sony users (I have been shooting ONLY Sony all my life). And I think paying for a 24 MP camera and getting noise at most ISO settings, then compromising and shooting at 12 MP likesome users do - is like a workaround for an issue many users acknowledge.

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