What a Higher Minimum Wage Does

Started Dec 9, 2013 | Discussions
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(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 5,288
What a Higher Minimum Wage Does

for Workers and the Economy according to Bloomberg Businessweek

Obama appealed "Tonight, let’s declare that in the wealthiest nation on earth, no one who works full time should have to live in poverty."

A Gallup poll in November found that 76 percent of Americans would vote for a $9 federal wage floor.

Sainsbury will probably never meet Luz Droz, but he, too, had minimum-wage employment on his mind. To compete with China, he said, “the West must race to the top” and not try to “screw down the wages.”

Link

Wages

edwardaneal
edwardaneal Veteran Member • Posts: 9,101
Re: What a Higher Minimum Wage Does

Ozark Hellbender wrote:

for Workers and the Economy according to Bloomberg Businessweek

Obama appealed "Tonight, let’s declare that in the wealthiest nation on earth, no one who works full time should have to live in poverty."

A Gallup poll in November found that 76 percent of Americans would vote for a $9 federal wage floor

but is $9.00 really going to do anything? - sure a single guy like my son with little to no debt and no need of a car can get by on it, but if you really wanted a standard minimum across the country that would be "livable" I would bet it would need to be at least $15.00 per hour and perhaps even more.

what impact do you think that would have on the outsourcing of jobs?

.

Sainsbury will probably never meet Luz Droz, but he, too, had minimum-wage employment on his mind. To compete with China, he said, “the West must race to the top” and not try to “screw down the wages.”

Link

Wages

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57even Senior Member • Posts: 9,863
Re: What a Higher Minimum Wage Does

edwardaneal wrote:

Ozark Hellbender wrote:

for Workers and the Economy according to Bloomberg Businessweek

Obama appealed "Tonight, let’s declare that in the wealthiest nation on earth, no one who works full time should have to live in poverty."

A Gallup poll in November found that 76 percent of Americans would vote for a $9 federal wage floor

but is $9.00 really going to do anything? - sure a single guy like my son with little to no debt and no need of a car can get by on it, but if you really wanted a standard minimum across the country that would be "livable" I would bet it would need to be at least $15.00 per hour and perhaps even more.

But it's better than $6.

what impact do you think that would have on the outsourcing of jobs?

None. Most low end jobs are local services that cannot be outsourced.

Most people on minimum wage also get food stamps and other benefits. This would reduce the level of subsidy. Simple. Does it really matter if MacD charge 10c more per burger?

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kixigvaq
kixigvaq Senior Member • Posts: 1,108
Control immigration and wages will go up

It's all about supply and demand, not some dumb law thrown out there by the government. When I lived in San Francisco I was a regular at a laundry owned by a Pakistani family. They'd figured out how much their competition, a Korean-owned laundry, was paying its employees. It was less than $1 an hour. They had a number of people working off the books and payed them in cash. The percentage of the business on the books was probably 40%.

A friend of mine from Mexico had a remodeling business in SF. When he wasn't complaining about the gringos he was complaining about the Chinese companies having two guys on the payroll and 20 illegals working off the books.

The government can't control this sort of thing. But they are supposed to be controlling immigration. That's where the failure is.

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mamallama
mamallama Forum Pro • Posts: 45,742
Re: What a Higher Minimum Wage Does

57even wrote:

edwardaneal wrote:

Ozark Hellbender wrote:

for Workers and the Economy according to Bloomberg Businessweek

Obama appealed "Tonight, let’s declare that in the wealthiest nation on earth, no one who works full time should have to live in poverty."

A Gallup poll in November found that 76 percent of Americans would vote for a $9 federal wage floor

but is $9.00 really going to do anything? - sure a single guy like my son with little to no debt and no need of a car can get by on it, but if you really wanted a standard minimum across the country that would be "livable" I would bet it would need to be at least $15.00 per hour and perhaps even more.

But it's better than $6.

what impact do you think that would have on the outsourcing of jobs?

None. Most low end jobs are local services that cannot be outsourced.

Most people on minimum wage also get food stamps and other benefits. This would reduce the level of subsidy. Simple. Does it really matter if MacD charge 10c more per burger?

Or share more of it's profits with the workers.

Your counter to doing nothing is well stated.

(unknown member) OP Senior Member • Posts: 5,288
Re: Control immigration and wages will go up

kixigvaq wrote:

It's all about supply and demand, not some dumb law thrown out there by the government. When I lived in San Francisco I was a regular at a laundry owned by a Pakistani family. They'd figured out how much their competition, a Korean-owned laundry, was paying its employees. It was less than $1 an hour. They had a number of people working off the books and payed them in cash. The percentage of the business on the books was probably 40%.

A friend of mine from Mexico had a remodeling business in SF. When he wasn't complaining about the gringos he was complaining about the Chinese companies having two guys on the payroll and 20 illegals working off the books.

The government can't control this sort of thing. But they are supposed to be controlling immigration. That's where the failure is.

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The failure is business not paying a living wage. The immigration problem arises because businesses and individuals exploit the desperate immigrants.

Morris Sullivan Veteran Member • Posts: 8,411
Re: What a Higher Minimum Wage Does

edwardaneal wrote:

Ozark Hellbender wrote:

for Workers and the Economy according to Bloomberg Businessweek

Obama appealed "Tonight, let’s declare that in the wealthiest nation on earth, no one who works full time should have to live in poverty."

A Gallup poll in November found that 76 percent of Americans would vote for a $9 federal wage floor

but is $9.00 really going to do anything? - sure a single guy like my son with little to no debt and no need of a car can get by on it, but if you really wanted a standard minimum across the country that would be "livable" I would bet it would need to be at least $15.00 per hour and perhaps even more.

The error here is that you are basing your opinion of the national living wage on the living expenses of your son. Does he live in Palm Springs with you? The national minimum wage should be based on some of the cheapest places to live, and the individual areas should deal with their local needs.

A local store in small town Texas shouldn't have to pay enough to support a family in Manhattan.

what impact do you think that would have on the outsourcing of jobs?

.

Sainsbury will probably never meet Luz Droz, but he, too, had minimum-wage employment on his mind. To compete with China, he said, “the West must race to the top” and not try to “screw down the wages.”

Link

Wages

kixigvaq
kixigvaq Senior Member • Posts: 1,108
You're never owned a business, have you?

Ozark Hellbender wrote:

The failure is business not paying a living wage. The immigration problem arises because businesses and individuals exploit the desperate immigrants.

You have no clue how it works.

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(unknown member) OP Senior Member • Posts: 5,288
Re: You're never owned a business, have you?

kixigvaq wrote:

Ozark Hellbender wrote:

The failure is business not paying a living wage. The immigration problem arises because businesses and individuals exploit the desperate immigrants.

You have no clue how it works.

Whatever. But I am right

57even Senior Member • Posts: 9,863
Re: You're never owned a business, have you?
1

kixigvaq wrote:

Ozark Hellbender wrote:

The failure is business not paying a living wage. The immigration problem arises because businesses and individuals exploit the desperate immigrants.

You have no clue how it works.

I have, and I do. I have also helped many multi-nationals set up global support services.

Paying people a bare minimum is a false investment. The high turnover, lack of motivation and poor level of applicant simply makes the business inefficient and the staff do nothing for the company's reputation.

10 well trained and motivated employees will do more productive work than 100 poorly paid and unmotivated ones. Clearly you still apply Victorian workhouse economics.

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Lee Jay Forum Pro • Posts: 50,690
There's a problem.

Ozark Hellbender wrote:

Obama appealed "Tonight, let’s declare that in the wealthiest nation on earth, no one who works full time should have to live in poverty."

You can make millions and live in poverty (and people have done it).

It's all about making good decisions early on, continuing to make good decisions, and money management - if you're making enough.  I would argue that neither the current minimum wage nor $9 an hour is enough if you don't get health benefits and have to live on your own, especially if you don't have a near-perfect situation of little or no commute, no significant health issues, and no significant debt repayment load.  I've lived on $9.50 an hour with no benefits, but I did have a near-perfect situation at the time (no debt, health insurance through school, no significant health issues).  It was doable and even allowed me to save, but only because of the surrounding circumstances.

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Lee Jay

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Chipsthe1 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,476
Re: What a Higher Minimum Wage Does

57even wrote:

None. Most low end jobs are local services that cannot be outsourced.

Most people on minimum wage also get food stamps and other benefits. This would reduce the level of subsidy. Simple. Does it really matter if MacD charge 10c more per burger?

One of the consequences of boosting the lowest paid jobs is the impact it has on payroll for the jobs above. you boost the lowest paid then the next tier generally has to be increased, then the next, the next and so on. Granted this is not always the case but in generally if the lowest pay grade receives an increase those above must also receive increased compensation.

57even Senior Member • Posts: 9,863
Re: Control immigration and wages will go up

kixigvaq wrote:

It's all about supply and demand, not some dumb law thrown out there by the government. When I lived in San Francisco I was a regular at a laundry owned by a Pakistani family. They'd figured out how much their competition, a Korean-owned laundry, was paying its employees. It was less than $1 an hour. They had a number of people working off the books and payed them in cash. The percentage of the business on the books was probably 40%.

A friend of mine from Mexico had a remodeling business in SF. When he wasn't complaining about the gringos he was complaining about the Chinese companies having two guys on the payroll and 20 illegals working off the books.

The government can't control this sort of thing. But they are supposed to be controlling immigration. That's where the failure is.

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Controlling immigration more than you already do would cost more to implement than the cost of the immigration itself.

Just ban employment of illegal labour and no-one would bother coming in. Once a few companies are shut down for using them, it will stop.

Furthermore immigration is your only solution to an ageing population who are an increasing burden. Do you want to make a breeding program compulsory for citizens?

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57even Senior Member • Posts: 9,863
Re: What a Higher Minimum Wage Does
1

Chipsthe1 wrote:

57even wrote:

None. Most low end jobs are local services that cannot be outsourced.

Most people on minimum wage also get food stamps and other benefits. This would reduce the level of subsidy. Simple. Does it really matter if MacD charge 10c more per burger?

One of the consequences of boosting the lowest paid jobs is the impact it has on payroll for the jobs above. you boost the lowest paid then the next tier generally has to be increased, then the next, the next and so on. Granted this is not always the case but in generally if the lowest pay grade receives an increase those above must also receive increased compensation.

Minimum wage companies don't have this kind of structure. And there are generally far fewer people in the tier above.

UK minimum wage actually had a positive effect. It reduced the number of people working illegally because you could not simply push the costs through your tax returns without declaring employee wages and benefits.

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Brian Forum Pro • Posts: 18,233
Re: What a Higher Minimum Wage Does

Ozark Hellbender wrote:

for Workers and the Economy according to Bloomberg Businessweek

Obama appealed "Tonight, let’s declare that in the wealthiest nation on earth, no one who works full time should have to live in poverty."

A Gallup poll in November found that 76 percent of Americans would vote for a $9 federal wage floor.

Sainsbury will probably never meet Luz Droz, but he, too, had minimum-wage employment on his mind. To compete with China, he said, “the West must race to the top” and not try to “screw down the wages.”

Link

Wages

Did you even bother to read the article or watch the video?

Neither one really says what raising the minimum to $9/hr does.  At best they try to say that it won't hurt the economy.

The real answer here is minimum wage regardless of the rate is still the minimum wage and brings along with it all the connotations that one thinks of when they hear minimum wage.  If you raise it to $12/hr, you'll end up with a lot more people making only the minimum wage.

That additional wage doesn't just appear out of the blue, it comes from the profits of the company.  The owners of the company will not be happy taking a pay hit, and therefore will look for other means to offset the hit.  reduced services, smaller portions, higher priced goods, etc.  None of these are addressed in either of these articles.

And in the end it is still minimum wage.  The person that it hurts the most are those make $3-4 more than minimum.  If you raise the minimum, companies aren't just going to give everyone a raise.  If you were making $11/hr and they raised the minimum to $10/hr, most likely, you will not be seeing a raise any time soon.  inflation will drive the buying power down and those that were making $11/hr are the ones that really get hosed.

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Brian

Calexico78 Junior Member • Posts: 44
Re: What a Higher Minimum Wage Does

Brian wrote:

Ozark Hellbender wrote:

for Workers and the Economy according to Bloomberg Businessweek

Obama appealed "Tonight, let’s declare that in the wealthiest nation on earth, no one who works full time should have to live in poverty."

A Gallup poll in November found that 76 percent of Americans would vote for a $9 federal wage floor.

Sainsbury will probably never meet Luz Droz, but he, too, had minimum-wage employment on his mind. To compete with China, he said, “the West must race to the top” and not try to “screw down the wages.”

Link

Wages

Did you even bother to read the article or watch the video?

Neither one really says what raising the minimum to $9/hr does. At best they try to say that it won't hurt the economy.

The real answer here is minimum wage regardless of the rate is still the minimum wage and brings along with it all the connotations that one thinks of when they hear minimum wage. If you raise it to $12/hr, you'll end up with a lot more people making only the minimum wage.

That additional wage doesn't just appear out of the blue, it comes from the profits of the company. The owners of the company will not be happy taking a pay hit, and therefore will look for other means to offset the hit. reduced services, smaller portions, higher priced goods, etc. None of these are addressed in either of these articles.

And in the end it is still minimum wage. The person that it hurts the most are those make $3-4 more than minimum. If you raise the minimum, companies aren't just going to give everyone a raise. If you were making $11/hr and they raised the minimum to $10/hr, most likely, you will not be seeing a raise any time soon. inflation will drive the buying power down and those that were making $11/hr are the ones that really get hosed.

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Brian

Which video? I studied economics and youtube is not the way to understand these complex quantitative methods applied.

RBFresno
RBFresno Forum Pro • Posts: 11,328
A Converstion about minimum wage....
2

Ozark Hellbender wrote:

for Workers and the Economy according to Bloomberg Businessweek

Obama appealed "Tonight, let’s declare that in the wealthiest nation on earth, no one who works full time should have to live in poverty."

A Gallup poll in November found that 76 percent of Americans would vote for a $9 federal wage floor.

Sainsbury will probably never meet Luz Droz, but he, too, had minimum-wage employment on his mind. To compete with China, he said, “the West must race to the top” and not try to “screw down the wages.”

Link

Wages

A Conversation about minimum wage

RB

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lylejk
lylejk Forum Pro • Posts: 29,338
This past Nov, they raised....
1

...the cost of my Mac double 21¢ (from $1.10 to $1.31) and my favorite Chick-fil-a sandwich up 5%.  How much higher do you think the cost of these items will go when the minimum gets raise?.   Also, union jobs get an automatic adjustment based on minimum wage so their salaries will rise, and then most other jobs that pay above minimum wage with be adjusted accordingly since that's what aways happens.   You get huge inflation is what.   Minimum wage type jobs were never designed to be a living wage one.   Folk need to use these jobs as a stepping stone to a living wage and not expect them to be anything other then what these jobs are.   If you raise the minimum, then you will see creative companies figure out even more clever ways to automate folk out of a job as well and how does that help those looking for those stepping stone opportunities?  Instead of a little stepping stone, those folk will have a hard time climbing a cliff.   Why do you think a 5¢ loaf of bread from the turn of the 19th century costs you over $2.00 now?  You guessed it, it's the minimum wage.    Increasing the minimum just makes those that are poor even worse off.   Purchasing power will drop too as the cost of goods and services will rise even higher then the increase rate of the minimum as always happens.   

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Lee Jay Forum Pro • Posts: 50,690
Re: This past Nov, they raised....

lylejk wrote:

...the cost of my Mac double 21¢ (from $1.10 to $1.31) and my favorite Chick-fil-a sandwich up 5%. How much higher do you think the cost of these items will go when the minimum gets raise?. Also, union jobs get an automatic adjustment based on minimum wage so their salaries will rise, and then most other jobs that pay above minimum wage with be adjusted accordingly since that's what aways happens. You get huge inflation is what.

There's essentially no credible evidence that minimum wage hikes cause a measurable amount of inflation in the overall economy, and even for companies that hire many minimum wage workers, the total overall impact is substantially less than 1% of revenue (closer to 0.1%).

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Lee Jay

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lylejk
lylejk Forum Pro • Posts: 29,338
Re: This past Nov, they raised....

Then why is a 5¢ loaf of bread now $2.00?   The domino effect nobody ever considers when raising the minimum is why.    It's already bad enough when lefts like Bernake print money to the point that has been done thus far.   That's why we are now seeing the 5% increase come early; it's going to get worse and raising the minimum will more then take us over the top to a Weimar like situation.   Get your wheelbarrows ready. 

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