Anyone for separate FF & APSc DPR forums?

Started Nov 25, 2013 | Discussions
OP 1prime Senior Member • Posts: 1,108
Re: YES!!!!!!

moimoi wrote:

ABSOLUTELY!

It has always been my belief that Sony FF users have their own forums.

The way I would do it is rather simple:

* FF cameras: a850/a900/a99/rx1 series/a7 series
* APS-C SLR/SLT/NEX
* Cybershot

It would be much clearer, and much more organized.

Dpreview has not moved forward thus far. The Canikon forums are better to read IMO.

Cheers,

Moimoi
--

Moimoi, At first take, I was in favor of your suggestion. But then I turned to the "Sony Alpha SLR/SLT A-mount Talk" forum and found it filled with around 50 current and vibrant posts. I asked myself if they really need APSc pushing down their throats, much like we're experiencing the earnest but overwhelming FFers now. My conclusion is for DPR to give Sony 4 forums with NEX retaining its original forum; a FF forum; SLR/SLT forum; and Cybershot forum.

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1prime

sroute Senior Member • Posts: 2,497
IDEA: A Forum For Discussing New Forum Organization
2

Between the:

- I don't want to talk about A7 camera threads, and

- Can we please have a new forum, and

- NEX is dead!, and

- NEX is alive!, and

- the onslaught of YOU DON'T NEED A FULL FRAME SENSOR threads started by NEX and MFT aficionados

... if we just cut out all the nonsense above, this would be a quieter forum and you wouldn't feel it necessary to create new sub-forum organization.

My vote remains: Please create a SONY FORUM ORGANIZATION SUBFORUM

... but leave all the others as-is.

Digital Nigel Veteran Member • Posts: 8,126
Re: no

edwardaneal wrote:

1prime wrote:

edwardaneal wrote:

I want all e-mount cameras to be in a single forum - I am selfish and I dont want to have to be surfing between two different forums when I am curious about some e-mount lens that works on both full frame and APS-c cameras

personally I think the commonality of the lenses the cameras use is more important than the sensor size

Well, it seems that lens commonality is a temporary issue until Sony sees fit to produce more specific lenses for their new FF Alphas. I assume you are aware of that. And most of the E lens info has already been posted. As well as any two way working E lens will assuredly be posted in a FF forum. If you need to periodically surf, it shouldn't be that troublesome for you to go to the APSc forum for that info. At least you'd be looking for something specific.

If you consider your statement from our perspective, instead of specific "surfing" we are bombarded every day with FF posts that override and often attack our point of APSc view. Most of us NEXers just want to survive in our old thread. Do some surfing here for yourself, and you'll readily find what I'm referring to. Enjoy your new FF.

just to make it clear to you - I shoot and NEX-7 with a Sigma 30mm f/2.8 and an NEX-5 with an 18-55

I have no intention of buying a new camera until my NEX-7 dies and even thin it will most likely not be FF

Agreed. I'm irked with the endless A7 posts, and would rather go back to a quieter NEX forum.

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OP 1prime Senior Member • Posts: 1,108
FF 50 posts vs APS-c 7...is the NEX need clear?
1

sroute wrote:

Between the:

- I don't want to talk about A7 camera threads, and

- Can we please have a new forum, and

- NEX is dead!, and

- NEX is alive!, and

- the onslaught of YOU DON'T NEED A FULL FRAME SENSOR threads started by NEX and MFT aficionados

... if we just cut out all the nonsense above, this would be a quieter forum and you wouldn't feel it necessary to create new sub-forum organization.

My vote remains: Please create a SONY FORUM ORGANIZATION SUBFORUM

... but leave all the others as-is.

ssroute, You have the substance of over 2,000 posts and a good sense of humor. But you do miss the point.

When this E forum reverts from a full page to a mere 7 posts, contrasted with the same page filled with 50 FF posts, along with 3 posts misguidedly pushing 4/3 issues, it's time for DPR to rethink its forum strategy. Go over and read the Nikon forums; they have divisions much like many of us are suggesting. It would be reasonable and workable for Sony to have 4 forums. If it's possible and practical to have a 5th dual forum for common FF and APSc issues such as lenses, do that too, but I have a feeling that would be over the top. So let's settle for 4 forums.

In some ways NEXers must be thankful DPR has listened but not exterminated this thread. NEXers don't speak from what a few suggest is an inferiority complex. No, the 50 to 7 ratio should explain the problem.

SO, DPR, PLEASE STUDY THIS THREAD AND MAKE A DECISION. Thanks.

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1prime

captura Forum Pro • Posts: 26,979
Re: Anyone for separate FF & APSc DPR forums?

Annex wrote:

captura wrote:

navierb wrote:

E-Mount is E-Mount, no matter which Sensor Size has

That's like saying we all breathe oxygen.

So, essentially true?

E-mount *is* emount and there is more shared between the FF & APS-C than that which differs. Why would it be good to split? Just so people feel better for 2-3 weeks?

Just let the furor pass and it will be fine for both camps.

We are in a ridiculously heightened state atm where both sets of users feel marginalised and are fighting for no good reason, this is purely due to the change effect. Lets things settle, stop shouting and pointing fingers and discussions/decisions will be FAR more sane.

I'm an APS-C and FF user, both in e-mount and other systems, both sony systems share vastly more than they differ despite the calls for segregation. People need to calm down and stop the histrionics, its seriously lame and is becoming a major spoiler to these forums.

"I'm an APS-C and FF user, both in e-mount and other systems.."

So you are saying that you already have a FF Sony, either the A7 or the A7R? You must be one of the very select & lucky few!

There is NOTHING shared between the FF Sony's and the APSC Sony's except the Alpha name. Although the lenses use the same E-mount configuration, they may as well NOT be interchangeable. For who in their right mind would get NEX-APS-C lenses for their A7? And who would want to pay the huge price for a huge FE lens which is designed for an A7, just mount it on their NEX?

Were you being obtuse, or just a little slow? The latter is forgivable.

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captura Forum Pro • Posts: 26,979
Re: FF 50 posts vs APS-c 7...is the NEX need clear?

1prime wrote:

sroute wrote:

Between the:

- I don't want to talk about A7 camera threads, and

- Can we please have a new forum, and

- NEX is dead!, and

- NEX is alive!, and

- the onslaught of YOU DON'T NEED A FULL FRAME SENSOR threads started by NEX and MFT aficionados

... if we just cut out all the nonsense above, this would be a quieter forum and you wouldn't feel it necessary to create new sub-forum organization.

My vote remains: Please create a SONY FORUM ORGANIZATION SUBFORUM

... but leave all the others as-is.

ssroute, You have the substance of over 2,000 posts and a good sense of humor. But you do miss the point.

When this E forum reverts from a full page to a mere 7 posts, contrasted with the same page filled with 50 FF posts, along with 3 posts misguidedly pushing 4/3 issues, it's time for DPR to rethink its forum strategy. Go over and read the Nikon forums; they have divisions much like many of us are suggesting. It would be reasonable and workable for Sony to have 4 forums. If it's possible and practical to have a 5th dual forum for common FF and APSc issues such as lenses, do that too, but I have a feeling that would be over the top. So let's settle for 4 forums.

In some ways NEXers must be thankful DPR has listened but not exterminated this thread. NEXers don't speak from what a few suggest is an inferiority complex. No, the 50 to 7 ratio should explain the problem.

SO, DPR, PLEASE STUDY THIS THREAD AND MAKE A DECISION. Thanks.

Amen to that, brother.

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ProfHankD
ProfHankD Veteran Member • Posts: 6,481
Sony's confusing world
1

I think E-mount vs. A-mount has been an important distinction because so many more legacy lenses can work with E-mount. However, A-mount lenses are first-class E-mount citizens using a Sony-made adapter.... One could argue for FF vs. APS-C being the real distinction on that basis. Oddly, FF E-mount even has its own name: FE-mount... whereas A-mount never distinguished between FF and APS-C only lenses in the mount name.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that Sony is a taxonomy-defying company. It's actually their defining characteristic in the current market. There really isn't a natural partitioning of their products into groups.

The annoying thing I've noted is that only a small fraction of posts convey useful info, and those are usually followed by a burst of brand-biased-folks indicating their displeasure. I don't think any repartitioning of fora would be likely to change that. Sadly, DPReview's disturbingly poor ratio is still way better than most fora involving photography and photographic equipment.

So, in sum, be thankful things are as good as they are here and try to ignore the noise....  

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hdr Senior Member • Posts: 2,841
Re: Anyone for separate FF & APSc DPR forums?

1prime wrote:

D Cox wrote:

No.

There is not enough difference between the NEX cameras and the A7(r) to justify two forums, in my opinion.

I see your point, but did you consider the differences in DPR posts don't merely lie in the technical subtleties you mention. The sometimes contentious and often misunderstood posts for both the FF and APSc advocates actually reflect different interests and problems...

FF users and crop users obviously have different needs and interests. Mixing them one forum is not a good idea, especially when it comes to defending and singing high praises for each's respective choice, as we've seen in the forum.

IMHO, if FF cameras had come out in the market at the same time as crop cameras, and at reasonable price difference and with a goodly range of lenses to match, there can be no doubt that serious photographers would have been snapping up the FFs, leaving the crop cameras to only budget-conscious hobbyists.

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Edward Sargent
Edward Sargent Veteran Member • Posts: 4,693
No

We have much to learn from each other. Having to read two or three forums would be detrimental. Don't forget there are a lot more shared features than the difference of sensor size.

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OP 1prime Senior Member • Posts: 1,108
Being Thankful for even Sony's confusing world
1

ProfHankD wrote:

I think E-mount vs. A-mount has been an important distinction because so many more legacy lenses can work with E-mount. However, A-mount lenses are first-class E-mount citizens using a Sony-made adapter.... One could argue for FF vs. APS-C being the real distinction on that basis. Oddly, FF E-mount even has its own name: FE-mount... whereas A-mount never distinguished between FF and APS-C only lenses in the mount name.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that Sony is a taxonomy-defying company. It's actually their defining characteristic in the current market. There really isn't a natural partitioning of their products into groups.

The annoying thing I've noted is that only a small fraction of posts convey useful info, and those are usually followed by a burst of brand-biased-folks indicating their displeasure. I don't think any repartitioning of fora would be likely to change that. Sadly, DPReview's disturbingly poor ratio is still way better than most fora involving photography and photographic equipment.

So, in sum, be thankful things are as good as they are here and try to ignore the noise....

Henry, Your encouragement is most timely. We should be thankful for whatever Sony mirrorless camera we have, for the smooth functioning of DPR, and for our forum that allows us to both explore the physical and aesthetic aspects of photography.

So happy gobble to you Professor!  Don

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1prime

120 to 35 Senior Member • Posts: 1,278
Re: bet on it - NEX is only a name

1prime wrote:

120 to 35 wrote:

captura wrote:

120 to 35 wrote:

NEX stands for Next E-mount Experience. The name did make sense for one generation of different camera models but looks a bit dated after a few years. What do you call the next thing after the last next thing? Future E-mount models just using the general Alpha brand with model numbers sounds more up-to-date.

We all get it. Why keep repeating the same thing, over and over. But no one KNOWS if there will be APS-C rangefinders in our future, DO they?

It is the first time I have mentioned this point about the NEX name.

BTW, you seem to think you speak for more than one person when you say "we all get it".

120, I suggest you look up captura's record on DPR. He has been a leader, a coach, a real helper to me and others, and often a spokesman for NEXers. Yes, we all get pigeon-holed from time to time and captura is no exception, mainly because he is not afraid to say what needs to be said. He has the respect of his fellow very senior posters here. So I'd also be careful how you blithely take exception to him. Maybe some self-reflection is needed on your part 120.

Thanks for the reminder. I see his current forum activity and it mainly consists of this sort of comments which add up to a large number and make him a senior poster. Here he first says my comment was repeating something, which is not true, then he says something about ragefinders, which the comment does not refer to. It seems he is replying here to my comments in some other thread days ago. But I take your advice and will ignore any such comments in the future.

Annex Regular Member • Posts: 194
Re: Anyone for separate FF & APSc DPR forums?

captura wrote:

Annex wrote:

captura wrote:

navierb wrote:

E-Mount is E-Mount, no matter which Sensor Size has

That's like saying we all breathe oxygen.

So, essentially true?

E-mount *is* emount and there is more shared between the FF & APS-C than that which differs. Why would it be good to split? Just so people feel better for 2-3 weeks?

Just let the furor pass and it will be fine for both camps.

We are in a ridiculously heightened state atm where both sets of users feel marginalised and are fighting for no good reason, this is purely due to the change effect. Lets things settle, stop shouting and pointing fingers and discussions/decisions will be FAR more sane.

I'm an APS-C and FF user, both in e-mount and other systems, both sony systems share vastly more than they differ despite the calls for segregation. People need to calm down and stop the histrionics, its seriously lame and is becoming a major spoiler to these forums.

"I'm an APS-C and FF user, both in e-mount and other systems.."

So you are saying that you already have a FF Sony, either the A7 or the A7R? You must be one of the very select & lucky few!

There is NOTHING shared between the FF Sony's and the APSC Sony's except the Alpha name. Although the lenses use the same E-mount configuration, they may as well NOT be interchangeable. For who in their right mind would get NEX-APS-C lenses for their A7? And who would want to pay the huge price for a huge FE lens which is designed for an A7, just mount it on their NEX?

Were you being obtuse, or just a little slow? The latter is forgivable.

Typical kind of post this forum is now attracting, offensive, rude and (your words) obtuse.

I have a (new) A7r, a NEX6, a NEX 5N, an X100s amongst many other cameras. The A7r shares vastly more with the NEX6 than it doesnt. Given that I have actually own both types of camera, Im sorry but my position is simply better informed than yours.

In a few minutes of use I was able to find the options and setting familiar to NEX users, I can mount my lenses (albeit in crop more) and the APS-C output is very similar to my NEX-6.On top of that all my NEX accessories work perfectly on the Alpha.

One of the prime reasons for choosing the A7r over the A7 is the ability to use crop lenses and retain good resolutions from the APS image resulting so yes, I personally am still interested in APS-C lenses. I'm sorry you don't see the familiarity and common ground but I own both systems. And I do.

What really disappoints me here is that senior users (eg captura, blue_skies) are being dragged into the name calling and chest beating (on both FF side and APS-C side). You guys are usually the ones who can be relied upon to present reasoned thoughts and frankly act like grown ups.

Real shame.

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jpr2 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,554
Annex: now, this is what I'd call a perfectly rounded argument...

Annex wrote:

I have a (new) A7r, a NEX6, a NEX 5N, an X100s amongst many other cameras. The A7r shares vastly more with the NEX6 than it doesn't. Given that I have actually own both types of camera, Im sorry but my position is simply better informed than yours.

In a few minutes of use I was able to find the options and setting familiar to NEX users, I can mount my lenses (albeit in crop more) and the APS-C output is very similar to my NEX-6.On top of that all my NEX accessories work perfectly on the Alpha.

One of the prime reasons for choosing the A7r over the A7 is the ability to use crop lenses and retain good resolutions from the APS image resulting so yes, I personally am still interested in APS-C lenses. I'm sorry you don't see the familiarity and common ground but I own both systems. And I do.

What really disappoints me here is that senior users (eg captura, blue_skies) are being dragged into the name calling and chest beating (on both FF side and APS-C side). You guys are usually the ones who can be relied upon to present reasoned thoughts and frankly act like grown ups.

Real shame.

...clear, concise, well presented, and up to the point - bravo !!

jpr2

jpr2 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,554
re: NO, don't do it - differences are very slight indeed...

D Cox wrote:

No.

There is not enough difference between the NEX cameras and the A7(r) to justify two forums, in my opinion.

moreover, it is very, very likely, that should there be N7 mk-II then in all probability it will inherit in FW all the UI functionality, menus, and perhaps even the plethora of external controls: knobs, wheels and configurability from the a7/a7r.

So... any shortcomings present right now in these two FFs - and there are already some quite grave ones discovered and described on this very forum - should be discussed in length here. As limited as our options are, this is a best place to discuss them, with some hope that it maybe will influence how/what will be implemented in mid Feb. next year into the N7 mk-II (and other Nex'en replacements),

jpr2

rogatsby
rogatsby Regular Member • Posts: 471
Re: Anyone for separate FF & APSc DPR forums?
2

I agree 100% that the a7/R and the Nex cameras need separate forums. I don't plan on buying the FF Sony, and I am still completely satisfied with my Nex. I want to come to the forum to get and share info about Nex cameras and lenses, and also share some photos with fellow Nex users, but that has become nigh impossible. Any Nex question is basically ignored at the moment. To make it even worse, the A7 posts have attracted a slew of M43 users here, and the forum has gone to crap from all of the childish bickering between the Sony users and M43 users.

Can we please have our Nex forum back?

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120 to 35 Senior Member • Posts: 1,278
Re: Anyone for separate FF & APSc DPR forums?

rogatsby wrote:

I agree 100% that the a7/R and the Nex cameras need separate forums. I don't plan on buying the FF Sony, and I am still completely satisfied with my Nex. I want to come to the forum to get and share info about Nex cameras and lenses, and also share some photos with fellow Nex users, but that has become nigh impossible. Any Nex question is basically ignored at the moment. To make it even worse, the A7 posts have attracted a slew of M43 users here, and the forum has gone to crap from all of the childish bickering between the Sony users and M43 users.

Can we please have our Nex forum back?

Please look closely at the thread list. No NEX question has been ignored recently. For example, there was a lively new thread about the new Zeiss 16-70 zoom. I could only spot a couple of A7 question that had no reply, obviously because the camera is new and not widely available.

As any questions and share your photos if you want comments and you will certainly get replies.

jpr2 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,554
re: you do exagerate - but perhaps it is a legitimate argumantative ploy...
2

rogatsby wrote:

I agree 100% that the a7/R and the Nex cameras need separate forums. I don't plan on buying the FF Sony, and I am still completely satisfied with my Nex. I want to come to the forum to get and share info about Nex cameras and lenses, and also share some photos with fellow Nex users, but that has become nigh impossible. Any Nex question is basically ignored at the moment.

...however:

  • there simply wasn't a NEX thread with a good questionthat got ignored, after the a7s were released in the third decade of Oct. 2013;
  • more importantly, it is very, very likely, that should there be N7 mk-II then in all probability it will inherit in FW all the UI functionality, menus, and perhaps even the plethora of external controls: knobs, wheels and configurability from the a7/a7r;
  • so... any shortcomings present right now in these two FFs - and there are already some quite grave ones discovered and described on this very forum - should be discussed in length here;
  • as limited as our options are, this is a best place to discuss them, with some hope that it maybe will influence how/what will be implemented in mid Feb. next year into the N7 mk-II (and other Nex'en replacements),

jpr2

rogatsby
rogatsby Regular Member • Posts: 471
Re: Anyone for separate FF & APSc DPR forums?

120 to 35 wrote:

rogatsby wrote:

I agree 100% that the a7/R and the Nex cameras need separate forums. I don't plan on buying the FF Sony, and I am still completely satisfied with my Nex. I want to come to the forum to get and share info about Nex cameras and lenses, and also share some photos with fellow Nex users, but that has become nigh impossible. Any Nex question is basically ignored at the moment. To make it even worse, the A7 posts have attracted a slew of M43 users here, and the forum has gone to crap from all of the childish bickering between the Sony users and M43 users.

Can we please have our Nex forum back?

Please look closely at the thread list. No NEX question has been ignored recently. For example, there was a lively new thread about the new Zeiss 16-70 zoom. I could only spot a couple of A7 question that had no reply, obviously because the camera is new and not widely available.

As any questions and share your photos if you want comments and you will certainly get replies.

Yes, please do look closely at the thread list. It's true that most Nex questions still get a few responses, but the depth and quality of discussion in these threads have seriously eroded due to the inundation of A7/R threads. As it looks right now, A7/R seems to warrant a dedicated forum due to the volume of threads about these cameras. While I acknowledge that some of that is due to the fact that it is so new, I think there will be a steady stream of people moving to that platform, and interest will continue to rise as new lenses are released for the FF Sony's.

Please also keep in mind that there is a very real possibility that a Nex-6 or Nex-7 update may be released relatively soon. Although this would probably result in more Nex discussion here, I think that would be all the more reason to have separate forums for the FF and Nex formats. I think there are plenty members like me who are satisfied with the Ne platform and the APS-C format for various reasons, including the investment we have made in existing lenses. If we have separate forums, I will still be able to check on developments in the FF platform, and FF users will still be able to come to the Nex forum to browse. But the separation will make for a cleaner and more efficient discussion platform in my opinion.

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sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 13,703
Re: Anyone for separate FF & APSc DPR forums?

Who cares what cameras get the most attention? If you want to talk about a particular camera, make a thread about it. People seem distraught over certain cameras taking a temporary precedent over others. Why?

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rogatsby
rogatsby Regular Member • Posts: 471
Re: Anyone for separate FF & APSc DPR forums?

sportyaccordy wrote:

Who cares what cameras get the most attention? If you want to talk about a particular camera, make a thread about it. People seem distraught over certain cameras taking a temporary precedent over others. Why?

LOL. It's not a question of what camera gets the most posts or attention. For me personally, it's the fact that I have no interest in A7/R discussion, particularly when most of the threads are flame wars. I want to see Nex camera discussion. A7/R and Nex are totally different platforms. And, it is an issue when I have to wade through a slew of A7/R threads to find Nex-related threads. It's unnecessarily cumbersome.

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