Get this: Sigma WILL produce a camera that beats the current DSLRs resolution wise. Locked

Started Nov 20, 2013 | Discussions
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yvind Strm Veteran Member • Posts: 4,130
Get this: Sigma WILL produce a camera that beats the current DSLRs resolution wise.

Rumors are rumors.

Speculation is speculation.

History is history. And this is where we need to look.

Sigma WILL announce a camera that beats the new Sony and the D800/E resolution wise. It will be FF, with the same sensor density as with the SD1. They will not announce it before they have total control of the production costs. HOPEFULLY they have improved noise and high ISO. HOPEFULLY they spec it with faster processing, and a really deep buffer. HOPEFULLY it will have tethered, live view and video.

History lesson: In the end of 2008, after Sigma had acquired Foveon, Sigma and Foveon executives sat down and predicted where the industry (dSLR) would be two years from then, and then designed a camera that would beat the market, for announcement on Photokina 2010. Foveon had developed a more dense sensor (for us in mobile phones). All they needed was to enlarge the design and put it in a new camera. They succeeded - almost.

At Photokina 2010 they announced the SD1, a camera with better resolution than any other DSLR at that time, and set an incredible low price expectation. Everything was set for the biggest success of all times for Sigma. Many people had their cards ready, me included.

Unfortunately, they ran into production problems and were forced to announce a initial price of USD 9700. People were furious, especially because Sigma did not tell why at that time. Unfortunately, when they had solved the production problem, and announced the SD1 on PMA 2012, Nikon announced the D800/E, at about 1/3 of the initial SD1 price and close to the new SD1M price.

Very bad luck, if they had been able to deliver, with the initial price from march 2011, they would have had the scene alone for almost a year. And sold in buckets.

Its two points in this:

1. Sigma plans ahead. They foresaw the competitors development. Even while they developed the SD1, plans were laid for expanding the line upwards. The current sensor is from 2008, and still used in all cameras. Does anyone think Foveon has been sitting on their hands since 2008? For five years? Of course not. Yes, they have made a great effort with the DPxMs. But of course they have a new sensor (if not anything else, a FF version of the current sensor, with better high ISO) and a new camera. I suppose the original plan was to announce a FF in 2012. But:

2. With the SD1, Sigma choose to deliver the camera at the announced time, hopefully to leave the history of massive delays of SD14 and SD15 behind. With SD1, they got virtually no sale, because of a high price. In retrospect, they should have stopped production until they had control. They will never again release a camera before they have total control of production costs, no matter how much delayed it will be.

Why haven´t we seen the SD-FF yet? I think its because they are facing challenges, and want to control these before announcing a SD-FF.

Or, the competition made an unforeseen jump with the 36MP sensor, so the SD-FF would not make a needed leap, and they need to skip a generation.

For those thinking Sigma is leaving DSLR, I think they are not. They are a lens company, with ambitions for becoming a player on the DSLR market, with a larger range of cameras. The DP range has always been meant to lure people into the SD segment. They sell so few that the line itself is meaningless.

Photokina 2014: SD-FF. (I predicted 3x15MP before Photkina 2010, so mark my words.)

There will be no 4/3 camera from Sigma at this time.

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Øyvind

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Laurence Matson
Laurence Matson Forum Pro • Posts: 11,968
Got it: Gähn

I am overwhelmed.

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Omexis Contributing Member • Posts: 514
Re: Get this: Sigma WILL produce a camera that beats the current DSLRs resolution wise.

yvind Strm wrote:

Rumors are rumors.

Speculation is speculation.

History is history. And this is where we need to look.

Its two points in this:

1. Sigma plans ahead. They foresaw the competitors development. Even while they developed the SD1, plans were laid for expanding the line upwards. The current sensor is from 2008, and still used in all cameras. Does anyone think Foveon has been sitting on their hands since 2008? For five years? Of course not. Yes, they have made a great effort with the DPxMs. But of course they have a new sensor (if not anything else, a FF version of the current sensor, with better high ISO) and a new camera. I suppose the original plan was to announce a FF in 2012. But:

2. With the SD1, Sigma choose to deliver the camera at the announced time, hopefully to leave the history of massive delays of SD14 and SD15 behind. With SD1, they got virtually no sale, because of a high price. In retrospect, they should have stopped production until they had control. They will never again release a camera before they have total control of production costs, no matter how much delayed it will be.

Why haven´t we seen the SD-FF yet? I think its because they are facing challenges, and want to control these before announcing a SD-FF.

Or, the competition made an unforeseen jump with the 36MP sensor, so the SD-FF would not make a needed leap, and they need to skip a generation.

For those thinking Sigma is leaving DSLR, I think they are not. They are a lens company, with ambitions for becoming a player on the DSLR market, with a larger range of cameras. The DP range has always been meant to lure people into the SD segment. They sell so few that the line itself is meaningless.

Photokina 2014: SD-FF. (I predicted 3x15MP before Photkina 2010, so mark my words.)

There will be no 4/3 camera from Sigma at this time.

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Øyvind

1. Sigma do their own thing. The other manufacturers have already patented "Foveon" style sensors if rumors are correct and it won't be long until the others follow suit.

2. Yes that was bad, due to sensor manufacturing defects, I guess low yield and possibly try to recuperate R&D costs bumped the price up, but I guess sigma had to start to sell the camera to generate profit, once the defects were worked out they could lower the price, but it put potential people off from buying it.

I truly hope sigma release something spectacular, but I am doubtful. I think sigma should release a full frame Foveon to get a head start, because I imagine the others will in due time.

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Steven

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MOD Kendall Helmstetter Gelner Forum Pro • Posts: 20,074
Re: Get this: Sigma WILL produce a camera that beats the current DSLRs resolution wise.

Omexis wrote:

1. Sigma do their own thing. The other manufacturers have already patented "Foveon" style sensors if rumors are correct and it won't be long until the others follow suit.

Others follow suit... with more patents that never lead to real products?  How frightening for Sigma to compete against cameras that never ship and other people's random ideas of how to make a layered sensor that have never seen a production line or real world image capture.

2. Yes that was bad, due to sensor manufacturing defects, I guess low yield and possibly try to recuperate R&D costs bumped the price up, but I guess sigma had to start to sell the camera to generate profit, once the defects were worked out they could lower the price, but it put potential people off from buying it.

Nope (well the price being bad part was accurate, the rest totally baseless speculation that makes no sense given public facts).

I truly hope sigma release something spectacular, but I am doubtful. I think sigma should release a full frame Foveon to get a head start, because I imagine the others will in due time.

I don't know if they will make a FF or not - but they don't need to introduce a FF, just more lenses like the 18-25 f/1.8 that give you the same kind of DOF and focal length you would get from a FF camera, and a big overhaul of the SD-1 that adds live view and improves image capture speed.

If you think about it staying at a 1.5x crop allows them to maximize how many lenses can deliver really sharp results.

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Halldor Eiriksson Senior Member • Posts: 1,987
Re: Get this: Sigma WILL produce a camera that beats the current DSLRs resolution wise.

I would love a FF Foveon, but I think it will not happen.  It would not sell, just look at SD15 sales. Add limited lens selection of FF Sigma lenses and the business model is even worse.

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Omexis Contributing Member • Posts: 514
Re: Get this: Sigma WILL produce a camera that beats the current DSLRs resolution wise.

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

Omexis wrote:

1. Sigma do their own thing. The other manufacturers have already patented "Foveon" style sensors if rumors are correct and it won't be long until the others follow suit.

Others follow suit... with more patents that never lead to real products? How frightening for Sigma to compete against cameras that never ship and other people's random ideas of how to make a layered sensor that have never seen a production line or real world image capture.

Well I would like to think that is the future, I agree patents don't mean much, but if Sigma can do it, then why can't others?

2. Yes that was bad, due to sensor manufacturing defects, I guess low yield and possibly try to recuperate R&D costs bumped the price up, but I guess sigma had to start to sell the camera to generate profit, once the defects were worked out they could lower the price, but it put potential people off from buying it.

Nope (well the price being bad part was accurate, the rest totally baseless speculation that makes no sense given public facts).

What part was not accurate? and what public facts?

I truly hope sigma release something spectacular, but I am doubtful. I think sigma should release a full frame Foveon to get a head start, because I imagine the others will in due time.

I don't know if they will make a FF or not - but they don't need to introduce a FF, just more lenses like the 18-25 f/1.8 that give you the same kind of DOF and focal length you would get from a FF camera, and a big overhaul of the SD-1 that adds live view and improves image capture speed.

Agreed, but a full frame would be nice, I've never delved into FF yet, and I would like sigma to be my first

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Steven

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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 27,509
Re: Oops Öywind

Oops ... nope.

APS-C Foveon has currently, given some uninteresting percentage up or down, the same resolution as the highest resolution Bayer APS-C sensors. Its a draw there. Lets assume that Sigma releases an FF sensor. There is nothing that could convince me that it would best the best Bayer FF sensors with regard to resolution.

We can, of course, discus acutance. That Bayer sensor has some problems there.

But, Sony is not sleeping either. So, lets say the next generation APS-C is 40 MP and FF 80 MP. Just a guess. Might be more - might be less. Then the FF Foveon needs to be 40x3 MP, just to get even, and 50-60x3 MP to have a clear advantage, resolution wise.

So Öywind, would you bet on a 50+ MPx3 FF Sigma Foveon?

BTW - just looking at the Nokia multi mega chip in their phone. Maybe the next Bayer sensors are 200 MP. It is possible. Maybe not likely. But possible. You only have to invent some fast means of reading it, and also some bigger storages

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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 27,509
Re: Get this: Sigma WILL produce a camera that beats the current DSLRs resolution wise.

Omexis wrote:

Well I would like to think that is the future, I agree patents don't mean much, but if Sigma can do it, then why can't others?

The theory, among the Foveon/Sigma fans, is that a big company cannot do it, simply because an invention like Foveon would be stopped within a big company directly. It has too many disadvantages and would therefore not be an option. There is some merit to that theory, except ... they might decide to do it nevertheless.

The major risk, for Sigma, would be if someone invents a three layer sensor, without the disadvantages of Foveon sensors. A sensor that detects RGB instead of X3 colors, and that is just as good (or better) as Bayer sensors at high ISO, which do not suck big loads of energy from the battery. Etc, etc, ..

Such an invention. Within a big company, or as a startup, would just make Foveon obsolete over night.

And actually, such a sensor is what I am hoping for, and I assume many more.

Another threat would be gigapixel CFA sensor, not necessary Bayer, with some clever way of doing downsampling on chip to a nice number of output pixels. Then Foveon would have no advantages either.

But, it is probably some time before such a thing might happen. Until then, Sigma will continue to try to make some kind of success with their Foveon cameras.

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richard stone Senior Member • Posts: 2,603
Re: Get this: Sigma WILL produce a camera that beats the current DSLRs resolution wise.

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Omexis wrote:

Well I would like to think that is the future, I agree patents don't mean much, but if Sigma can do it, then why can't others?

The theory, among the Foveon/Sigma fans, is that a big company cannot do it, simply because an invention like Foveon would be stopped within a big company directly. It has too many disadvantages and would therefore not be an option. There is some merit to that theory, except ... they might decide to do it nevertheless.

No. I am a Foveon Fan, and that's not my theory. I think that Bayer makers think Bayer works well enough, for most people and for most purposes, well enough that there is no reason to do much more. And they have a huge investment in Bayer, and Foveon processing is a big pain in the neck anyway. They are content to let Sigma pursue the Foveon approach.

The major risk, for Sigma, would be if someone invents a three layer sensor, without the disadvantages of Foveon sensors. A sensor that detects RGB instead of X3 colors, and that is just as good (or better) as Bayer sensors at high ISO, which do not suck big loads of energy from the battery. Etc, etc, ..

People have "invented" plenty of three layered sensors. They just have not produced any. It is apparently very difficult to make a sensor like the Foveon sensor, get it to work in a camera, and why bother anyway?

Such an invention. Within a big company, or as a startup, would just make Foveon obsolete over night.

And if pigs had wings... Would they make airplanes obsolete?

And actually, such a sensor is what I am hoping for, and I assume many more.

What? You're waiting for a pig with wings? And hoping it will actually fly?

We only live here and now. But it's your choice to wait. Each day we get a little older.

The unfortunate reality may be that you can either get per pixel resolution, with low ISO sensors that filter by light penetration, or color mask filtered images, ala Bayer, that work with less light. It may be that the implementation of per pixel resolution requires more light. That seems to be what the equations and reality suggest.

Another threat would be gigapixel CFA sensor, not necessary Bayer, with some clever way of doing downsampling on chip to a nice number of output pixels. Then Foveon would have no advantages either.

And, so what? We should go buy Bayer now because someday Sigma/Foveon will be superseded?

But, it is probably some time before such a thing might happen. Until then, Sigma will continue to try to make some kind of success with their Foveon cameras.

Yes, and so what?

As to success for Sigma: what do you mean by "some kind of success?" To me that sounds like a meaningless expression, when considered carefully. Does it mean success considering the budget Sigma has? Success considering the huge advantages and product diversity of the competition? Does it mean success in the view of many buyers enjoying the camera? Success in terms of management's projections? Success in terms of adding some cachet to the lens line(s) produced by Sigma?

It is possible, by being vague enough, and by being somewhat careful, to write something that sounds significant yet means nothing, sort of like horoscopes. (No disrespect meant to horoscopes or astrology...)

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SigmaChrome Forum Pro • Posts: 10,015
Re: Get this: Sigma WILL produce a camera that beats the current DSLRs resolution wise.

richard stone wrote:


It is possible, by being vague enough, and by being somewhat careful, to write something that sounds significant yet means nothing, sort of like horoscopes. (No disrespect meant to horoscopes or astrology...)

I couldn't have put it better myself, Richard.

I think this is just Rolland's way of excusing himself from ever investing in a Sigma camera so that he might learn about Foveon from experience rather than theory.

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victorgv Senior Member • Posts: 1,568
Re: Oops Öywind

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Oops ... nope.

APS-C Foveon has currently, given some uninteresting percentage up or down, the same resolution as the highest resolution Bayer APS-C sensors. Its a draw there. Lets assume that Sigma releases an FF sensor. There is nothing that could convince me that it would best the best Bayer FF sensors with regard to resolution.

We can, of course, discus acutance. That Bayer sensor has some problems there.

But, Sony is not sleeping either. So, lets say the next generation APS-C is 40 MP and FF 80 MP. Just a guess. Might be more - might be less. Then the FF Foveon needs to be 40x3 MP, just to get even, and 50-60x3 MP to have a clear advantage, resolution wise.

So Öywind, would you bet on a 50+ MPx3 FF Sigma Foveon?

BTW - just looking at the Nokia multi mega chip in their phone. Maybe the next Bayer sensors are 200 MP. It is possible. Maybe not likely. But possible. You only have to invent some fast means of reading it, and also some bigger storages

Actually it will best Bayer and by a lot if they do not change pixel size it would be around 34x3 megapixels with the same noise level. so you will need roughly 55 mpx bayer and considering that noise get progressivly more when you go from d600 to d700 and d800...

Or they can do 24 x 3 which will beat d800 resolution wise and lover noise of the sensor.

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(unknown member) Contributing Member • Posts: 741
Woulda, coulda?

Roland Karlsson wrote:

... they might ....

... would be ... Etc, etc, ..

... would just make Foveon obsolete ...

... I am hoping for, and I assume many more.

... would be gigapixel CFA sensor, ... some clever way of doing ... Then Foveon would have no advantages either.

But, it is probably some time before such a thing might happen.

Wooly, fuzzy 'thinking'.

MOD Kendall Helmstetter Gelner Forum Pro • Posts: 20,074
Re: Get this: Sigma WILL produce a camera that beats the current DSLRs resolution wise.

Omexis wrote:

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

Omexis wrote:

1. Sigma do their own thing. The other manufacturers have already patented "Foveon" style sensors if rumors are correct and it won't be long until the others follow suit.

Others follow suit... with more patents that never lead to real products? How frightening for Sigma to compete against cameras that never ship and other people's random ideas of how to make a layered sensor that have never seen a production line or real world image capture.

Well I would like to think that is the future, I agree patents don't mean much, but if Sigma can do it, then why can't others?

Didn't say they can't.  Just that they haven't, and now they won't.  The entire camera industry is in major trouble, and literally unable to spend the R&D needed to bring a working multi-layer sensor to market at this point.

If Apple filed such a patent, I would start to think there might be a possibility.

2. Yes that was bad, due to sensor manufacturing defects, I guess low yield and possibly try to recuperate R&D costs bumped the price up, but I guess sigma had to start to sell the camera to generate profit, once the defects were worked out they could lower the price, but it put potential people off from buying it.

Nope (well the price being bad part was accurate, the rest totally baseless speculation that makes no sense given public facts).

What part was not accurate?

All parts (minus the one I mentioned).

and what public facts?

The claims against the actual price drops for one thing.  The cost of an entire camera drops by an order of magnitude because of vague problems in sensor manufacturing?  No.

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Omexis Contributing Member • Posts: 514
Re: Get this: Sigma WILL produce a camera that beats the current DSLRs resolution wise.

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

Omexis wrote:

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

Omexis wrote:

2. Yes that was bad, due to sensor manufacturing defects, I guess low yield and possibly try to recuperate R&D costs bumped the price up, but I guess sigma had to start to sell the camera to generate profit, once the defects were worked out they could lower the price, but it put potential people off from buying it.

Nope (well the price being bad part was accurate, the rest totally baseless speculation that makes no sense given public facts).

What part was not accurate?

All parts (minus the one I mentioned).

and what public facts?

The claims against the actual price drops for one thing. The cost of an entire camera drops by an order of magnitude because of vague problems in sensor manufacturing? No.

“We could not solve issues related to some of the manufacturing methods before the start of mass production, and the production cost ended up substantially exceeding our originally expected price. As a result, we had no choice but to set the price of the Sigma SD1 high,” said Kazuto Yamaki CEO of Sigma Corporation. “Since then, overcoming this situation has become the first priority for us and Foveon, and we have together made improvements to reduce production cost substantially … Although some of the manufacturing methods have been enhanced, the performance and characteristics of the sensor itself have not changed. “

I said defects, he said methods, maybe I should have chosen my wording more wisely

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Steven

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OP yvind Strm Veteran Member • Posts: 4,130
Kendall, you have slept in the class.

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

Omexis wrote:

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

Omexis wrote:

1. Sigma do their own thing. The other manufacturers have already patented "Foveon" style sensors if rumors are correct and it won't be long until the others follow suit.

Others follow suit... with more patents that never lead to real products? How frightening for Sigma to compete against cameras that never ship and other people's random ideas of how to make a layered sensor that have never seen a production line or real world image capture.

Well I would like to think that is the future, I agree patents don't mean much, but if Sigma can do it, then why can't others?

Didn't say they can't.  Just that they haven't, and now they won't.  The entire camera industry is in major trouble, and literally unable to spend the R&D needed to bring a working multi-layer sensor to market at this point.

If Apple filed such a patent, I would start to think there might be a possibility.

2. Yes that was bad, due to sensor manufacturing defects, I guess low yield and possibly try to recuperate R&D costs bumped the price up, but I guess sigma had to start to sell the camera to generate profit, once the defects were worked out they could lower the price, but it put potential people off from buying it.

Nope (well the price being bad part was accurate, the rest totally baseless speculation that makes no sense given public facts).

What part was not accurate?

All parts (minus the one I mentioned).

Wow, you havn't seen what Sigma CEO said about the manufacturing problems?

and what public facts?

The claims against the actual price drops for one thing.  The cost of an entire camera drops by an order of magnitude because of vague problems in sensor manufacturing?  No.

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OP yvind Strm Veteran Member • Posts: 4,130
Re: Get this: Sigma WILL produce a camera that beats the current DSLRs resolution wise.

Hello Halldor

While ther might be reasoning in business model and lens causes, I fail to see how SD15 sales have any bearing on a possible FF model. SD15 was at release a more than 3 year old camera.

  • SD15 was a hardware fix, beacuse Sigma could not fix the "blinkey" error of the SD14.
  • It was seriously delayed - it took Sigma 21 months from announcement to delivery
  • SD15 was close to a replica of the 3 year older SD14, a camera that already in 2008 lagged behind on some functions.

It never had a chance to sell in large numbers. A Sigma FF, with higher res than the D800, if price is reasonable, may sell more.

Halldor Eiriksson wrote:

I would love a FF Foveon, but I think it will not happen.  It would not sell, just look at SD15 sales. Add limited lens selection of FF Sigma lenses and the business model is even worse.

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OvinceZ
OvinceZ Senior Member • Posts: 2,715
Re: Get this: Sigma WILL produce a camera that beats the current DSLRs resolution wise.

I have a DP3M and am amazed at the detail it captures. Makes me want a larger sensor to capture even more detail. Sigma have shown they can build superb lenses at a reasonable price.

While they are at producing a FF Foveon Sensor (FFF) I would like to see a larger LCD with heaps of pixels so we can compose and check focus on it. A 5 inch screen with sufficient pixels to enlarge 14 times and see the image clearly. Make is so it can easily be seen in bright sunlight.

Did I mention to include a better processor to speed things up like 500%!

Vince

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OP yvind Strm Veteran Member • Posts: 4,130
Re: Oops Öywind

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Oops ... nope.

APS-C Foveon has currently, given some uninteresting percentage up or down, the same resolution as the highest resolution Bayer APS-C sensors. Its a draw there. Lets assume that Sigma releases an FF sensor. There is nothing that could convince me that it would best the best Bayer FF sensors with regard to resolution.

We can, of course, discus acutance. That Bayer sensor has some problems there.

But, Sony is not sleeping either. So, lets say the next generation APS-C is 40 MP and FF 80 MP. Just a guess. Might be more - might be less. Then the FF Foveon needs to be 40x3 MP, just to get even, and 50-60x3 MP to have a clear advantage, resolution wise.

So Öywind, would you bet on a 50+ MPx3 FF Sigma Foveon?

First, I think it will be the current sensor, scaled up to FF. Is that something like 34x3? In that case, marketing wise, it will be a problem for Sigma, because the majority consider 34 less than 36.

As I am sure Foveon are pushing the limits further, we will se a higher density sensor. 25% increase would give 42x3. 50% increase would be 68x3.

I think Nikon and Sony made the 36MP sensor together, with a time constraint on the Sony release. Next generation Bayer from Nikon/Sony is further ahead than Photokina 2014. Canon may jump the 36MP but not by much.

I only predict that the approximate resolution (with that uninteresting percentage of yours) of Sigma will beat the current Bayer, and retain the lead for maybe a year.

Then Bayer will leap, of course.

BTW - just looking at the Nokia multi mega chip in their phone. Maybe the next Bayer sensors are 200 MP. It is possible. Maybe not likely. But possible. You only have to invent some fast means of reading it, and also some bigger storages

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Øyvind

Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 27,509
Re: Get this: Sigma WILL produce a camera that beats the current DSLRs resolution wise.

richard stone wrote:

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Omexis wrote:

Well I would like to think that is the future, I agree patents don't mean much, but if Sigma can do it, then why can't others?

The theory, among the Foveon/Sigma fans, is that a big company cannot do it, simply because an invention like Foveon would be stopped within a big company directly. It has too many disadvantages and would therefore not be an option. There is some merit to that theory, except ... they might decide to do it nevertheless.

No. I am a Foveon Fan, and that's not my theory. I think that Bayer makers think Bayer works well enough, for most people and for most purposes, well enough that there is no reason to do much more. And they have a huge investment in Bayer, and Foveon processing is a big pain in the neck anyway. They are content to let Sigma pursue the Foveon approach.

Both theories might be right - they do not really care - but if they did care they would have a great difficulty internally to motivate the development, just because the new kind of sensor has several disadvantages that the marketing dpartment is not going to be able to handle.

The major risk, for Sigma, would be if someone invents a three layer sensor, without the disadvantages of Foveon sensors. A sensor that detects RGB instead of X3 colors, and that is just as good (or better) as Bayer sensors at high ISO, which do not suck big loads of energy from the battery. Etc, etc, ..

People have "invented" plenty of three layered sensors. They just have not produced any. It is apparently very difficult to make a sensor like the Foveon sensor, get it to work in a camera, and why bother anyway?

With invented I do not only mean make experiments and patent it, I mean really invented it, i.e. made it possible to produce. And I also said that the invention should eliminate the Foveon disadvantages. Have you onfo on such an invention?

Such an invention. Within a big company, or as a startup, would just make Foveon obsolete over night.

And if pigs had wings... Would they make airplanes obsolete?

I would never ride a pig over the atlantic.

And actually, such a sensor is what I am hoping for, and I assume many more.

What? You're waiting for a pig with wings? And hoping it will actually fly?

We only live here and now. But it's your choice to wait. Each day we get a little older.

I did not say "wait for". I said "hope for". It is not the same thing. I use the (very good) cameras I already have got. I am not all that young any more, so it is highly lkely that I will never benefit from that kind of sensor, maybe not even see one being invented. And maybe something even more interesting will surprise me. Who knows?

The unfortunate reality may be that you can either get per pixel resolution, with low ISO sensors that filter by light penetration, or color mask filtered images, ala Bayer, that work with less light. It may be that the implementation of per pixel resolution requires more light. That seems to be what the equations and reality suggest.

Another threat would be gigapixel CFA sensor, not necessary Bayer, with some clever way of doing downsampling on chip to a nice number of output pixels. Then Foveon would have no advantages either.

And, so what? We should go buy Bayer now because someday Sigma/Foveon will be superseded?

That is IMHO totally uninteresting. Bought electronic gadgets will always get obsolete some day, for one or another reason. That is how life is today, like it or not. I am talking about technology here and not products.

But, it is probably some time before such a thing might happen. Until then, Sigma will continue to try to make some kind of success with their Foveon cameras.

Yes, and so what?

As to success for Sigma: what do you mean by "some kind of success?" To me that sounds like a meaningless expression, when considered carefully. Does it mean success considering the budget Sigma has? Success considering the huge advantages and product diversity of the competition? Does it mean success in the view of many buyers enjoying the camera? Success in terms of management's projections? Success in terms of adding some cachet to the lens line(s) produced by Sigma?

With - some kind of success I mean that Sigma do define their own success. The Sigma cameras do not follow normal marketing rules as they are susedised by lens sales and mainly driven by the interest from the private owners. Normal success is making lots of money. But … in this case … who knows? It might just a a warm and fuzzy feeling for the owners for all I know.

It is possible, by being vague enough, and by being somewhat careful, to write something that sounds significant yet means nothing, sort of like horoscopes. (No disrespect meant to horoscopes or astrology...)

Personally I do not think you can give enough disrespect to astrology

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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 27,509
Re: Get this: Sigma WILL produce a camera that beats the current DSLRs resolution wise.

SigmaChrome wrote:

richard stone wrote:

It is possible, by being vague enough, and by being somewhat careful, to write something that sounds significant yet means nothing, sort of like horoscopes. (No disrespect meant to horoscopes or astrology...)

I couldn't have put it better myself, Richard.

I think this is just Rolland's way of excusing himself from ever investing in a Sigma camera so that he might learn about Foveon from experience rather than theory.

You could not refrain yourself from writing that, could you?  

BTW - I say it again. I am not all that fond of people writing to each other about someone in third person on an official forum. It is just not good manners.

If you want to say something about me - say it to me.

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