X-E2/X100s vs Nikon Df/D4

Started Nov 13, 2013 | Discussions
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57LowRider Senior Member • Posts: 3,841
Re: X-E2/X100s vs Nikon Df/D4
1

Mr Gadget wrote:

I am guessing that a larger FX DSLR with an equivalent zoom would have been fairly intrusive for this venue? Also, nothing beats having a great seat!

Good point. At that gig I was at, security laughed at my Fuji when asked about photo policy in the venue. "No pro cameras", they said and then looked at the Fuji "oh that's alright".

Meanwhile, the guy there with the Nikon DSLR had to come up with a pretty good reason (like Press or such) before he was allowed to use his camera, he got a very hard time from the boys with big boots.

 57LowRider's gear list:57LowRider's gear list
Fujifilm X-E1 Fujifilm X-T1 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 14mm F2.8 R Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS +10 more
Absolutic
Absolutic Veteran Member • Posts: 5,170
Re: X-E2/X100s vs Nikon Df/D4
1

Sal Baker wrote:

I don't trust Sony to stick with anything for very long

True so far, they seem to abandon every idea in couple years.  But it is their thing, if you read the recent interview with their chief camera designer, he said, "I want to have a new idea every six months."   The idea is for the Sony to keep inventing new exciting things and to push boundaries  they want to be the first (like with walkman).  That's Sony.   Producing lenses for a camera already invented - boring.   Making new things like camera lens that operates when attached to a cell phone - exciting.

The X-E2 is much more like I expected the Df to be as a retro approach. Small/light, fewer dials on top, aperture rings on the lenses, smaller lighter lenses due to the crop format, superb image quality, AF at least as good as the A7r, several manual focus aids in the VF, and gorgeous looks--more unified I think than the half retro look of the Df.

I already have a FF 21mp DSLR with big honkin' lenses for tripod and other work.

Sal

If you read the review of A7r on cameralabs site today, Gordon Lange seems to suggest that AF is so dreadful that it is only good for stationary objects in good light.   And Sony is not Fuji, don't expect them to keep issuing firmwares to increase AF speed 2 years after camera launch like with X100.

 Absolutic's gear list:Absolutic's gear list
Panasonic ZS100 Canon EOS 5D Olympus E-M1 Nikon D750 Sony Alpha 7R II +16 more
Joel Benford Regular Member • Posts: 143
Re: X-E2/X100s vs Nikon Df/D4
1

I've been wondering about this comparison myself, for slightly different reasons. This isn’t a direct answer, but I thought you might find it interesting/useful.

I like low light photography, especially indoor available light, and I have a thing for photographing in museums (flash not allowed). I often shoot in about EV 2-6 (e.g. ISO 3200 1/60s at f/1.8). I’ve been doing this for years, I used to use pushed film but now I have a Nex-6 with 35/1.8.

I find that the Nex noise performance is “mostly adequate” for me, but the X-E2/D4/Df would be better. But I've come to think the real issue is not so much image quality as getting the shot in the first place.

You have to get the thing in focus on your intended subject, before the subject goes away. It seems to me you need a few things for this:

- Fast/accurate AF, the obvious bit.

- Focus that works on moving subjects. At f/1.4, somebody breathing is a borderline “moving subject”, talking and laughing are definitely moving.

- Focus that works away from the centre, if you shoot like that. [Focus and recompose doesn’t work very well with thin DOF.]

- Controls to choose the focus point quickly. The Nex controls are hopeless, I must rely on face detect and hope it picks the right face. The D4 with twin joypads looks good to me.

Also, I’m getting much less use out of image stabilisation than I expected before I got it. It only works for camera motion, not subject motion. If I photograph someone who’s talking or laughing at 1/15 second, I get a blurry face and sharp objects off to one side.

So I think it’s about getting a good all round mix of high ISO, wide apertures, AF to use the wide apertures effectively, and controls to make the AF do what you want before you miss the shot.

Mr Gadget OP Senior Member • Posts: 1,973
Re: X-E2/X100s vs Nikon Df/D4

Absolutic wrote:

Sal Baker wrote:

I don't trust Sony to stick with anything for very long

True so far, they seem to abandon every idea in couple years. But it is their thing, if you read the recent interview with their chief camera designer, he said, "I want to have a new idea every six months." The idea is for the Sony to keep inventing new exciting things and to push boundaries they want to be the first (like with walkman). That's Sony. Producing lenses for a camera already invented - boring. Making new things like camera lens that operates when attached to a cell phone - exciting.

The X-E2 is much more like I expected the Df to be as a retro approach. Small/light, fewer dials on top, aperture rings on the lenses, smaller lighter lenses due to the crop format, superb image quality, AF at least as good as the A7r, several manual focus aids in the VF, and gorgeous looks--more unified I think than the half retro look of the Df.

I already have a FF 21mp DSLR with big honkin' lenses for tripod and other work.

Sal

If you read the review of A7r on cameralabs site today, Gordon Lange seems to suggest that AF is so dreadful that it is only good for stationary objects in good light. And Sony is not Fuji, don't expect them to keep issuing firmwares to increase AF speed 2 years after camera launch like with X100.

This is very well said. It summarizes my impressions of Sony very well. I am continually impressed with Fujifilms comittment to their customers and Kaizen philosphy, it makes you a believer.

-- hide signature --

Conrad
---------------------------------------------------
Show Low, Arizona

dmaclau Senior Member • Posts: 2,315
Re: X-E2/X100s vs Nikon Df/D4

as exciting as "revolutionary" is to write and read about, "evolutionary" is so very much better for our lives.  The first new exciting engine, transmission, computer...fun to read about, so sorry for you if you bought one.  3 years or so later when they figure out how to make these ideas work properly...that's when it gets interesting.

The X100S instead of an X200, the 2.0 firmware upgrade for the discontinued X100, the X-E2, perhaps soon an X-Pro2.  Thank you Fuji.

 dmaclau's gear list:dmaclau's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix X100 Fujifilm X-M1 Fujifilm X-Pro2 Samyang 8mm F2.8 UMC Fisheye
Mr Gadget OP Senior Member • Posts: 1,973
Re: X-E2/X100s vs Nikon Df/D4

Joel Benford wrote:

I've been wondering about this comparison myself, for slightly different reasons. This isn’t a direct answer, but I thought you might find it interesting/useful.

I like low light photography, especially indoor available light, and I have a thing for photographing in museums (flash not allowed). I often shoot in about EV 2-6 (e.g. ISO 3200 1/60s at f/1.8). I’ve been doing this for years, I used to use pushed film but now I have a Nex-6 with 35/1.8.

I find that the Nex noise performance is “mostly adequate” for me, but the X-E2/D4/Df would be better. But I've come to think the real issue is not so much image quality as getting the shot in the first place.

You have to get the thing in focus on your intended subject, before the subject goes away. It seems to me you need a few things for this:

  • Fast/accurate AF, the obvious bit.
  • Focus that works on moving subjects. At f/1.4, somebody breathing is a borderline “moving subject”, talking and laughing are definitely moving.
  • Focus that works away from the centre, if you shoot like that. [Focus and recompose doesn’t work very well with thin DOF.]
  • Controls to choose the focus point quickly. The Nex controls are hopeless, I must rely on face detect and hope it picks the right face. The D4 with twin joypads looks good to me.

Also, I’m getting much less use out of image stabilisation than I expected before I got it. It only works for camera motion, not subject motion. If I photograph someone who’s talking or laughing at 1/15 second, I get a blurry face and sharp objects off to one side.

So I think it’s about getting a good all round mix of high ISO, wide So apertures, AF to use the wide apertures effectively, and controls to make the AF do what you want before you miss the shot.

Great observations and very helpful to me. I guess that I am down to two choices now that I have pretty much convinced myself that the Fujifilm APSC 16 mpx sensor is capable of producing an image of mostly equal quality to the Df's 16mpx FX sensor it now comes down to evaluating how well the X-E2 focuses under low light at f1.4 to f4. I am thinking that it will be a foregone conclusion that the Df will have superb AF capability.

When it comes to size and bang for the buck, I am thinking the X system will win hands down.
I am looking forward to getting an X-E2 and the 35mm prime to evaluate low light AF!
--
Conrad
---------------------------------------------------
Show Low, Arizona

Sal Baker Veteran Member • Posts: 9,681
Re: X-E2/X100s vs Nikon Df/D4

Mr Gadget wrote:

Joel Benford wrote:

I've been wondering about this comparison myself, for slightly different reasons. This isn’t a direct answer, but I thought you might find it interesting/useful.

I like low light photography, especially indoor available light, and I have a thing for photographing in museums (flash not allowed). I often shoot in about EV 2-6 (e.g. ISO 3200 1/60s at f/1.8). I’ve been doing this for years, I used to use pushed film but now I have a Nex-6 with 35/1.8.

I find that the Nex noise performance is “mostly adequate” for me, but the X-E2/D4/Df would be better. But I've come to think the real issue is not so much image quality as getting the shot in the first place.

You have to get the thing in focus on your intended subject, before the subject goes away. It seems to me you need a few things for this:

  • Fast/accurate AF, the obvious bit.
  • Focus that works on moving subjects. At f/1.4, somebody breathing is a borderline “moving subject”, talking and laughing are definitely moving.
  • Focus that works away from the centre, if you shoot like that. [Focus and recompose doesn’t work very well with thin DOF.]
  • Controls to choose the focus point quickly. The Nex controls are hopeless, I must rely on face detect and hope it picks the right face. The D4 with twin joypads looks good to me.

Also, I’m getting much less use out of image stabilisation than I expected before I got it. It only works for camera motion, not subject motion. If I photograph someone who’s talking or laughing at 1/15 second, I get a blurry face and sharp objects off to one side.

So I think it’s about getting a good all round mix of high ISO, wide So apertures, AF to use the wide apertures effectively, and controls to make the AF do what you want before you miss the shot.

Great observations and very helpful to me. I guess that I am down to two choices now that I have pretty much convinced myself that the Fujifilm APSC 16 mpx sensor is capable of producing an image of mostly equal quality to the Df's 16mpx FX sensor it now comes down to evaluating how well the X-E2 focuses under low light at f1.4 to f4. I am thinking that it will be a foregone conclusion that the Df will have superb AF capability.

When it comes to size and bang for the buck, I am thinking the X system will win hands down.
I am looking forward to getting an X-E2 and the 35mm prime to evaluate low light AF!
-

Last night I went to IR and downloaded their famous table top desk test shot.  Try downloading raws for the D4 and X-E1 (or pro1) at ISO 1600.  I converted in Aperture.  Check the images side by side, any doubts about the 16mp X cameras will be gone.  Simiarity of sharpness and noise level is amazing at pixel level.  Leave the computer for a few minutes, come back and randomly click between the 2 images, you won't be able to tell them apart.  Then go to:

http://www.lenstip.com/1969-news-Fujifilm_FinePix_X-Pro1_-_sample_images.html

These files rival the FF 21mp images from my 5DII.  They up-rez beautifully and they're cleaner.

I may break my own rule and order the X-E2 before I actually hold one in my hand and try it out.

Sal

 Sal Baker's gear list:Sal Baker's gear list
Ricoh GR Canon EOS 5D Mark II Fujifilm X-E2 Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM +7 more
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