...put your money where your mouth is

Started Nov 11, 2013 | Discussions
olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,314
Re: Really?

JimPearce wrote:

Who would be foolish enough to start a camera company now, anyway?

I wouldn't hesitate a moment if I knew I could do it better than Nikon... like these DPR "experts" seem to be convinced of.

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,314
Re: ...put your money where your mouth is

John Motts wrote:

Most of the "armchair experts" couldn't even design an armchair!

Well said.

lorenzo de medici Regular Member • Posts: 206
Re: ...put your money where your mouth is

Really amazing how much forum traffic this one model is generating.  A lot more, I think, than the number of buyers will be.

I certainly won't be starting my own camera company, and I respect the many accomplishments of Nikon over the past 50 years.  At this point, though, I have a suggestion for a new name for the company.  Nicon.

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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,314
Re: Of course people should feel free to express ...

TOF guy wrote:

what they think of the latest Nikon release, positive and negatives.

Are you saying that members should not comment unless they start a company? Does that apply to all products we buy ? So we shouldn't comment on, say, GM having sold many cars with poor reliability records for years unless we're about to start our own car business

Surely that's NOT what he is saying, is he? Or is my interpretation of his post different to yours?

CFynn Veteran Member • Posts: 5,224
Re: + 1: Black Magic Cinema Camera Says Hello

Canadianguy wrote:

Common thread to me appears to be - build for the commercial market - ignore the consumer market - the rich folks with money to burn will buy your commercial products.

No need to market to the retail consumer - they will just complain that your product costs too much.

For camera bodies Nikon started out with only the S and SP rangefinder bodies with a (near) Contax mount, and then the F and Nikkomat. Everything was built well and many of those cameras are still working today.

Nikon really started to cater to the mass consumer market in 1979 with the launch of the Nikon EM and their E-series lenses.

If you wanted to start a camera company today I'm sure you could buy image sensors from Sony / Aptina / Toshiba / etc.; image processors from  Toshiba; shutter assembly from Seiko; EVF from Epson; use an embedded Linux distribution or Android for your operating system; other people would license you code for processing RAW or JPEG - if it isn't already available open source.

Put an F-mount (which is probably out of patent) on the camera and you wouldn't have to worry about lenses.

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antoineb Veteran Member • Posts: 6,625
funny but way too theoretical...

PixelMover wrote:

...if all these backseat 'camera designers' and 'managers' would actually put their money where their mouth is...

Why don't you start your own DSLR camera company.
You all seem to know exactly what 'we' want.
You know so much better than Nikon.
You all think you can make a better, smaller, faster Df for a grand less at half the weight, 2 card slots and still make a profit.

You know all the lenses we want and you know how much cheaper they should be.
Can't wait! Bring. It. On.

DO IT. Kickstart it. Ask Dragon's Den. Get a sugardaddy. Go and show us how brilliant you are and how stupid Nikon is. Aptina will happily sell you sensors if you buy enough.

I dare you to even design one on paper that actually works and fits all the electronics in a smaller body that is still simple enough to produce/assemble and still sturdy and durable.

How about you gut your D600 and try to squeeze all of that into a Nikon FM, since that is what you all seem to think Nikon should've done. Have a go. It'll be fun.

Do you guys REALLY think Nikon didn't consider ALL those things you are crying, cursing and moaning about? If it's not there, it is not there for a very good reason.

But if you are so convinced you can do better, let me get you started by suggesting some brand names:

Nican

Cakon

Leinon

Sonasonic

Olyny (my favourite)

Go on then.... off you go. Make history instead of hysteria.

Hey PixelMover - you make sense on the fact that no camera will ever feel "perfect" to most people.

But:

- you do not make sense, to me at least, on criticizing the critics. I think that criticism is a core factor behind progress. Ideally, constructive criticism but even even negative criticism is useful. As Shaw put it: "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

- you do not make sense at all, again to me at least, on the economics. Big cameras with big sensors and needing big lenses are a very narrow niche, and a fast shrinking niche, too. So I'm not sure what the average VC or PE fund would risk investing there - unless perhaps in a company aiming at pure luxury, like Leica (but with the risk that it can take quite some time to establish a comparable reputation and be able to command similar prices).

- I think that I least the example of the "1" suggests that no, Nikon does not always very clearly consider things even as basic as body ergonomics, or whether there is a market, or opening price points. But hopefully for the Df a better team was at work.

- at leasts the Sony example, suggests that IF YOU DO AWAY WITH AN OVF, it is quite possible to pack a 24x36 sensor inside a much smaller body than a Df.

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OP PixelMover Contributing Member • Posts: 750
Re: The meaning of...

photohp wrote:

PixelMover wrote:

photohp wrote:

You logic is all wrong. "Putting your money were your mouth is" means buying it or not buying.

...

Incorrect. The phrase 'to put one's money where one's mouth is has nothing to do with wallets and shopping.

It means to back up your wild claims with actions to show you can deliver on them.

My post was about people who openly claim to know better than Nikon, who claim they are better desgners, managers, developers, marketers. To them I said, show me what you can do.

It originated from people making wild boasts and claims and people then betting their own money against them on being able to show that they could actually deliver on those claims. In that contrext, my use of the idiom was correct.

It is easy to declare superiority from behind a keyboard, but how about proving it?

No mate, you go it wrong. As I said in this case the way this saying applies is for those who support it to buy it and prove that is a good camera, and for those who do, use something else to show the opposite.

I -respectfully- disagree. You can't just change the original meaning of an idiom/proverb and claim that because it now suits your interpretation, the use is correct. I can use a pair of pliers to hammer a nail into the wall and it will work, but that doesn't mean it is now a hammer.

In your situation, with regards to buying cameras, the appropriate use would be if someone is boasting about pre-ordering 4 Df bodies and if someone calls him on that, he actually goes out and buys 4 to prove he was not boasting.

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OP PixelMover Contributing Member • Posts: 750
projecting much, are we?

If you believe my post was trolling, fair enough (even if you are mistaken, you are entitled to your own opinion), but at least have the common courtesy to explain why...
I'd say the real troll is someone who goes around calling other people trolls but not having the guts to explain how exactly you think I'm trolling

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LTZ470
LTZ470 Forum Pro • Posts: 11,926
Re: Sony is way ahead...

You can already buy the RX1...

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911Tyson1 Regular Member • Posts: 274
Re: ...put your money where your mouth is

PixelMover wrote:

...if all these backseat 'camera designers' and 'managers' would actually put their money where their mouth is...

Why don't you start your own DSLR camera company.
You all seem to know exactly what 'we' want.
You know so much better than Nikon.
You all think you can make a better, smaller, faster Df for a grand less at half the weight, 2 card slots and still make a profit.

You know all the lenses we want and you know how much cheaper they should be.
Can't wait! Bring. It. On.

DO IT. Kickstart it. Ask Dragon's Den. Get a sugardaddy. Go and show us how brilliant you are and how stupid Nikon is. Aptina will happily sell you sensors if you buy enough.

I dare you to even design one on paper that actually works and fits all the electronics in a smaller body that is still simple enough to produce/assemble and still sturdy and durable.

How about you gut your D600 and try to squeeze all of that into a Nikon FM, since that is what you all seem to think Nikon should've done. Have a go. It'll be fun.

Do you guys REALLY think Nikon didn't consider ALL those things you are crying, cursing and moaning about? If it's not there, it is not there for a very good reason.

But if you are so convinced you can do better, let me get you started by suggesting some brand names:

Nican

Cakon

Leinon

Sonasonic

Olyny (my favourite)

Go on then.... off you go. Make history instead of hysteria.

I love it!

Do you think Sonycan is taken already? Checking the registration site right now.

scokill Veteran Member • Posts: 5,003
Re: ...put your money where your mouth is

People want everything they want in one package at the price they want to pay.  Give them that and they will be happy.

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marike6 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,088
That's exactly what Nick Woodman did with the GoPro
1

What the OP is talking about, designing and building your own camera to meet your requirements and specifications, is exactly what Nick Woodman did with the GoPro action camera.  Now he's on the Forbes List as one of America's top billionaires.

He's a surfer/entrepreneur living in California who saw a need for wearable camera. So he designed and built one. Fast forward 10 years later and GoPro is the number one selling action camera in the world, used by everyone from competitive athletes, news agencies and cinematographers to marine biologists.

60 Minutes had an excellent profile on Woodman and his GoPro camera this past Sunday. Inspiring success story, and definitely worth watching. Good stuff.

GoPro's Video Revolution

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wboVor218ds

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(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,853
Re: That's exactly what Nick Woodman did with the GoPro

marike6 wrote:

What the OP is talking about, designing and building your own camera to meet your requirements and specifications, is exactly what Nick Woodman did with the GoPro action camera.  Now he's on the Forbes List as one of America's top billionaires.

He's a surfer/entrepreneur living in California who saw a need for wearable camera. So he designed and built one. Fast forward 10 years later and GoPro is the number one selling action camera in the world, used by everyone from competitive athletes, news agencies and cinematographers to marine biologists.

60 Minutes had an excellent profile on Woodman and his GoPro camera this past Sunday. Inspiring success story, and definitely worth watching. Good stuff.

GoPro's Video Revolution

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wboVor218ds

The wearable video camera market was pretty non-existent back then and is only now becoming a competitive market.

I think the primarily stills community is a bit more mature.  What the OP was suggesting wasn't creating a new type of video camera, but creating a new stills camera that can compete in a very saturated and mature market.  Those are two extremely different things.

If a new type of stills/video camera can be created then we might be having a different discussion.  Some have tried with that wearable life camera (whatever it's called) and the Canon N or even Lytro or various 3D cameras, but none of them has really gone anywhere.  How about that ball camera?  That's neat, but probably not very useful.  How about a drone that is designed to follow you around video recording you for hours?  Call it the DronePro.

marike6 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,088
Re: That's exactly what Nick Woodman did with the GoPro

howardroark wrote:

marike6 wrote:

What the OP is talking about, designing and building your own camera to meet your requirements and specifications, is exactly what Nick Woodman did with the GoPro action camera. Now he's on the Forbes List as one of America's top billionaires.

He's a surfer/entrepreneur living in California who saw a need for wearable camera. So he designed and built one. Fast forward 10 years later and GoPro is the number one selling action camera in the world, used by everyone from competitive athletes, news agencies and cinematographers to marine biologists.

60 Minutes had an excellent profile on Woodman and his GoPro camera this past Sunday. Inspiring success story, and definitely worth watching. Good stuff.

GoPro's Video Revolution

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wboVor218ds

The wearable video camera market was pretty non-existent back then and is only now becoming a competitive market.

The wearable video or action camera was non-existent until Woodman had a great idea that caught on like wildfire.

I think the primarily stills community is a bit more mature. What the OP was suggesting wasn't creating a new type of video camera, but creating a new stills camera that can compete in a very saturated and mature market. Those are two extremely different things.

The stills community is not more mature than the video community where you have some of the most innovative, high end gear like the Arri Alexa, RED Epic doing battle with Sony and Canon.

If a new type of stills/video camera can be created then we might be having a different discussion. Some have tried with that wearable life camera (whatever it's called) and the Canon N or even Lytro or various 3D cameras, but none of them has really gone anywhere.

Actually if you watch 60 minutes piece on GoPro, Woodman's first prototype was a wearable still cameras.

Ricoh now has the Theta, a 360 degree camera, kind of cool.  But the point is, there is no difference that there is no limitation because of the maturity of the still market vs the video market. That's arguable.  But I would imagine any limitations would disappear pretty quickly with a one thing:  a good idea that adds something new, some functionality that allows people to do great and interesting things. Like the GoPro did.

How about that ball camera? That's neat, but probably not very useful. How about a drone that is designed to follow you around video recording you for hours? Call it the DronePro.

DronePro. Yes we are headed in that direction and it's not all good especially for privacy advocates.   But yes, you can buy a helicopter from B&H and send up your camera or a GoPro.  But flying them is not as easy as it looks.

Anyway, the GoPro story is excellent.  That guy is have too great of a life. Handsome billionaire who spends his time building and testing cameras and surfing.  All from a great idea and good follow through.

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Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 17,973
Re: ...put your money where your mouth is

PixelMover wrote:

...if all these backseat 'camera designers' and 'managers' would actually put their money where their mouth is...

I think these are mostly attempts to impress others with what they want in a camera. "All I want is image quality like Leica in a package the size of a Fuji X10 with a line of compact zooms and ISO good to 12,800. Why can't anyone make that?' Ah the poor camera conneiseur, nobody makes a camera good enough for them.

Michael Firstlight Veteran Member • Posts: 3,431
Re: ...put your money where your mouth is

Sounds too much like a tampon camera.

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OP PixelMover Contributing Member • Posts: 750
Re: ...put your money where your mouth is

That pretty much sums it up.

I have actually witnessed somebody sell his D200* for next to nothing out of pure rage and disappointment when the D3 came out and it was only 12mp, while Canon had the 16.7mp 1DS mkII.... He then switched to Pentax, because he was angry at Nikon, hated Canon because he loved Nikon, so chose Pentax....

Can't argue with these people... And if you do they just call you a troll

(*edit: It may not have been a D200, can't recall exactly, but he rage-sold a D-body...)

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