How good is 24meg realy ?

Started Nov 10, 2013 | Discussions
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Donald B
Donald B Veteran Member • Posts: 6,474
How good is 24meg realy ?

As every one knows I shoot with a k7 as well as some compacts, most of the test shots we see are of contrasty well difined detail subjects, the reason I havnt upgraded is due to the great rendering of skin tones that the k7 produces, I shot a dance school this weekend using the 7100 and k7 using both jpeg and flash wb on both cameras, the d7100 did a great job overall but I have to wonder is 24 meg to much or was the 7100 designed for detail rather than texture detail the photos looked fabulous but people are buying these cameras to do large crops ?.

these are %300 crops

cheers don

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Pentax K7, Panasonic fz150, Olympus XZ1, my main toys.

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awaldram
awaldram Forum Pro • Posts: 12,654
Re: How good is 24meg realy ?
5

Donald B wrote:

As every one knows I shoot with a k7 as well as some compacts, most of the test shots we see are of contrasty well difined detail subjects, the reason I havnt upgraded is due to the great rendering of skin tones that the k7 produces, I shot a dance school this weekend using the 7100 and k7 using both jpeg and flash wb on both cameras, the d7100 did a great job overall but I have to wonder is 24 meg to much or was the 7100 designed for detail rather than texture detail the photos looked fabulous but people are buying these cameras to do large crops ?.

these are %300 crops

cheers don

-- hide signature --

Pentax K7, Panasonic fz150, Olympus XZ1, my main toys.

Three issues here

1 both crops are the same size yet 1 camera should produce 1:1 crops nearly twice the size of the other (14mp Vs 24) so at a guess you have reduce the 7100 by 2X then expanded by 3x and are surprised it fell apart ??

2 300% crop! so 200% of these image are interpolated pixels not produced by the camera !

So any results are more todo with the PC than camera

3 left hand image d file naming infers its a Sony !!!

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awaldram
awaldram Forum Pro • Posts: 12,654
Re: How good is 24meg realy ?
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Rod McD Veteran Member • Posts: 5,001
Re: How good is 24meg realy ?

Hi Don,

I would have thought that a 50% increase in resolution was worth having if you need to upgrade. My K5 is 60% up on my old K10D. 24mpx is +50% on the 16mpx of my K5. (And 36mpx is +50% more on 24mpx.)  While any increase has an edge, I think 50% is probably what I would see as the significant step up that might make an upgrade worthwhile.

Is it needed, is it worth having? I think that depends on several things. One needs to recognise that having a sensor doesn't produce images. An image pipeline does - and that means lens, senor, and processor of matching capability. And it depends on usage. If you view only on 4X6" prints and an 11" laptop, then 24mpx is overkill. OTOH, if you do print big, even occasionally, it may be very much worthwhile.

It's interesting to have a look at different sensors on the IR comparator tool - if you like you could compare the K5 and K10, or K3 and K5, or other cameras with a 50% increase in sensor resolution (eg the Nikon D3X & D800).

Cheers,

Rod

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Donald B
Donald B OP Veteran Member • Posts: 6,474
Re: How good is 24meg realy ?

I was just talking to a friend of mine that's been a world class pro for 40 years and he understands my logic perfectly, he him self confessors to using the latest software to increase file sizes so he can print bill boards and bus stops and agrees you don't need the large sensors. he said the days of mf are gone.

cheers don

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Pentax K7, Panasonic fz150, Olympus XZ1, my main toys.

Donald B
Donald B OP Veteran Member • Posts: 6,474
Re: How good is 24meg realy ?

awaldram wrote:

Donald B wrote:

As every one knows I shoot with a k7 as well as some compacts, most of the test shots we see are of contrasty well difined detail subjects, the reason I havnt upgraded is due to the great rendering of skin tones that the k7 produces, I shot a dance school this weekend using the 7100 and k7 using both jpeg and flash wb on both cameras, the d7100 did a great job overall but I have to wonder is 24 meg to much or was the 7100 designed for detail rather than texture detail the photos looked fabulous but people are buying these cameras to do large crops ?.

these are %300 crops

cheers don

-- hide signature --

Pentax K7, Panasonic fz150, Olympus XZ1, my main toys.

Three issues here

1 both crops are the same size yet 1 camera should produce 1:1 crops nearly twice the size of the other (14mp Vs 24) so at a guess you have reduce the 7100 by 2X then expanded by 3x and are surprised it fell apart ??

2 300% crop! so 200% of these image are interpolated pixels not produced by the camera !

So any results are more todo with the PC than camera

3 left hand image d file naming infers its a Sony !!!

sorry Andrew but nothing beats real world photos, don't care how much logic is applied. im going to reduce my k7 shots down to 2meg for printing and wont loose any detail even printing a 3 foot poster. I will post some full size files soon. oh I forgot to mention my k7 was not shot at full quality neither ?

cheers don

-- hide signature --

Pentax K7, Panasonic fz150, Olympus XZ1, my main toys.

Rod McD Veteran Member • Posts: 5,001
Re: How good is 24 meg realy ?

Hi Don,

I shoot lots of things but nature and landscape are my main interests.  Landscape photographers and appreciators are notorious for viewing large photos at closer than usual viewing distances.  The preferred image seems to be (usually, but not always) the one that looks like you're looking out a window into the real landscape.  I've printed from my K5 images and I find them better than my 35mm slides.  I think they start to compete with medium format, but my better 6X7 trannies still have the edge on them for 12X18" and 16X20" prints.  My 4X5" trannies still beat everything else.

Where's this going? Well some of us are still interested in larger sensors and higher mpx.  I don't understand up-scaling.  How can you create what isn't there?  I don't print large all the time, but when I do, I want them to give me at least that medium format look.  So, I'm personally taking an interest in the 36mpx Sony A7r to complement my DSLR system.  The combination of a small, light, sealed, high res body that I can use with my best Pentax and other lenses and with movements is very attractive.  And when I don't want huge file sizes, I can simply shoot crop or turn down the resolution.

Horses for courses.

Cheers, Rod

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Donald B
Donald B OP Veteran Member • Posts: 6,474
Re: How good is 24 meg realy ?

have a look at these. a7r,800e,humble k7. all extreme crops of half body portraits I downloaded and cropped

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MightyMike Forum Pro • Posts: 36,317
Re: How good is 24 meg realy ?
1

You are comparing apples to UFO's... there is nothing remotely similar about the camera settings, lenses used, lighting used, people used, composition or pose. Never judge a camera by some random persons photos taken by that camera. If you truly want an accurate portrayal without doing your own perfect side by side test then check DXO's charts only at the screen setting and not the print setting. that will give you a pixel for pixel difference between the 2 cameras. Print will give you a perceptual difference which can be misleading.

for a start... Check SNR, DR, Tonal Range and Colour Sensitivity at the screen setting, that will give you a good idea as to what changed between the K-7 and the modern 24mp sensors, not perfect as the K-3 hasn't been DXO'd yet.

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/865|0/%28brand%29/Nikon/%28appareil2%29/615|0/%28brand2%29/Pentax

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Rod McD Veteran Member • Posts: 5,001
Re: How good is 24 meg realy ?
2

Hi again Don,

Sorry but trying to compare these cameras by cropped images does my head in. Crops of eyes have little to do with what I do.   I don't know what lenses were used or what conditions they were taken in. And the FLs and apertures were quite different.  I prefer the IR comparator tool.  That way I can see the same image shot by different cameras and look at the outcomes in any way I choose.

I didn't pick my K5 lightly.  I did some research  - on its feature set, the lens range, some reviews and its performance.  And I liked it.  I'm considering the A7r in the same way - no final decision made yet.

I guess another way of looking at all this is that a camera is a luxury appliance, and we buy what we like (within our budget, and perhaps a bit outside of it!).  Photography is not essential to life.  No-one needs a camera.  Even pros could do other work.  Most of the world's population can't take any photos at all.  Most that can use a phone.  And of those that have a camera, the majority have a compact.  We're all niche players in these forums.  We're not here for a long - I think I'll go with my belief structure (illusions, delusions or otherwise) and buy one I like.  It'll have a high res sensor.  There's no substitute for simply liking a camera to get you out there enjoying it.....

Cheers, Rod

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Ian Stuart Forsyth
Ian Stuart Forsyth Senior Member • Posts: 2,751
Re: How good is 24 meg realy ?

Donald B wrote:

have a look at these. a7r,800e,humble k7. all extreme crops of half body portraits I downloaded and cropped

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Sorry but what is this to show, only thing I can see is under different conditions different cameras take different photos, if this was your test then it’s a success .

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Unexpresivecanvas Senior Member • Posts: 1,158
Re: How good is 24meg realy ?

Donald B wrote:

As every one knows I shoot with a k7 as well as some compacts, most of the test shots we see are of contrasty well difined detail subjects, the reason I havnt upgraded is due to the great rendering of skin tones that the k7 produces, I shot a dance school this weekend using the 7100 and k7 using both jpeg and flash wb on both cameras, the d7100 did a great job overall but I have to wonder is 24 meg to much or was the 7100 designed for detail rather than texture detail the photos looked fabulous but people are buying these cameras to do large crops ?.

these are %300 crops

cheers don

-- hide signature --

Pentax K7, Panasonic fz150, Olympus XZ1, my main toys.

Sorry to ask.

Is this an exercise on what other people call "pixel peeping"?

Thanks.

UE

DRabbit
DRabbit Veteran Member • Posts: 4,721
Megapixels shmegapixels
6

To double the resolution of a 15mp camera, you need to multiply 15 x 4. You would need a 60mp camera to double the resolution.

The difference between the K3s 24mp and the K7s 15mp is about 1300 pixels on the widest side. It's not a significant difference.

What is of more importance is the overall image quality of a more current camera. In theory, processing gets better, improvements are made to noise performance, the camera may be faster or focus more accurately, etc. etc. MP shouldn't be your gauge on whether to upgrade or not. At least not at this point in 2013. I've printed VERY large from 8mp cameras with excellent results, and recently with 16mp camera with outstanding results… The 10mp files from a much older Leica M8 can produce beautiful large prints. There are more important reasons to upgrade (sometimes) other than Megapixel counts.

24mp in green, 16mp in white.

Amy

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Donald B
Donald B OP Veteran Member • Posts: 6,474
Re: Megapixels shmegapixels

DRabbit wrote:

To double the resolution of a 15mp camera, you need to multiply 15 x 4. You would need a 60mp camera to double the resolution.

The difference between the K3s 24mp and the K7s 15mp is about 1300 pixels on the widest side. It's not a significant difference.

What is of more importance is the overall image quality of a more current camera. In theory, processing gets better, improvements are made to noise performance, the camera may be faster or focus more accurately, etc. etc. MP shouldn't be your gauge on whether to upgrade or not. At least not at this point in 2013. I've printed VERY large from 8mp cameras with excellent results, and recently with 16mp camera with outstanding results… The 10mp files from a much older Leica M8 can produce beautiful large prints. There are more important reasons to upgrade (sometimes) other than Megapixel counts.

24mp in green, 16mp in white.

Amy

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cheers for the picture, most people just don't get it ! their isn't much difference, you would think an upgrade to 24 meg is some kind of magic. funny how no one else posts any photos they have taken themselves, but are not shy in offering their opinions to some who does.

cheers don

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Pentax K7, Panasonic fz150, Olympus XZ1, my main toys.

Donald B
Donald B OP Veteran Member • Posts: 6,474
Re: How good is 24 meg realy ?
1

MightyMike wrote:

You are comparing apples to UFO's... there is nothing remotely similar about the camera settings, lenses used, lighting used, people used, composition or pose. Never judge a camera by some random persons photos taken by that camera. If you truly want an accurate portrayal without doing your own perfect side by side test then check DXO's charts only at the screen setting and not the print setting. that will give you a pixel for pixel difference between the 2 cameras. Print will give you a perceptual difference which can be misleading.

for a start... Check SNR, DR, Tonal Range and Colour Sensitivity at the screen setting, that will give you a good idea as to what changed between the K-7 and the modern 24mp sensors, not perfect as the K-3 hasn't been DXO'd yet.

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/865|0/%28brand%29/Nikon/%28appareil2%29/615|0/%28brand2%29/Pentax

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Mike from Canada
"I am not a great photographer! God is a great creator! All I do is capture His creation with the tools He has provided me."
'I like to think so far outside the box that it would require a telephoto lens just to see the box!' ~ 'My Quote :)'
http://www.michaelfastphotography.com/galleries/VP-BDI_3a.jpg
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everyone has eyes, don't need a sales site to tell me the difference in photo quality, even my 75 yo mother can see the difference , and can only see out of one eye.

cheers don

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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 25,735
Re: K3 >> K5 according to IR image comparometer @ ISO 100

Rod McD wrote:

It's interesting to have a look at different sensors on the IR comparator tool -

The K3 is MUCH better at ISO 100 than K5. I really wonder if the difference can be that large?

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fotografos
fotografos Contributing Member • Posts: 732
Re: How good is 24meg realy ?
1

Donald B wrote:

I was just talking to a friend of mine that's been a world class pro for 40 years and he understands my logic perfectly, he him self confessors to using the latest software to increase file sizes so he can print bill boards and bus stops and agrees you don't need the large sensors. he said the days of mf are gone.

cheers don

It's been a while since i've been here and I drop in for a few minutes to see how well the K3's been received and I read this... Are you kidding me???

.bill

Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 25,735
Re: How good is 24 meg realy ?

Donald B wrote:

everyone has eyes, don't need a sales site to tell me the difference in photo quality, even my 75 yo mother can see the difference , and can only see out of one eye.

Seriously - those eye images were taken under so different conditions that nothing can be said.

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Donald B
Donald B OP Veteran Member • Posts: 6,474
Re: How good is 24meg realy ?

fotografos wrote:

Donald B wrote:

I was just talking to a friend of mine that's been a world class pro for 40 years and he understands my logic perfectly, he him self confessors to using the latest software to increase file sizes so he can print bill boards and bus stops and agrees you don't need the large sensors. he said the days of mf are gone.

cheers don

It's been a while since i've been here and I drop in for a few minutes to see how well the K3's been received and I read this... Are you kidding me???

.bill

in what regards, am I missing something ? if you have something to say, say it with a comparison photo. Oh I forgot one of your own not from a web site.

cheers don

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James O'Neill Veteran Member • Posts: 4,265
Re: Megapixels shmegapixels
3

Very true.

What most people don't get is that however you increase the number of pixels you're not increasing the resolution linearly - you're recording the image laid down by the lens with greater fidelity.

What the images which kicked the thread off prove (if anything) is that whilst 24MP should be better *if all other things are equal* in reality they aren't: the lens, the availablity of stabilization, photographer technique, AA filter, the processing, all end up contributing to the final image. If these are strong 14MP is plenty, heck I've just passed the 10th anniversary of getting my *ist-D and 6 MP stands up pretty well.  Given a choice between a K3 body a 6MP sensor or *ist-D with 24MP I'd take the K3 - the number of cases where I needed more MP has been negligable. The number of shots I've got with newer cameras that I wouldn't have attempted with older ones is significant.

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