Rumoured Pentax FF : follow classic mz5n

Started Nov 3, 2013 | Discussions
OP jacketpotato Senior Member • Posts: 1,039
follow Df Re: Rumoured Pentax FF : follow classic mz5n

Scrap MZ5n retro FF Pentax should look as Nikon Df

dantonvb Forum Member • Posts: 58
Re: But my vote goes to:
maxola67
maxola67 Regular Member • Posts: 123
Re: Rumoured Pentax FF : follow classic mz5n

Let them do it but with all manual focus and NO video!

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Barry Pearson
Barry Pearson Veteran Member • Posts: 7,656
Re: Rumoured Pentax FF : follow classic mz5n

lol101 wrote:

Yay!

Bring back aperture rings!!

What do they provide that the front dial doesn't? (Apart from the need for lenses that happen to have aperture rings, which most of mine don't).

(You may be the wrong person to ask, because your request didn't look serious!)

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Barry Pearson
Barry Pearson Veteran Member • Posts: 7,656
Re: Rumoured Pentax FF : follow classic mz5n

JeffAHayes wrote:

I realize this thread is largely IN JEST, but at any rate, I'm going on the record to say that...

I, for one, am NO FAN of this "retro trend" in digital cameras, with new cameras coming out with old-style dials on them that give FEWER options (such as 1/8 second -- 1/1000 second, plus B, or thereabouts), and similar limitations, and usually cost as much as or MORE THAN comparable FF cameras with all the features we've come to expect (I'm thinking specifically of recent models by Fuji and Sony).

As long as Pentax has taken to get to FF, IF Ricoh DOES come out with a "K-1" next year, I, for one (and I think I speak FOR MANY) hope it will be something like a FF version of the K-3, except maybe with another new feature or two (or improvement, etc.).

+1.

Perhaps have a "Retro" position on the Exposure Mode dial which simply makes most of the features of the camera unavailable, for people who can't cope! (Or have User Mode 1 pre-programmed as "Retro").

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noshea Regular Member • Posts: 127
Re: Rumoured Pentax FF : follow classic mz5n

JeffAHayes wrote:

I realize this thread is largely IN JEST, but at any rate, I'm going on the record to say that...

I, for one, am NO FAN of this "retro trend" in digital cameras, with new cameras coming out with old-style dials on them that give FEWER options (such as 1/8 second -- 1/1000 second, plus B, or thereabouts), and similar limitations, and usually cost as much as or MORE THAN comparable FF cameras with all the features we've come to expect (I'm thinking specifically of recent models by Fuji and Sony).

As long as Pentax has taken to get to FF, IF Ricoh DOES come out with a "K-1" next year, I, for one (and I think I speak FOR MANY) hope it will be something like a FF version of the K-3, except maybe with another new feature or two (or improvement, etc.).

After all, That's still what the majority are producing, and what I think most camera buyers want. And I think if Ricoh is going to try to earn back a decent share of the market for Pentax it DOES NOT need to go off in eclectic directions.

Jeff

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A word is worth 1/1000th of a picture... Maybe that's why I use so many words!

Let's start from the facts that:

a)  Ricoh does not have the resources to throw at FF that SoCanikon does

b) They probably cannot afford to test the market with several varied models

d) Pentax users are known for being more happy than perhaps any other group with the ergonomics (read K-7 upward) that Pentax have diligently nailed down and refined;

So, le's make our expectations prudent. Pentax users can only get one shot at an FF.

The following would win commendations from existing Pentax user base and probably attract some of the Nikon folk sore about the pig's ear made of the Df (camera and pricing):

A slightly larger K-3 body, STILL OVF with an FF sensor (expect them to use existing Sony/Toshiba 24MP stock), probably having to drop IBIS (or maybe not?) and adding a couple of incremental features (my vote would be for a humungous, interchangeable split-screen OVF).

You'd still have an outstanding, tried and tested body. You can have it in APS-C or FF or both, with the same MP count and with FF say up to 20% larger body but still competive with others in its class d800, D610, 6D,  etc. Pentax could probably charge up to £1,000 premium against the K-3 though because they are keen on price, at around £1,800 they would sell a lot. In almost every respect (except an incomplete FF lens line-up - also needs filling) this FF would be superior and better value for money than its mainstream competitors. Not for the first time.

I'm not convinced a brace of f2.8 zooms are the way to go with a compact system but a sensibly priced FA 24 F2.8 would do the minimum to round out the FF prime lens offering (if you want state of the art AF, go to Nikon). Customers should be picking Pentax because it offers a distinctive approach, not the same one.

It's not visionary. It's not ambitious. No need. I'll have two of the K-1, one of the K-3. And I will sell my Nikon FF gear.

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 1,549
Re: Rumoured Pentax FF : follow classic mz5n

Imagine a ME Super as a FF digital, exactly the same including LED's and mechanical self timer!!!

Now I'd buy one of those for the viewfinder alone

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Simon
Legacy lens lover
Anarcho-primitivist and avid anti-technology advocate

noshea Regular Member • Posts: 127
Re: Rumoured Pentax FF : follow classic mz5n

Simon Devlin wrote:

Imagine a ME Super as a FF digital, exactly the same including LED's and mechanical self timer!!!

Now I'd buy one of those for the viewfinder alone

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Simon
Legacy lens lover
Anarcho-primitivist and avid anti-technology advocate

Imagining is all we'll be doing on that idea (and perhaps any other FF idea!).

Seriously, I picked up an ME Super last month and love the experience of shooting with it. Hilariously, my FA 31 Limited is rubbish on it (while being fabulous on crop-sensor cameras).

ennacac
ennacac Senior Member • Posts: 2,007
Re: Rumoured Pentax FF : follow classic mz5n
1

Not plastic, interchangeable viewfinders!

Barry Pearson
Barry Pearson Veteran Member • Posts: 7,656
Re: Rumoured Pentax FF : follow classic mz5n

noshea wrote:

Let's start from the facts that:

a) Ricoh does not have the resources to throw at FF that SoCanikon does

b) They probably cannot afford to test the market with several varied models

d) Pentax users are known for being more happy than perhaps any other group with the ergonomics (read K-7 upward) that Pentax have diligently nailed down and refined;

So, le's make our expectations prudent. Pentax users can only get one shot at an FF.

The following would win commendations from existing Pentax user base and probably attract some of the Nikon folk sore about the pig's ear made of the Df (camera and pricing):

A slightly larger K-3 body, STILL OVF with an FF sensor (expect them to use existing Sony/Toshiba 24MP stock), probably having to drop IBIS (or maybe not?) and adding a couple of incremental features (my vote would be for a humungous, interchangeable split-screen OVF).

IBIS is a must. Otherwise so many K-mount FF lenses wouldn't have image stabilisation.

I suspect the K-3 body is already big enough. But I doubt if 24 MP is enough - that sounds like a cop-out.

You'd still have an outstanding, tried and tested body. You can have it in APS-C or FF or both, with the same MP count and with FF say up to 20% larger body but still competive with others in its class d800, D610, 6D, etc. Pentax could probably charge up to £1,000 premium against the K-3 though because they are keen on price, at around £1,800 they would sell a lot. In almost every respect (except an incomplete FF lens line-up - also needs filling) this FF would be superior and better value for money than its mainstream competitors. Not for the first time.

I'm not convinced a brace of f2.8 zooms are the way to go with a compact system but a sensibly priced FA 24 F2.8 would do the minimum to round out the FF prime lens offering (if you want state of the art AF, go to Nikon). Customers should be picking Pentax because it offers a distinctive approach, not the same one.

Zooms are very important. I'm not the only one who mainly uses zooms, with primes "filling in" for special cases. But - they don't have to be f/2.8 zooms. I've managed for years building my system around a core set of f/4 zooms, any of which can be used wide open.

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Petroglyph
Petroglyph Veteran Member • Posts: 5,894
Re: Rumoured Pentax FF : follow classic mz5n
1

Barry Pearson wrote:

noshea wrote:

Let's start from the facts that:

a) Ricoh does not have the resources to throw at FF that SoCanikon does

Ricoh is larger than Nikon

IBIS is a must. Otherwise so many K-mount FF lenses wouldn't have image stabilisation.

I suspect the K-3 body is already big enough. But I doubt if 24 MP is enough - that sounds like a cop-out.

I think Ricoh recently said they plan to use the K3 body for a future FF offering.  (Maybe I imagined it).  My impression of Ricoh is they are swinging for the fences every time now, they'll use the best sensor they can obtain and are probably prototyping the 36MP with plans to use whatever improvements Sony can make by the time of launch.  Same sensor in a digital LX? hmm, if they get the pricing correct they'd sell a bunch of those.

Cheers.

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noshea Regular Member • Posts: 127
Re: Rumoured Pentax FF : follow classic mz5n

Petroglyph wrote:

Barry Pearson wrote:

noshea wrote:

Let's start from the facts that:

a) Ricoh does not have the resources to throw at FF that SoCanikon does

Ricoh is larger than Nikon

For year end 2013 Ricoh had a market cap of around 135.3 billion yen and did 1.9 bn yen of sales in 2012/13 and an EBIT margin of 4%. Just under 7% of revenues came from its 'other' division, which includes cameras.

Stock market oriented analysis of Ricoh is dominated by the prospects for the copier/scanner etc. business, which accounts for almost all other revenue.

Nikon has a market cap of 705 billion yen, did sales of around 1 billion yen (EBIT margin 5%). Of sales, 74.4% came from its imaging segment, which is dominated (if not completely) by cameras, judging by its 2013 Annual Report.

So, Ricoh is indeed the bigger company by market cap and by overall sales but are polar opposites in terms of what they earn a living from and where their priorities lie.

Realistically, in the near term Nikon's future depends on growing its already meaningful share of the prosumer and upmarket camera market, whereas Ricoh's depends on the copier/scanner market. While this does not prevent Ricoh from throwing more money at its camera division the cut-throat market in cameras means that Ricoh's only realistic reason to invest heavily in the camera division would be because it wants to go from sub-scale to scale, or because it thinks it can make high margins by exploiting particular niches, while not needing to expand market share greatly. From the perspective of people who know where Ricoh and Nikon sit in the cameraworld foodchain, only the latter seems plausible.

For Ricoh, incremental spend, using existing good platforms (Pentax, Ricoh), would bring modest benefits in terms of market share and margin (see my first post). Hardly an exciting story, but several companies like Ricoh and Olympus have held onto their small-in-the-scheme-of-the-company camera divisions in apparent defiance of an economic logic that would suggest that they should sell to a specialist, like Nikon. The given excuse for selling might be imaging synergies across the business but I suspect this is just as much a case of ‘culture beats strategy’; there is room in the boardroom for an attachment to heritage, after all!

Anyhoos, my point is that I think Ricoh’s bigger size is indeed a guide to what they will spend on FF, but I draw the opposite conclusion. The investment will be modest in relative and absolute terms for Ricoh, which is not to say that the results of that investment can’t be spectacular, if you’re into quirky high-end cameras!

IBIS is a must. Otherwise so many K-mount FF lenses wouldn't have image stabilisation.

I suspect the K-3 body is already big enough. But I doubt if 24 MP is enough - that sounds like a cop-out.

If they can keep IBIS wonderful, but I haven't missed it as much in my D3 and non-VR pro Nikon zooms much at all - I have very few images suffering from obvious camera shake and I stay within sensible ISOs. It's a definite advantage for telephotos. My workaround would be to have a crop-sensor K3 as well, so you get the magification effect as well as the IBIS.

I think Ricoh recently said they plan to use the K3 body for a future FF offering.  (Maybe I imagined it).  My impression of Ricoh is they are swinging for the fences every time now, they'll use the best sensor they can obtain and are probably prototyping the 36MP with plans to use whatever improvements Sony can make by the time of launch.  Same sensor in a digital LX? hmm, if they get the pricing correct they'd sell a bunch of those.

Cheers.

asahi man Contributing Member • Posts: 900
Re: Rumoured Pentax FF : follow classic mz5n
3

Sorry,one of the Pentax 35mm cameras will look like the K3

Confused of Malvern Senior Member • Posts: 1,212
Re: Rumoured Pentax FF : follow classic mz5n

asahi man wrote:

Sorry,one of the Pentax 35mm cameras will look like the K3

"one of the Pentax 35mm cameras"  Does this imply we can expect more than one FF offering from Pentax?  Are they going to be like buses - you don't see one for ages and then two come along together?

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Confused of Malvern
'The greatest fool can ask more than the wisest man can answer'

asahi man Contributing Member • Posts: 900
Re: Rumoured Pentax FF : follow classic mz5n

It looks like one classical SLR and maybe one without mirror.
But the mirrorless is not clear.

Skip py Contributing Member • Posts: 700
Re: Rumoured Pentax FF : follow classic mz5n

Thanks !

A FF/K-3 from Pentax and a FF/GR from Ricoh ?

That should be a good move : an efficient way to reach two market shares with the same technology

And if the prices are realistic like for the K-3 ...

Any chance to see a GR with a KAF-mount ?

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Pentax K-3
(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 1,549
Re: Rumoured Pentax FF : follow classic mz5n

noshea wrote:

Simon Devlin wrote:

Imagine a ME Super as a FF digital, exactly the same including LED's and mechanical self timer!!!

Now I'd buy one of those for the viewfinder alone

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Simon
Legacy lens lover
Anarcho-primitivist and avid anti-technology advocate

Imagining is all we'll be doing on that idea (and perhaps any other FF idea!).

Seriously, I picked up an ME Super last month and love the experience of shooting with it. Hilariously, my FA 31 Limited is rubbish on it (while being fabulous on crop-sensor cameras).

I love the ME Super too, I was using it with a modern Metz flash at the weekend and guessing the exposure.

FA31 Ltd musn't be really designed for FF afterall? I used the Samyang 14mm f2.8 on it and it worked great.

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Simon
Legacy lens lover
Anarcho-primitivist and avid anti-technology advocate

JackM
JackM Veteran Member • Posts: 8,066
Re: A plan for Pentax FF

yardcoyote wrote:

What I'd like would be two Pentax FFs: a new LX as a "pro" body with all the bells and whistles of the best modern DSLRs, and a new K1000 (call it a K1K if you like) sturdy and basic, no video, with stripped down features like a single center focus point, easy access to all manual controls, and a digital version of the classic match needle meter. Both would make it easy to use the old manual lenses, perhaps by including a split image focusing screen, and would arrive accompanied by a selection of good new lenses with real working aperture rings.

There-- the best of both worlds, with the two models sharing a basic body shell and a lot of the electronics. There is certainly a precedent for this in Pentax history.

Agreed, but the MX would be a better DNA donor than the K1000. I said this here:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52475269

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noshea Regular Member • Posts: 127
Re: A plan for Pentax FF

I spoke to a Pentax rep in a store, this week. He was showing off the K-3. We discussed the FF issue and he said they had had overwhelming demand from customers for FF. He was clear that this is what they appeared to want more than anything else. I'm just reporting his words, here.

He said that obviously there were looking at it seriously but if there was something holding them back it was that the recent lens legacy is not well suited to FF. I suggested, as someone did here, that Pentax should not try to be Canon or Nikon; they should focus on keeping the system small, extremely high quality and great value for money. For example, F4 zooms that were sharp wide open would be a sensible compromise.

He seemed amazed when I said I would sell my Nikon D3 and f.28 zoom 'holy trinity' of Nikkors and buy 2 well-executed, reasonably priced Pentax FF bodies and a K 3.

The guy was young and it's the UK branch; hardly a direct line to Japan so not to be taken too seriously but I thought I'd report it, all the same.

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 1,549
Re: But my vote goes to:

That is quite nice. The retro Sony and Nikon cameras coming out are quite horrible, the Nikon goes down the fusion route including wi-fi.

If they literally just made a digital version of an ME Super to the exact dimension and with the LED's and all. I don't want an LCD either!

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Simon
Legacy lens lover
Anarcho-primitivist and avid anti-technology advocate

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