Swapping EM1 for A7

Started Oct 17, 2013 | Discussions
Clayton1985 Veteran Member • Posts: 7,148
Re: A7 is very mature

bluevellet wrote:

ha ha shooting with the SE16 on the A7r is essentially wasting the sensor's potential, even in crop mode.

This idea that because you have a 36mp camera you need to maximize the sensor's potential every time you press the shutter is ridiculous. The reality is that most people are already wasting 24mp or 36mp without crop mode. As I mentioned in my post, if you will never need more than 16mp then you don't need the A7r anyway.

Maybe a better way to look at it. How would you go about shooting in full frame with 36mp with the E-M1 if you needed to say 40% of the time?

To have a camera that can maximize the sensor's potential when needed and "waste" the sensor's potential the rest of the time is a good problem to have.  Of course if you are just going to use APS-C lenses all of the time then you probably don't need the A7r but I wasn't suggesting that anyone do that.

Brian Caslis
Brian Caslis Senior Member • Posts: 2,930
Re: A7 is very mature

Clayton1985 wrote:

...

And you are incorrect unless our definition of native is different.

Yes, my definition of native is different. I meant non-crop (why would I pay $2000 for an APS-C 16MP camera with useless fps speed) and without an adaptor for full size FF lenses. I'm buying a small body after all.

I do think it's an interesting camera. But I think the lens situation is still a problem unless you are an existing Sony owner and likes compromises (like cropped views or even bigger lenses).

I've been to this party with Sony before. I think waiting is a really good idea at the moment. I think the forum reactions that this camera is going to kill DSLRs and mft cameras both is beyond silly.

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Liviu Namolovan Contributing Member • Posts: 573
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7- A good decision.

I would if I had an E-M1. Affordable decent size FF camera is what I was looking for. Until now there was only the 7000 Euros Leica M. Now the A7 is a wonderful alternative. Because let's get completely honest: FF IQ is way beyond of what a m43 sensor can possibly give. Two desirable lenses for A7 at this time, in my opinion: Zeiss 35mm f2.8 and 52mm f1.4 respectively. I hope that soon we will get a 85mm f1.2/f1.4 or so. Did I mention there are superb Zeiss lenses we are talking about when we say A7?

Laszlo13
Laszlo13 Contributing Member • Posts: 887
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7

Swordman wrote:

I pre-ordered the EM1 kit with the 12-40 f2.8 lens. It was scheduled to arrive (according to Amazon UK) in the first week of November. I decided to cancel and go for the A7r (also due to arrive in the first week of November).

It was a very tough decision to make and I held out ordering the voigtlander 25mm f0.95 because I wanted to see what the Sony looked like.

With the Sony, I'm coupling it with the Nikon 50mm 1.4D and a Samyang 14mm f2.8.

The way I see it is like this: The Olympus has better build, looks better (in my opinion) and can achieve very similar DOF (with the right lens). The ergonomics are also better and it probably has more fun features (that I'd seldom use).

The Sony has better IQ and better low light performance, however, this is negated somewhat by the fact that at f0.95, the ISO wouldn't need to be ramped up so much on the Oly.

The Olympus, for sure, would be the more usable, versatile set-up. And, let's face it, the IQ is also pretty ruddy good. Not left wanting there.

So, why did I go for the Sony? The truth is, I still semi-regret cancelling the Olympus, but I'm not going through the hassle of cancelling the Sony and reordering the Olympus as I'll start to regret that, too!

It came down to one thing. In 5 or 6 years, it's realistic to say that smart phones would rival the EM1 for quality. They already compete in resolution terms in good light, and they're likely to keep getting better. However, there's no way they can compete with the Sony...not for a long time.

This last argument doesn't make sense.  If iphones will rival the current m4/3 sensor is 5, 6 years time, than m4/3 sensors will rival the current FF sensors.  In fact you should think about it the other way around.  If the IQ of the current m4/3 sensor is good enough for your print sizes - than you can rest assured that it will simply improve over time.  On the other hand: is the current Sony EF lens selection good enough for your needs?

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Stu 5 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,277
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7- A good decision.

Liviu Namolovan wrote:

I would if I had an E-M1. Affordable decent size FF camera is what I was looking for. Until now there was only the 7000 Euros Leica M. Now the A7 is a wonderful alternative. Because let's get completely honest: FF IQ is way beyond of what a m43 sensor can possibly give. Two desirable lenses for A7 at this time, in my opinion: Zeiss 35mm f2.8 and 52mm f1.4 respectively. I hope that soon we will get a 85mm f1.2/f1.4 or so. Did I mention there are superb Zeiss lenses we are talking about when we say A7?

You cannot take it for granted that they are superb just because they say Zeiss on the front. In the past it was true but not nowadays. Plus next year m43 has Schneider lenses which from already owning three of their lenses for other cameras and having used many more I would trust more for consistent quality.

Harold66
Harold66 Veteran Member • Posts: 7,011
missing thepoint ...

Liviu Namolovan wrote:

I would if I had an E-M1. Affordable decent size FF camera is what I was looking for. Until now there was only the 7000 Euros Leica M. Now the A7 is a wonderful alternative.

the fact that you just said that shows you do not much about either camera. The sony A7 and Leica M  have both a 35mm sensor but  that's about the ONLY thing they have in common

Because let's get completely honest: FF IQ is way beyond of what a m43 sensor can possibly give.

and why would it matter . does the maximal sharpness or the size of the files make your pictures better ( that is if you DO make pictures)

how BIG do you enlarge your images . do you realize that  other factors are more important than IQ ( which is going to be VERY good or excellent with any recent m4/3rds or APS camera)

the fact that Leica use a viewfinder  and has manual focus would influence your results more than  a sensor size which is not going to be visible at normal eye level and most of the ISO range

Harold

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Liviu Namolovan Contributing Member • Posts: 573
Re: missing thepoint ...

Allow me to quote from your post: "The sony A7 and Leica M have both a 35mm sensor but that's about the ONLY thing they have in common..."  And this is precisely  what I said it's important for me. Mirrorless AF with EVF vs rangefinder and other considerents are secondary for me. In fact I would have liked to see  kind of an old fashioned SLR type body like Nikon FE2 or Olympus OM (but of course, a bit bigger) with OVF, maybe still with a mirror inside and a delicious Sony FF sensor. I wouldn't mind if that camera would have been manual AF.

olypan Regular Member • Posts: 166
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7

ianbrown wrote:

Well just my luck only had the EM1 for a week and Sony bring a FF compact system camera out!!!!

Dont get me wrong I really like the EM1, BUT, before I invest in quality lenses for the EM1 I will stick it up for sale.

At least I shouldn't loose too much as the body is difficult to get at the moment

Any one else thinking of swapping?

Ok before anyone says it I have had a few cameras, but like many the A7 is the one I have been waiting for!

Ian

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/why-the-sony-a7-doesnt.html

shutter2013 Regular Member • Posts: 101
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7- A good decision.
3

Hi,

I'm kind of hoping that that people DO sell off their m4/3 gear because of gear acquisition syndrome and pick up the new A7/r!!! Lots of world class, top quality prime glass available for m4/3!!

I recently made the jump to digital photography from film. I've been shooting a Rollie with 120 B&W for years and also a very old Nikon  and Leicia M6 with TriX400.

It's amazing to think that there are have been so many AMAZING slide film shots produced and sold in galleries around the world that *ONLY* have 9 stops of dynamic range if you were to pull out a scientific DXOMark like measuring stick.

Today's sensor technology and glass design is incredible! I'm sure Ansel Adams himself would have been amazed at how far we have come.

I am not a professional myself. I'm an enthusiast who enjoys making pictures regardless of format ... be it wet plate etc...

One thing I was kinda sad to see with the move to digital is all the obsession with IQ perfection at the pixel level... are we chasing sterile images? Have we all started printing bill board size that we *Need* more than todays 11-14 stops of dynamic range and massive bill board size printing.

Hell, it's hillarious to see some guys argue about the 'dynamic range' advantage of their D800 over all others... then they go into VSCO/nik effects and apply a wet plate look and bump the contrast... effectively reducing printable output to 7-8 stops of dynamic range!

Leica have been made famous for their glass. Glass. Glass. Glass. The glass has and always will be a hugely important factor in deciding the perceived IQ (i'll get back to perceived VS DXOMark in a second ).

A particular piece of glass can give a system a character, colour, particular rendering that you do not find on another system. According to DXOmark the M9 sensor was not producing an image as beautiful as my old 1ds mk ii i picked up recently. Personally I PREFER the tonal renderings that I see from the leica / Summilux combo on real world output. But I've seen people bash the camera based on theoretical performance.

Noise to one person is character to another.

Personally I believe that the E-M1 is the next best thing to a user of a D4 / 1D. It's build quality is right up there and will take the rough and tumble. As I believe Steve Huff put it  - it's a jack of all trades and almost a master of every single one.

It's flash sync speed is great and IMHO the right balance between lens , system and image processor has been achieved.

Keep in mind that the digital output of a sensor goes beyond just the sensor itself, but also down to how it is processed. Consider the different colour renderings out of camera between a D600 and A99.... both using the same sensor.

Let's get one things straight in this thread. F1.4 on FF has the SAME light gathering capabilities as F1.4 on m4/3. The difference is down to DOF at a given apperture which may or may not be an advantage to you depending on your work.

As a formatm4/3 lenses have been intimately designed around the sensor. This wasn't a case of legacy film glass having a 35mm sensor designed around it. m4/3 was designed as a balanced system from the get go. Direct light to optimise sharpness to the corners. If you are a wedding photographer, it is an advantage to have more DOF wide open in low light which allows you to capture peoples faces and not just a single eye in focus On my 1D I would need to stop down to 5.6... but by virtue of doing that I need to bump ISO, so already I am loosing quite a bit of my theoretical dynamic range advantage. If I want more DOF ... similar to a FF look, I don't use the same focal length equiv as a FF, I would use a longer focal length lens. The 75mm Oly is world class. Right up there IMHO with the quality of Canon L glass. In fact I personally prefer it's rendering. It is my favourite lens on ANY system.

BTW with respect to shallow DOF... this can be achieved with almost any modern ILC camera. The important deciding points are you distance to the subject, the distance of your subject to the background , the focal length and apperture of your lens and lastly sensor size.

m4/3 is a different format to FF. you work with it differently with slightly different lenses. Similarly when I work with my Rollie I don't shoot at 50mm 1.4

The sony is a great camera ... no doubt. If it suits you , then you should buy one.

Buy which ever camera you will enjoy shooting most. Invest in good quality glass (a lot of people compare m4/3 with cheap kit lens with top of the line L glass on 5d's).

Sensor technology willl continually improve... arguably we have reached the point of diminishing returns and most improvements are scientific at best.

Let's not forget IBIS (4 stop worth on EM5 and 5 stops worth on EM1) and the ability to extend your dynamic range far beyond with inbody HDR (never mind the ability to bracket shoot and combine in post).

The point is the limitations is not really the camera - be it A7r or Em1.

Both will probably take stupidly high quality photo's and it will be ulimately down to which rendinging YOU prefer and which camera suits you best at a given focal length.

Best of luck and enjoy your A7/r .

Harold66
Harold66 Veteran Member • Posts: 7,011
Re: missing thepoint ...

Liviu Namolovan wrote:

Allow me to quote from your post: "The sony A7 and Leica M have both a 35mm sensor but that's about the ONLY thing they have in common..." And this is precisely what I said it's important for me. Mirrorless AF with EVF vs rangefinder and other considerents are secondary for me. In fact I would have liked to see kind of an old fashioned SLR type body like Nikon FE2 or Olympus OM (but of course, a bit bigger) with OVF, maybe still with a mirror inside and a delicious Sony FF sensor. I wouldn't mind if that camera would have been manual AF.

Allright then but it makes one wonder what kinds of images you make that makes the sensor size the number ONE factor in your choice. maybe you can enlighten us with the answer ?

if you have one that is ...

Harold

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Dave Bennett Senior Member • Posts: 1,602
I wouldnt touch any Sony camera with a bargepole

Nt

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mujana Veteran Member • Posts: 5,347
Re: I wouldnt touch any Sony camera with a bargepole

Dave Bennett wrote:

Nt

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Why not?

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Derek Dean
Derek Dean Senior Member • Posts: 1,855
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7- A good decision.

shutter2013, welcome to DPR. That's quite a first post :-). I tend to agree with most of what you posted. The only point I'm not clear about is the difference in equivalent f stops between formats. I get the DOF deal, but I get a bit confused when it comes to how much light is coming into the camera and hitting the sensor, etc. However, I don't let that kind of stuff worry me, as it's a bit more technical than I'm interested in. I just go out and enjoy taking photos.

As for the original poster's decision. Hey, there's nothing wrong with picking a camera system based on sensor size, or lens availability, or even the color of the lens cap. Whichever camera helps the photographer enjoy taking photos is the camera they ought to use. Period.

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captura Forum Pro • Posts: 24,613
Re: A7 is very mature

sigala1 wrote:

Skeeterbytes wrote:

Nope.

Lenses, lenses, lenses. Our system is "mature" while the other is still in preschool.

Cheers,

Rick

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"Whiskey is for drinking, digicams are for fighting over."
—Mark Twain

This is not really a whole new product for Sony but an enhancement of their already excellent NEX and RX1 products.

And Sony has already announced a pretty large number of FE lenses.

Only 15 lenses, starting with 3 in December.

A brand new FF series not really compatible with the APS-C sensor series of NEX. All NEX development has been cancelled and Sony has dropped the NEX name for new models. Leaving all NEX owners including me, high and dry. A7 and NEX share the e-mount, but if you run the crop NEX lens on the A7 you get only 10 mp.

Sony have done that before. In a couple of years, because I will continue to want a small rangefinder style camera, I will be forced to get an GX7. Fortunately I already have several m43 lenses.

I believe the RX cameras were only the test mule for the A7 and A7r. High priced and no advantage.

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captura Forum Pro • Posts: 24,613
Re: A7 is very mature

Brian Caslis wrote:

sigala1 wrote:

Skeeterbytes wrote:

Nope.

Lenses, lenses, lenses. Our system is "mature" while the other is still in preschool.

Cheers,

Rick

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This is not really a whole new product for Sony but an enhancement of their already excellent NEX and RX1 products.

And Sony has already announced a pretty large number of FE lenses.

And before the end of 2013 you will have exactly two native choices. The 28-70 kit zoom and the 35mm $800 price.

Ever notice they promised lots of lenses for NEX also? How's that going? Let me get my fast portrait prime for NEX. Hmmm, looks like they never delivered that along with many others.

NEX is dead.

I think a mirrorless FF camera is a good thing and the A7 might be the real deal. But until I see a real test (not a couple of youtube videos) I can't tell. And you are six months away at least from even a marginal selection of lenses assuming Sony actually delivers.

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captura Forum Pro • Posts: 24,613
Re: Considering, certainly.

Brian Caslis wrote:

I don't know why people complain about the E-M1 being "too big" because it's the same size as the A7 body. That was one of the reasons for the E-M1, to add the grip and better buttons than the E-M5. You can't make tiny and usable. The E-M1 / A7 size is about the smallest to make a fully usable body.

However, from what I'm seeing online, I bet the E-M1 will take a beating and have much better weathersealing over the A7. The A7 is actually partly plastic, the A7r is metal.

Same size but the sensor is 4 times larger.

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captura Forum Pro • Posts: 24,613
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7- A good decision.

Nice report. Unfortunately, A7/r has no IBIS and the Zeiss lenses have no OSS.

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captura Forum Pro • Posts: 24,613
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7

Jorginho wrote:

tsammyc wrote:

Jorginho wrote:

It came down to one thing. In 5 or 6 years, it's realistic to say that smart phones would rival the EM1 for quality. They already compete in resolution terms in good light, and they're likely to keep getting better. However, there's no way they can compete with the Sony...not for a long time.

If that is so, it will be less than two years before m43s hits FF cam performance. Not that I think this is going to happen and I also do not think a iPhone will get to m43 level in 6 years. But if you are right, the next serious Olympus body out there (E-M2) would be in FF territory.

I would not go back either btw, for the same reasons you give. Just make choice and be happy. If you look at Michael Reichmanns site you'll see that that very skilled and experienced shooter is raving about the a7r. So have fun!

I've found that my Sony RX100 1 inch sensor from 2012 is already about identical to most current 12MP M43 sensors so technology does catch up fast....

I think you mean most current 16 MPixel ones. Well, that is true for the older 16 MPixels. But these all date from 2010 and have everything to do with the process used. The Sony 1 is so much better than the Aptina because of the process used to fabricate it.

Look at the 2007 Sony sensor for the Nikon D300. Then we see a huge jump at the end of 2010 with the D7000. A new process is involved here. We do not nearly ssee such a jump with the D7100. Because most likely the same process is used. it is just a different circuitry.

Canon sensors, for the same reason have remained the same from 2008 to 2013.

So I think using one sensor as an example about one sensor cannot be extrapolated in the way you do. Moreover: a fabriaction process change is a very costly business. You will not do that every two years or so. I think in general it will take 4-5 years because you have to make so much sensors to make it profitable. And not every process change will get you the same jump, as seems to be examplified by Canon 70D which is clearly a brand new sensor but still does not do much better than its predecessors.

Probably in another year, the 1 inch sensors will catch up to the EM5 sensor, which would give EM5 quality to something I can slip in my shirt pocket and much smaller lenses that possibly retract into the body. Although I'm happy already with my RX100, I'm looking forward to pocketable P&S cameras reaching current EM5/EM1 quality.

So no: I think it ishighly unlikely that the next year we see 1 sensors performing like the the current best m43s. Just liek we won't see E-M1 doing better than the 1,5 year old EM5. And we do not see the D7100 doing significantly better than the 3 year old D7000.

I have no crystal ball of course and I am also not an expert so yes: I could be wrong.

We know that the 16mp sensor of Olympus m43 cameras is sourced from Sony. But who is the supplier of the sensor in the GX7?

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Harold66
Harold66 Veteran Member • Posts: 7,011
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7

GX7 sensor is also a Sony , most likely the same one as in the Em-5

Harold

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Daniel Lauring
Daniel Lauring Veteran Member • Posts: 9,342
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7

Quite different cameras.

The E-M1 is the fastest, most reliable focussing mirror less available.  Early reviews suggest the A7r and unfortunately, even the A7 are on par with the R1 and R1r, which aren't renowned for their focus performance.

There are less lenses available for the new Sony mount and the fast zooms and primes coming out are going to be pro level expensive.  Of course the lenses will be 3 times larger than the m43 counterparts which will make an especially big difference with long glass.

The Sony A's will get you a couple stops worth of light though...ditto for DOF and FOV.

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