Swapping EM1 for A7

Started Oct 17, 2013 | Discussions
Stu 5 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,277
Re: The REAL deal breakers for me

sigala1 wrote:

Ulric wrote:

Lab D wrote:

sigala1 wrote:

The 35mm FE lens is the same size as the Olympus 17mm.

I find this amusing. People found one lens that is smaller than an Olympus lens, but obviously most Micro 4/3 lenses are smaller and many significantly smaller.

Making decisions based on cherrypicking is indeed curious.

Once again, remember that the A7 competes against the E-M1 with the f/2.8 zoom, and not the E-PM2 with the kit lens or a G5 with kit lens on sale for $350 to $400. And btw, I consider the G5 kit a good deal for $350, even though it's not a fun combo to use, but it's clearly not in the same league as the Sony A7.

A7 competes more with the E-M5 not the E-M1. Yes it lack the 1/8000 but the E-M5 is still better made than a A7. The build is similar to the A7r which again falls short of the E-M1.

Stu 5 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,277
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7

ianbrown wrote:

Well just my luck only had the EM1 for a week and Sony bring a FF compact system camera out!!!!

Dont get me wrong I really like the EM1, BUT, before I invest in quality lenses for the EM1 I will stick it up for sale.

At least I shouldn't loose too much as the body is difficult to get at the moment

Any one else thinking of swapping?

Ok before anyone says it I have had a few cameras, but like many the A7 is the one I have been waiting for!

Actually you have probably been waiting for the replacement for the A7. The A7 is Sonys E-M5. Also if you intend to use legacy lenses you want the A7r as the sensor corrects for edge issues which the A7 does not do. If you intend to use larger lenses again you want the A7r as the A7 has body flex. It was Sony Australia that admitted that.

Ian

DLBlack Forum Pro • Posts: 13,453
Re: A7 is very mature

sigala1 wrote:

Skeeterbytes wrote:

Nope.

Lenses, lenses, lenses. Our system is "mature" while the other is still in preschool.

Cheers,

Rick

This is not really a whole new product for Sony but an enhancement of their already excellent NEX and RX1 products.

And Sony has already announced a pretty large number of FE lenses.

Announced for sometime in the future.  Only a slow kit lens and one prime is it for native lenses.  I will give it a few years.  In the mean time I will be enjoying my E-M1, E-M5 and some very good mft lenses.

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DLBlack Forum Pro • Posts: 13,453
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7

Yes, it is kind of sad.  Yes, if Sony keeps building on thenew FF system it might be a good system. Where it stands now there is only two slow lenses for the camera.  The handling and the useability of the camera is still an unkown.  I am guessing the AF and especially the c-af and c-af w/ tracking is a lot better in the E-M1.  Also the button and dials are better in the E-M1.  I have had my E-M1 for over a week now and it has been really impressing me more each day.

Dave

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Corkcampbell
Corkcampbell Forum Pro • Posts: 18,138
What's wrong with having both? I don't see this as an "either/or" situation. (nt)
3

no text

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Donny out of Element here Contributing Member • Posts: 996
Re: Needlessly bloated??
1

daddyo wrote:

If you really think the new Sony cameras are the equivalent in size to the E-M1, then you haven't thought the system through very carefully, as the Sony lenses across the board will be heavier, larger, and more expensive than m4/3 equivalent lenses.

A7/r with 35mm f2,8 Zeiss prime is same size as O-MD with 17mm f1.8. Not all lenses for FF are big. As for expensive or not: compare m43 lens Oly 17mm f1.8 for $500 and FF 35mm f2.8 ZEISS prime for $800 - do you think $300 difference is justified for a premium luxury lens from ZEISS that covers FF sensor 4 times the size of m43 sensor?

Now simple math: for OMD to achieve same shallow DOF as 35mm f2.8 FF can do - it needs to have 17mm f1.4! lens not f1.8, so in terms of DOF FF 2.8 beats m43 f1.8. Now in terms of exposure f1.8 is more bright lens, BUT A7/r will easily outperform OMD f1.8 due to better signal to noise ratio on high ISO usage. For A7/r even Auto mode includes ISO6400 as working ISO, but in RAW you can easily use ISO12800. I am not even going to argue that DR (dynamic range) of A7/r is much better than any m43 camera. As well as color reproduction. Why Sony went with f2.8 instead of f2 or f1.4? To keep size small and to have a lens that is very sharp from edge to edge. When price is almost same and size is almost same - one needs to be really m43 fan to chose m43 instead of A7/r. Just my 0.02 cents.

tsammyc Contributing Member • Posts: 628
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7

Jorginho wrote:

It came down to one thing. In 5 or 6 years, it's realistic to say that smart phones would rival the EM1 for quality. They already compete in resolution terms in good light, and they're likely to keep getting better. However, there's no way they can compete with the Sony...not for a long time.

If that is so, it will be less than two years before m43s hits FF cam performance. Not that I think this is going to happen and I also do not think a iPhone will get to m43 level in 6 years. But if you are right, the next serious Olympus body out there (E-M2) would be in FF territory.

I would not go back either btw, for the same reasons you give. Just make choice and be happy. If you look at Michael Reichmanns site you'll see that that very skilled and experienced shooter is raving about the a7r. So have fun!

I've found that my Sony RX100 1 inch sensor from 2012 is already about identical to most current 12MP M43 sensors so technology does catch up fast....

Probably in another year, the 1 inch sensors will catch up to the EM5 sensor, which would give EM5 quality to something I can slip in my shirt pocket and much smaller lenses that possibly retract into the body. Although I'm happy already with my RX100, I'm looking forward to pocketable P&S cameras reaching current EM5/EM1 quality.

DLBlack Forum Pro • Posts: 13,453
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7

I have had my E-M1 for little over a week and I have been very impressed with it.  It is a lot better camera than my E-M5.  The C-AF and C-AF w/ Tracking works really good.  The large buffer size is great.  The direct buttons makes the camer very useable.  The lens selection is very good.

The new FF Sony seems to lack those things.  So I will be sticking with my E-M1.

Dave

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amalric
amalric Forum Pro • Posts: 10,839
Which is the more strategic ownership?
4

DLBlack wrote:

I have had my E-M1 for little over a week and I have been very impressed with it. It is a lot better camera than my E-M5. The C-AF and C-AF w/ Tracking works really good. The large buffer size is great. The direct buttons makes the camer very useable. The lens selection is very good.

The new FF Sony seems to lack those things. So I will be sticking with my E-M1.

Here I am quoting from another thread, in a complemetary way:

"TOP, as I quoted mentions that already one of those Zeiss 21mm has colour shift and vignetting on the A7, so one of those pretexts for getting it is gone.

However there is a far more reaching argument - correct me if I am wrong. m4/3 has reached a threshold of excellency. It has enough pixel density to guarantee terrific DR - 12-13 stops. It has among the highest per pixel sharpness thanks to high resolution, both in the sensor, the low AA filter and in the best lenses.

Therefore what you earn in 35mm is not quality but quantity: a bigger image. I even read that my E-M5 has the same resolution of a 5d Mk.2. S. Huff also made one of hist 'Strange Comparisons' with an M9 - favourably. So why should I ever care of going 35mm?

m4/3 is 'good enough', but in a new sense - it cannot get much better except spatially, quantitatively. But with 35mm I will get lenses which are slower, bigger or more expensive.

Finally do i need to print twice the size? Do I need more pixel density or do I rather need more pixels?

That is why TOP considered m4/3 a strategic format - the 'Big Kahuna' of them all as they dubbed it.

Having a smaller sensor has lots of advantages: quicker processing, and from that follows quick AF and quick fps. Easier IBIS. more adaptability. And I personally welcome more DOF, as most old style, true photogs.

I know that I am going against the crowd, which is clamouring for more - and 'FF' - but I couldn't care less. I have more resolution than I ever had in most of my life, and possibly my eyes cannot detect anything better, except if I start stressing the image to levels of magnification I would never do."

When the A7 appeared the other day, I had an irrational reaction:'this is going to crush m4/3'.

The when the first data appeared, especially about the lenses, I cooled down. At best, like before 35mm could be suitable for classical Landscape and slow Portrait, whereas my genres are a lot more dynamic, ideally matched to the responsiveness of the E-M5. Why change all the lenses, that are ideally small and sharp?

If you hold your powders dry, you will see that in digital half frame is far more strategic than full frame. It is like a hare running in front of a boar, to use a metaphor.

I think nobody is ever going to make a disparaging remark about the E-M1, or the E-M5's IQ. With 35mm you'll simply get larger images. If I did work for Stock, I'd consider it, but certainly not now.

Am.

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,348
Re: Considering, certainly.

Jonas Palm wrote:

I swapped my Canon FF for the OM-D E-M5. It was a good move, on the whole.

But my kids move like weasels on amphetamine, so having better C-AF made the E-M1 attractive. However, the A7 with the Zeiss zoom is a very interesting alternative. In terms of cost and size, the A7 twins are equivalent to the E-M1, reinforcing the impression that the Olympus is needlessly bloated. Plus it would allow me to use my Contax-G primes. Or sell them and buy one of the very tasty Zeiss primes instead.

Hmm.

Of course, the 5-axis IBIS is nice, as is the wider native lens selection. But even for an owner of a nice E-M5 system plus lenses, the A7s are quite enticing.

Wouldn't shorter rope or a smaller enclosure be cheaper than a new camera?

ASR45
ASR45 Forum Pro • Posts: 36,791
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7

Well you surprise me Ian, my wife calls it being like a butterfly, thats what she calls me as im on the move jumping from ship to ship.

I know how cameras can get you all fired up, almost an obsession the grass is greener and all that, been there got the T shirt.

Good luck with your move.    

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MatsP
MatsP Senior Member • Posts: 2,445
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7

A short time I was excited over the two A7s. I really like the idea of a small frame (or FF if you like) sensor in a body of EM1 size, but after a while I realized that my E-M5 give me what I need. It give me enough IQ for pictures in books and for prints up to A2. There is a mature line of lenses, and it's growing. I'm considering the new 12-40 and swapping my 12-50 and 45/1,8 for that one, but the new Pana 12-32 looks promising, so maybe I get that one and keep my 45/1,8 instead...

I had already decided not to get the E-M1. So I don't think I will swap that one for an A7. I think I'll stick to my E-M5. But I may change my mind in the future when there may be more lenses and a more mature system. We'll see if I keep to m4/3 or if I'll go the "FF" way.

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OP ianbrown Senior Member • Posts: 1,969
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7

ASR45 wrote:

Well you surprise me Ian, my wife calls it being like a butterfly, thats what she calls me as im on the move jumping from ship to ship.

I know how cameras can get you all fired up, almost an obsession the grass is greener and all that, been there got the T shirt.

Good luck with your move.

You know you are kinda right, there is something about cameras that have always been a problem to me!

I have always wanted a small camera that gives excellent IQ and to date the EM1 ticked most of the boxes foe me, Top notch EVF, great IQ and being customisable has always been my top priority.

To get these I have always had to revert to a FF DSLR but never liked lugging it around, the EM1 appeared to be the best option. But now the A7 is here then it just looks too attractive, only down side is the lenses are going to take some time to come through, however the 24-70 f4 will do most of what I need initially.

I think for many the A7 will tick all the boxes, however I must say the EM1 was starting to give me much pleasure and I will be sad to see it go, however I needs o before I start too invest in lenses, at the moment I only have one!

cheers

Ian

Stu 5 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,277
Re: Needlessly bloated??

Donny out of Element here wrote:

daddyo wrote:

If you really think the new Sony cameras are the equivalent in size to the E-M1, then you haven't thought the system through very carefully, as the Sony lenses across the board will be heavier, larger, and more expensive than m4/3 equivalent lenses.

A7/r with 35mm f2,8 Zeiss prime is same size as O-MD with 17mm f1.8. Not all lenses for FF are big. As for expensive or not: compare m43 lens Oly 17mm f1.8 for $500 and FF 35mm f2.8 ZEISS prime for $800 - do you think $300 difference is justified for a premium luxury lens from ZEISS that covers FF sensor 4 times the size of m43 sensor?

Now simple math: for OMD to achieve same shallow DOF as 35mm f2.8 FF can do - it needs to have 17mm f1.4! lens not f1.8, so in terms of DOF FF 2.8 beats m43 f1.8. Now in terms of exposure f1.8 is more bright lens, BUT A7/r will easily outperform OMD f1.8 due to better signal to noise ratio on high ISO usage. For A7/r even Auto mode includes ISO6400 as working ISO, but in RAW you can easily use ISO12800. I am not even going to argue that DR (dynamic range) of A7/r is much better than any m43 camera. As well as color reproduction. Why Sony went with f2.8 instead of f2 or f1.4? To keep size small and to have a lens that is very sharp from edge to edge. When price is almost same and size is almost same - one needs to be really m43 fan to chose m43 instead of A7/r. Just my 0.02 cents.

You have picked one lens though which happens to be Sonys small one. What about the 70-200mm f4 or the 55mm f1.8? The fact the A7 has body flex and is not as good with legacy lenses. For that you need the A7r. What about the flashgun system problems. Then there is the possible tripod mount issues. And it is all well and good having the body but where are all the other lenses? No portrait lens. Sony have yet to bring one out for the Nex range. 5 more next year and 5 the year later... that is a joke. Even now they can't tell all the lenses for next year. Sony have a reputation for failing to deliver on lenses.

Thorgrem Contributing Member • Posts: 564
farewell
3

Any one else thinking of swapping?

No. I see no reason to invest so much in photography as a hobby. And I am perfectly happy with what I have now. And m4/3 offers more than enough for me.

Ok before anyone says it I have had a few cameras, but like many the A7 is the one I have been waiting for!

Ian

Good for you, hope you have fun.

Bye bye.

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ShatteredSky
ShatteredSky Senior Member • Posts: 1,918
I'll take it for 600 [nt]
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cheddargav Veteran Member • Posts: 4,493
Re: well said David

David Kieltyka wrote:

The lenses aren't there yet. Give me a 24/25mm and a 90/100mm to go with the 35 & 55mms and I may give it a closer look. Until then I'll remain highly skeptical of Sony's long-term commitment to any of their camera systems.

As for "full frame"...couldn't care less. I've used 35mm cameras for decades. Ain't no special magic in there, just another format.

-Dave-

I knew this would an interesting subject, when you think about it, Oly should be pleased that they made such a good m4/3 camera that it holds its own when being debated alongside a mirrorless FF!

As for the format, you're right. What people need to do is compare the lenses, such as the Voigtlander 17 0.95 on an EM1 with the new Sony 35 2.8 on an A7(r) - see what the images, results and DoF is like by comparison

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TheEngineer Regular Member • Posts: 374
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7

Swordman wrote:

It came down to one thing. In 5 or 6 years, it's realistic to say that smart phones would rival the EM1 for quality. They already compete in resolution terms in good light, and they're likely to keep getting better. However, there's no way they can compete with the Sony...not for a long time.

Sorry, but that's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

Do you really think that m43 is standing still and won't improve within the next 5 or 6 years?

Do you really think smart phones will come with comparable lenses to the Olympus 75mm?

Btw, looking at your posting history, it appears that you are just another sony fanboy trying to spread FUD.

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Jorginho Forum Pro • Posts: 14,295
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7
1

tsammyc wrote:

Jorginho wrote:

It came down to one thing. In 5 or 6 years, it's realistic to say that smart phones would rival the EM1 for quality. They already compete in resolution terms in good light, and they're likely to keep getting better. However, there's no way they can compete with the Sony...not for a long time.

If that is so, it will be less than two years before m43s hits FF cam performance. Not that I think this is going to happen and I also do not think a iPhone will get to m43 level in 6 years. But if you are right, the next serious Olympus body out there (E-M2) would be in FF territory.

I would not go back either btw, for the same reasons you give. Just make choice and be happy. If you look at Michael Reichmanns site you'll see that that very skilled and experienced shooter is raving about the a7r. So have fun!

I've found that my Sony RX100 1 inch sensor from 2012 is already about identical to most current 12MP M43 sensors so technology does catch up fast....

I think you mean most current 16 MPixel ones. Well, that is true for the older 16 MPixels. But these all date from 2010 and have everything to do with the process used. The Sony 1 is so much better than the Aptina because of the process used to fabricate it.

Look at the 2007 Sony sensor for the Nikon D300. Then we see a huge jump at the end of 2010 with the D7000. A new process is involved here. We do not nearly ssee such a jump with the D7100. Because most likely the same process is used. it is just a different circuitry.

Canon sensors, for the same reason have remained the same from 2008 to 2013.

So I think using one sensor as an example about one sensor cannot be extrapolated in the way you do. Moreover: a fabriaction process change is a very costly business. You will not do that every two years or so. I think in general it will take 4-5 years because you have to make so much sensors to make it profitable. And not every process change will get you the same jump, as seems to be examplified by Canon 70D which is clearly a brand new sensor but still does not do much better than its predecessors.

Probably in another year, the 1 inch sensors will catch up to the EM5 sensor, which would give EM5 quality to something I can slip in my shirt pocket and much smaller lenses that possibly retract into the body. Although I'm happy already with my RX100, I'm looking forward to pocketable P&S cameras reaching current EM5/EM1 quality.

So no: I think it ishighly unlikely that the next year we see 1 sensors performing like the the current best m43s. Just liek we won't see E-M1 doing better than the 1,5 year old EM5. And we do not see the D7100 doing significantly better than the 3 year old D7000.

I have no crystal ball of course and I am also not an expert so yes: I could be wrong.

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brycesteiner
brycesteiner Senior Member • Posts: 1,906
Re: Swapping EM1 for A7

ianbrown wrote:

Well just my luck only had the EM1 for a week and Sony bring a FF compact system camera out!!!!

Dont get me wrong I really like the EM1, BUT, before I invest in quality lenses for the EM1 I will stick it up for sale.

At least I shouldn't loose too much as the body is difficult to get at the moment

Any one else thinking of swapping?

Ok before anyone says it I have had a few cameras, but like many the A7 is the one I have been waiting for!

Ian

I have an E-M5 not and E-M1. The Sony looks interesting but the I would take the Em-1 (5) over it any day. The speed is too slow. Only 4 or 5 FPS depending on the model. I like the speed. I also like clean sensors that Olympus has.

I get fantastic professional shots now. Why change? If you don't have an investment in lenses it would be more of a decision, but for me it's not.

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