I posted all my pics between 1/80th and 1/200th from the E-P5 here (29 images = big post)

Started Oct 5, 2013 | Discussions
Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Please tell us more!
1

texinwien wrote:

Paul De Bra wrote:

Shutter shock is not just the camera but depends on the combination of camera+lens to get the right resonance of the vibration.

Dr. De Bra,

Your words here make it sound as though you are certain, without a doubt, that the shutter shock phenomenon is due to 'the right resonance of the vibration'. Have I interpreted what you've written here correctly?

I ask, because, you being a man of science, I'm sure you wouldn't make such claims of fact in a public forum without having compelling proof at hand. I would appreciate it, and I'm sure some others here would, as well, if you'd share with us the proofs you have that shutter shock is due to vibration.

I think it would be especially interesting to hear about your evidence since a number of others who've looked into the shutter shock phenomenon have come to very different conclusions. Since it seems you're convinced, I'm sure the evidence at your disposal is impeccable. I look forward to your sharing it with us - I'm sure we'll all be edified.

Thanks in advance!

Not that Paul is the only one to speak of resonance vibration. But the only evidence I am aware of (my own as well as that of others) supports the contention that it's brute (inelastic) shock we are talking about.

 Anders W's gear list:Anders W's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1 Olympus OM-D E-M5 Olympus E-M1 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm F4 ASPH +28 more
texinwien Veteran Member • Posts: 3,326
Re: 100% serious

Olymore wrote:

He did say he had deliberately not post processed them in order not to be seen to have tampered with them.

Yes, I saw that, and I still find the images I viewed at 100% to be soft even with that in mind.

 texinwien's gear list:texinwien's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM5 Olympus E-M5 II Olympus 12-40mm F2.8 OnePlus One Canon EOS 300D +20 more
OP The Photo Ninja Senior Member • Posts: 2,242
Re: 100% serious

I like pretty wide apertures and I'm sure that's part of it.

Timbukto Veteran Member • Posts: 4,988
Sand and skintones at sometimes higher ISOs

may show some microblur but not as easy to see the more obvious double-image.  Think of a night time exposure of traffic, the only 'movement' captured by the exposure are of car lights, not the car itself!

Likewise the most obvious capture of movement (including shutter shock influenced movement), is not skintones and sand, but of highly exposed objects.  White objects, metal objects are perfect.

 Timbukto's gear list:Timbukto's gear list
Canon EOS M Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Canon EF-M 22mm f/2 STM
OP The Photo Ninja Senior Member • Posts: 2,242
72 pics from today all shot at 1/100th of a second. Seems fine to me.

I shot these in Vivid mode and unfortunately. I forgot to shoot in Raw+JPEG.  These are all the original JPEGs from the camera.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bershatsky/sets/72157636234268745/

Maybe I'm just lucky!

BTW, the camera also withstood me carrying it across my shoulder/back on a strap while I did quite a few punches, blocks, and kicks for demonstration during the parade.

texinwien Veteran Member • Posts: 3,326
Re: 100% serious

I like pretty wide apertures and I'm sure that's part of it.

I like wide apertures, as well. I shoot an E-M5 with lenses that get me shallower DOF than your 17mm is capable of. That's not where the lack of sharpness that I'm talking about is coming from.

 texinwien's gear list:texinwien's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM5 Olympus E-M5 II Olympus 12-40mm F2.8 OnePlus One Canon EOS 300D +20 more
micksh6
micksh6 Senior Member • Posts: 2,613
Re: 72 pics from today all shot at 1/100th of a second. Seems fine to me.
1

The Photo Ninja wrote:

I shot these in Vivid mode and unfortunately. I forgot to shoot in Raw+JPEG. These are all the original JPEGs from the camera.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bershatsky/sets/72157636234268745/

Maybe I'm just lucky!

BTW, the camera also withstood me carrying it across my shoulder/back on a strap while I did quite a few punches, blocks, and kicks for demonstration during the parade.

Why do you spam forum with dozens of pictures? Can't you just choose the ones that are relevant and, perhaps, do some minimal analysis?

Hint - the ones with 1/640-1/8000s shutter speed that you just posted are irrelevant, you disrespect forum members by posting these and increasing amount of data that people have to browse through.

Photos with aperture F9-F16 and smaller aren't that relevant either. These are beyond diffraction limit and they can be soft. Also nobody is interested in photos of moving subjects or deep depths/low detail subjects where focus point is inconclusive when testing gear for sharpness.

In general, your photos are not that sharp, 17mm F1.8 lens can do better.

You have been shown double edges on your previous images, didn't you? Here: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52274089

And also you could see a better subject for testing in this post: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52276104

A subject like that should be an example, not soft random snapshots like you posted.

However, you decided to hide the problem by shooting dozens of photos that are difficult to analyze, especially on Flicr.

I supposed in this one you focused at infinity. Sorry, this is just soft. Again, it's not what 17mm F1.8 lens can do.

1

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bershatsky/10110399584/in/set-72157636234268745

If this is acceptable for you, sell primes and get a kit zoom, or, preferably, get rid of m4/3 entirely and buy a compact camera. I had this kind or maybe better clarity with my Ricoh GX100 compact from year 2007. Why the heck did you spend $1500 on that? Spammer.

 micksh6's gear list:micksh6's gear list
Olympus PEN E-PL5 Olympus E-M1 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm F4.0-5.6 Panasonic Leica Summilux DG 25mm F1.4 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R +6 more
sderdiarian Veteran Member • Posts: 4,229
Re: 72 pics from today all shot at 1/100th of a second. Seems fine to me.
4

Posts to forums tend to magnify tone of language, and while your points were well taken, they came across as unnecessarily rude to this reader. The "Spammer" comment at the end was particularly unnecessary, contributing nothing to the conversation and sending a message to others that they dare not post to these forums lest they be insulted.

I've gotten a lot out of this thread given some very informative responses.  Yes, 29 images was over the top, and thankfully no one included them all again in their responses, but the message of the OP led to some helpful discussion of a genuine issue and some work-arounds, which I hope to see ongoing.

-- hide signature --

Sailin' Steve

 sderdiarian's gear list:sderdiarian's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 Olympus OM-D E-M10 II Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 60mm 1:2.8 Macro Olympus M.Zuiko ED 75-300mm 1:4.8-6.7 II +1 more
micksh6
micksh6 Senior Member • Posts: 2,613
Re: 72 pics from today all shot at 1/100th of a second. Seems fine to me.
2

sderdiarian wrote:

Posts to forums tend to magnify tone of language, and while your points were well taken, they came across as unnecessarily rude to this reader. The "Spammer" comment at the end was particularly unnecessary, contributing nothing to the conversation and sending a message to others that they dare not post to these forums lest they be insulted.

I've gotten a lot out of this thread given some very informative responses. Yes, 29 images was over the top,

Apparently, it wasn't. Want to be polite and nice? Go ahead and analyze 72 images that OP posted on flickr. Waiting for your informative response after that.

and thankfully no one included them all again in their responses, but the message of the OP led to some helpful discussion of a genuine issue and some work-arounds, which I hope to see ongoing.

BTW, there have been enough discussions about this subject in the past. You could use search if you were interested in information.

 micksh6's gear list:micksh6's gear list
Olympus PEN E-PL5 Olympus E-M1 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm F4.0-5.6 Panasonic Leica Summilux DG 25mm F1.4 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R +6 more
OP The Photo Ninja Senior Member • Posts: 2,242
They are ALL relevant
1

There is really no issue.  These are snaps from a whole day outing.

The biggest problem I see is that I should have sped up the shutter the majority of the photos because the aperture got too small and blurred some images, but shutter shock?  Hardly!

OP The Photo Ninja Senior Member • Posts: 2,242
By the way, we were on a tractor hayride when I snapped that at 1/100

Again, a faster shutter speed would have been appropriate.

Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: 72 pics from today all shot at 1/100th of a second. Seems fine to me.

The Photo Ninja wrote:

I shot these in Vivid mode and unfortunately. I forgot to shoot in Raw+JPEG. These are all the original JPEGs from the camera.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bershatsky/sets/72157636234268745/

This is not a test. This is a collection of data poorly suited to the task of determining the impact of shutter shock. In the post to which I link below is an example of what a test might look like. Why didn't you do something like that, as I suggested in earlier posts?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52237265

Maybe I'm just lucky!

As far as I can tell, you are "lucky" that your sharpness requirements are so low.

BTW, the camera also withstood me carrying it across my shoulder/back on a strap while I did quite a few punches, blocks, and kicks for demonstration during the parade.

 Anders W's gear list:Anders W's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1 Olympus OM-D E-M5 Olympus E-M1 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm F4 ASPH +28 more
OP The Photo Ninja Senior Member • Posts: 2,242
How is a full day of shooting not a test?

In reality, I would have used Aperture Priority mode throughout the day instead of dealing with refraction limits. Regarding sharpness, look at the eyes and most notably the lashes on my kids, pretty sharp if you ask me.

Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: How is a full day of shooting not a test?
2

The Photo Ninja wrote:

How is a full day of shooting not a test?

Because in your case it is neither comparative nor controlled and therefore gives us a poor basis for deciding the amount of shutter-shock induced blur.

In reality, I would have used Aperture Priority mode throughout the day instead of dealing with refraction limits.

You mean diffraction limits.

 Anders W's gear list:Anders W's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1 Olympus OM-D E-M5 Olympus E-M1 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm F4 ASPH +28 more
Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Anders - Thanks for your post.

Guy Parsons wrote:

Anders W wrote:

The main problem seems to be caused by the shutter closure after-shock vibrations as it slams shut just before the shutter runs for the exposure. So anti-shock delay of appropriate duration does help. Some say 1/8 second helps but from extensive testing by Anders (from memory) it seems that a painful 2 seconds was needed to eliminate the shutter closure shock properly.

Hi Guy,

I don't think I ever tested that particular factor rigorously enough to be sure. But I do think that 1/8 s is long enough to help at least some people significantly and has the benefit over longer delays of not making the shutter delay unduly long, which increases the risk that you miss the right moment.

In my personal case, I haven't found that anti-shock helps a whole lot regardless of how long I make the delay. Apparently, I manage to hold the camera such that it's pretty much only the later phases of shutter action that cause problems in my case. But with other holding techniques than mine, anti-shock may nevertheless help significantly.

When shooting off a tripod, I always use anti-shock as a replacement for self-release. Both can do the same thing but the anti-shock performs the first phase of shutter action right away (just like preflapping the mirror on an SLR) rather than later and thus eliminates it from the total blur equation. In this case, I'd use at least a two-second delay and a bit more than that if I am shooting with a very long FL.

Hi Anders,

Thanks for intercepting and clearing up my bad memory of those older posts.

In the past I've been more concerned with IBIS/OIS issues and have never really tried to sort out the shutter shock issue except for that recording I made shown above somewhere. The next move (that has not happened so far) was to make a second recorder channel to capture when first curtain and second curtain and FP flash occurred to prove where the shutter open period was in my sound/vibration recording.

Originally I was never going to buy M4/3 until they had a global shutter as I dislike focal plane shutters intensely, but I thought I would be pushing up daisies before that happened so dived in at E-PL1 and now E-PL5. I keep the Panasonic LX3 for those times I do need a quiet camera.

I leave my camera at 1/8 sec anti-shock delay in the faint hope it may help sometimes. Only set to 0 when needing action shots.

Another thing you might want to try if you haven't already is to hold the camera by the body only, supporting with your left hand on top and below the body rather than under the lens, and abstain from much in the way of head support (via the EVF when/if you use one). I have found this technique helpful at least with relatively short and light lenses. With longer and heavier ones, like the 100-300, I try to find a support point close to the body and support with the tip of my thumb and index finger rather than with my palm. See my exchange with Ulric and texinwien in this thread for details.

On tripod usually 2 sec timer plus 2 sec anti-shock or just 2 sec anti-shock alone.

Regards..... Guy

[edit... sound recording is in other thread... http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52272437 ]

 Anders W's gear list:Anders W's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1 Olympus OM-D E-M5 Olympus E-M1 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm F4 ASPH +28 more
dougjgreen1 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,945
No, quite simply, they're not
1

The Photo Ninja wrote:

There is really no issue. These are snaps from a whole day outing.

The biggest problem I see is that I should have sped up the shutter the majority of the photos because the aperture got too small and blurred some images, but shutter shock? Hardly!

Again, as was pointed out, it's pretty silly to claim that shots at shutter speeds above 1/500th of a second are actually relevant.

 dougjgreen1's gear list:dougjgreen1's gear list
Olympus Stylus XZ-10 Nikon 1 V2 Olympus PEN E-P5 Olympus E-M1 Olympus E-PL7 +17 more
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads