I posted all my pics between 1/80th and 1/200th from the E-P5 here (29 images = big post)

Started Oct 5, 2013 | Discussions
Ulric Veteran Member • Posts: 4,532
Re: Thanks for the tip. Now I see it.

BonoBox wrote:

Paul De Bra wrote:

I would say the galleries are seriously broken. A picture should either not be accessible at 100% or accessible at 100% through the gallery page. But alas that is not an m43 issue.

I see the blur in the images now. This is not good. I guess with the E-P5 it is necessary to enable 1/8s anti-shock just like on the E-M5.

from what i read in previous topic anti-shock doesn't help because the problem is not the shutter button but the shutter mechanism that moves the curtains

The main problem seems to be caused by the shutter closure after-shock vibrations as it slams shut just before the shutter runs for the exposure. So anti-shock delay of appropriate duration does help. Some say 1/8 second helps but from extensive testing by Anders  (from memory) it seems that a painful 2 seconds was needed to eliminate the shutter closure shock properly.

Regards..... Guy

I have started holding the camera body with both hands and it helps better than anti-shock.

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OP The Photo Ninja Senior Member • Posts: 2,242
Are you guys kidding me?
1

Seriously, I think this is blown WAYYYYYY out of proportion.

To prove it, I'm going to be in a parade this morning, I'll bring my camera and shoot pics of the event.  I'll shoot RAW+JPEG and post all the pics.  Also, I'll set the shutter speed to 100 and leave it there!

Ulric Veteran Member • Posts: 4,532
Re: Are you guys kidding me?

Why?

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Thanks for the tip. Now I see it.

Ulric wrote:

BonoBox wrote:

Paul De Bra wrote:

I would say the galleries are seriously broken. A picture should either not be accessible at 100% or accessible at 100% through the gallery page. But alas that is not an m43 issue.

I see the blur in the images now. This is not good. I guess with the E-P5 it is necessary to enable 1/8s anti-shock just like on the E-M5.

from what i read in previous topic anti-shock doesn't help because the problem is not the shutter button but the shutter mechanism that moves the curtains

The main problem seems to be caused by the shutter closure after-shock vibrations as it slams shut just before the shutter runs for the exposure. So anti-shock delay of appropriate duration does help. Some say 1/8 second helps but from extensive testing by Anders (from memory) it seems that a painful 2 seconds was needed to eliminate the shutter closure shock properly.

Regards..... Guy

I have started holding the camera body with both hands and it helps better than anti-shock.

If you mean holding the body itself with both hands rather than supporting the lens with the left hand, yes that's likely to be better from a shutter-shock point of view if the lens is short and light enough to permit it. Abstaining from much in the way of head support is likely to be helpful as well. The likely reasons are spelled out here:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3496076

For longer and heavier lens, things get more complicated because the center of gravity moves away from the shutter horizontally, increasing the risk that the shutter movement forms a moment arm no matter how you hold the camera and because you need to cradle the lens and/or use increased head support to prevent things from shaking on grounds other than shutter shock.

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OP The Photo Ninja Senior Member • Posts: 2,242
I've had serious issues with cameras and lenses before...this one I think is

ridiculous.  Is it possible they had their IS setting set up for a different focal length?  Bad model?

Honestly, the reviews on this camera are awesome.  I have been very impressed, but now everyone is freaking out!

It's the same in body IS as the OMD and everyone loves that camera.

So, to prove a point that this is crazy and irrational, I'll display today's photos show vivid jpeg mode and with IS on.

I'll be back in a few hours - gotta go use my shutter shocked camera.

Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Are you guys kidding me?

The Photo Ninja wrote:

Seriously, I think this is blown WAYYYYYY out of proportion.

Whether you think it blown out of proportion or not depends on your standards when it comes sharpness. Yours don't appear to be all that high.

To prove it, I'm going to be in a parade this morning, I'll bring my camera and shoot pics of the event. I'll shoot RAW+JPEG and post all the pics. Also, I'll set the shutter speed to 100 and leave it there!

That isn't likely to be a very good test. Better is to repeatedly shoot a very revealing target like the one shown here. The print-screen structure is very efficient when it comes to revealing the slightest amount of blur. No need to post all the results (especially since you have to shoot quite a few images to say anything; the problem is probabilistic, not deterministic). Representaive examples suffice.

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tom60634 Senior Member • Posts: 2,130
Re: I didn't post process these because I didn't want to be accused of doctoring
2

The Photo Ninja wrote:

up the blur. Of course I have post processed these for my own personal use, but that would defeat the purpose here.

Bravo for being able to deal with  a lot of nit-picking.

One of the files accused of shutter shock (I really didn't see it) was the photo of the blonde girl with the goat sculpture.

I downloaded the file set the ppi to 220 from 300, because that is my retina screen resolution, and once again could not really find objectionable shutter shock even pixel peeping.

I then went through a simple luminosity channel enhancement and sharpening routine. I left the result at 100% for the sculpture and 50% for the rest of the file. On my monitor screen the softness has been removed and I still cannot find objectionable shutter shock artifacts.

On my computer screen, the photo as seen in photoshop cc is very in-focus and sharp, it'll be interesting to see what DPR does to the uploaded photo

A nice shot by the way, which should be enjoyed for its simple childlike charm.

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Are you guys kidding me?

Anders W wrote:

The Photo Ninja wrote:

Seriously, I think this is blown WAYYYYYY out of proportion.

Whether you think it blown out of proportion or not depends on your standards when it comes sharpness. Yours don't appear to be all that high.

To prove it, I'm going to be in a parade this morning, I'll bring my camera and shoot pics of the event. I'll shoot RAW+JPEG and post all the pics. Also, I'll set the shutter speed to 100 and leave it there!

That isn't likely to be a very good test. Better is to repeatedly shoot a very revealing target like the one shown here. The print-screen structure is very efficient when it comes to revealing the slightest amount of blur. No need to post all the results (especially since you have to shoot quite a few images to say anything; the problem is probabilistic, not deterministic). Representaive examples suffice.

Here's a good example of how you can go about it:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52237265

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dougjgreen1 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,936
It's there, for sure - but I've often seen it MUCH worse

The Photo Ninja wrote:

Seriously, I think this is blown WAYYYYYY out of proportion.

To prove it, I'm going to be in a parade this morning, I'll bring my camera and shoot pics of the event. I'll shoot RAW+JPEG and post all the pics. Also, I'll set the shutter speed to 100 and leave it there!

The particular shots that it was pointed out in DO exhibit shutter shock, but they exhibit it in a pretty minor way.  Generally, it manifests itself much more severely and more obviously than in the pics that it was pointed out in here.

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dpreviewreader Regular Member • Posts: 488
Re: I posted all my pics between 1/80th and 1/200th from the E-P5 here (29 images = big post)
1

In my experience shutter shock affects the entire image and that does not seem to be the case here. I am not sure these show shutter shock.

jalywol wrote:

The Photo Ninja wrote:

I took the photos right into lightroom, no edits, 300 dpi, and max of 6MB size. No sharpening or noise reduction.

Maybe I'm just lucky there's no shutter shock. BTW, I owned an E-PL5 for a week or so, and didn't see it there either. I'm not saying it's not real, just that I've been lucky.

You can see it on these two. If you look at the steps behind the petunias, right in the middle of the photos, you can see the double image on the horizontal lines of the steps and of the railing.

On this one, you can see it on the nostril of the sculpture; again on the straight edges of the metal.

Also, were you using IBIS? These all were much less sharp than I would have expected them to be, overall. I gave up on IBIS in this shutter speed range, and I find my photos are considerably sharper with it off than with IBIS on (on the EPM2) at any speeds above about 1/60. So, I only use it if I am in very low light situations where the shutter speed is quite slow....and it does work fine then. Just not in 1/80- 1/200-ish range for me.

-J

Ulric Veteran Member • Posts: 4,532
Re: Thanks for the tip. Now I see it.

Anders W wrote:

Ulric wrote:

BonoBox wrote:

Paul De Bra wrote:

I would say the galleries are seriously broken. A picture should either not be accessible at 100% or accessible at 100% through the gallery page. But alas that is not an m43 issue.

I see the blur in the images now. This is not good. I guess with the E-P5 it is necessary to enable 1/8s anti-shock just like on the E-M5.

from what i read in previous topic anti-shock doesn't help because the problem is not the shutter button but the shutter mechanism that moves the curtains

The main problem seems to be caused by the shutter closure after-shock vibrations as it slams shut just before the shutter runs for the exposure. So anti-shock delay of appropriate duration does help. Some say 1/8 second helps but from extensive testing by Anders (from memory) it seems that a painful 2 seconds was needed to eliminate the shutter closure shock properly.

Regards..... Guy

I have started holding the camera body with both hands and it helps better than anti-shock.

If you mean holding the body itself with both hands rather than supporting the lens with the left hand, yes that's likely to be better from a shutter-shock point of view if the lens is short and light enough to permit it. Abstaining from much in the way of head support is likely to be helpful as well. The likely reasons are spelled out here:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3496076

For longer and heavier lens, things get more complicated because the center of gravity moves away from the shutter horizontally, increasing the risk that the shutter movement forms a moment arm no matter how you hold the camera and because you need to cradle the lens and/or use increased head support to prevent things from shaking on grounds other than shutter shock.

Yeah, that's the thread that gave me the idea. I tried a pistol grip, noted that it works but is clumsy, tried the double-handed grip and noted that it too was very efficient. I don't have any MFT lens heavier than the 75, which is perfectly ok to use like that.

It does feel awkward, though, after many years of supporting the lens with the left hand.

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Guy Parsons
Guy Parsons Forum Pro • Posts: 29,831
Anders - Thanks for your post.

Anders W wrote:

The main problem seems to be caused by the shutter closure after-shock vibrations as it slams shut just before the shutter runs for the exposure. So anti-shock delay of appropriate duration does help. Some say 1/8 second helps but from extensive testing by Anders (from memory) it seems that a painful 2 seconds was needed to eliminate the shutter closure shock properly.

Hi Guy,

I don't think I ever tested that particular factor rigorously enough to be sure. But I do think that 1/8 s is long enough to help at least some people significantly and has the benefit over longer delays of not making the shutter delay unduly long, which increases the risk that you miss the right moment.

In my personal case, I haven't found that anti-shock helps a whole lot regardless of how long I make the delay. Apparently, I manage to hold the camera such that it's pretty much only the later phases of shutter action that cause problems in my case. But with other holding techniques than mine, anti-shock may nevertheless help significantly.

When shooting off a tripod, I always use anti-shock as a replacement for self-release. Both can do the same thing but the anti-shock performs the first phase of shutter action right away (just like preflapping the mirror on an SLR) rather than later and thus eliminates it from the total blur equation. In this case, I'd use at least a two-second delay and a bit more than that if I am shooting with a very long FL.

Hi Anders,

Thanks for intercepting and clearing up my bad memory of those older posts.

In the past I've been more concerned with IBIS/OIS issues and have never really tried to sort out the shutter shock issue except for that recording I made shown above somewhere. The next move (that has not happened so far) was to make a second recorder channel to capture when first curtain and second curtain and FP flash occurred to prove where the shutter open period was in my sound/vibration recording.

Originally I was never going to buy M4/3 until they had a global shutter as I dislike focal plane shutters intensely, but I thought I would be pushing up daisies before that happened so dived in at E-PL1 and now E-PL5. I keep the Panasonic LX3 for those times I do need a quiet camera.

I leave my camera at 1/8 sec anti-shock delay in the faint hope it may help sometimes. Only set to 0 when needing action shots. On tripod usually 2 sec timer plus 2 sec anti-shock or just 2 sec anti-shock alone.

Regards..... Guy

[edit... sound recording is in other thread... http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52272437 ]

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jonikon Veteran Member • Posts: 6,548
Soft images = bad lens?

The images posted by the OP are very soft indeed, and lack contrast as well.  I think the terrible image quality in the OP's photos may be due to a very bad lens and poor exposure, and may not necessarily be a result of shutter shock.

- Jon

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texinwien Veteran Member • Posts: 3,326
Please tell us more!
2

Paul De Bra wrote:

Shutter shock is not just the camera but depends on the combination of camera+lens to get the right resonance of the vibration.

Dr. De Bra,

Your words here make it sound as though you are certain, without a doubt, that the shutter shock phenomenon is due to 'the right resonance of the vibration'. Have I interpreted what you've written here correctly?

I ask, because, you being a man of science, I'm sure you wouldn't make such claims of fact in a public forum without having compelling proof at hand. I would appreciate it, and I'm sure some others here would, as well, if you'd share with us the proofs you have that shutter shock is due to vibration.

I think it would be especially interesting to hear about your evidence since a number of others who've looked into the shutter shock phenomenon have come to very different conclusions. Since it seems you're convinced, I'm sure the evidence at your disposal is impeccable. I look forward to your sharing it with us - I'm sure we'll all be edified.

Thanks in advance!

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texinwien Veteran Member • Posts: 3,326
This is how I'm operating, currently
1

Ulric wrote:

Anders W wrote:

Ulric wrote:

BonoBox wrote:

Paul De Bra wrote:

I would say the galleries are seriously broken. A picture should either not be accessible at 100% or accessible at 100% through the gallery page. But alas that is not an m43 issue.

I see the blur in the images now. This is not good. I guess with the E-P5 it is necessary to enable 1/8s anti-shock just like on the E-M5.

from what i read in previous topic anti-shock doesn't help because the problem is not the shutter button but the shutter mechanism that moves the curtains

The main problem seems to be caused by the shutter closure after-shock vibrations as it slams shut just before the shutter runs for the exposure. So anti-shock delay of appropriate duration does help. Some say 1/8 second helps but from extensive testing by Anders (from memory) it seems that a painful 2 seconds was needed to eliminate the shutter closure shock properly.

Regards..... Guy

I have started holding the camera body with both hands and it helps better than anti-shock.

If you mean holding the body itself with both hands rather than supporting the lens with the left hand, yes that's likely to be better from a shutter-shock point of view if the lens is short and light enough to permit it. Abstaining from much in the way of head support is likely to be helpful as well. The likely reasons are spelled out here:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3496076

For longer and heavier lens, things get more complicated because the center of gravity moves away from the shutter horizontally, increasing the risk that the shutter movement forms a moment arm no matter how you hold the camera and because you need to cradle the lens and/or use increased head support to prevent things from shaking on grounds other than shutter shock.

Yeah, that's the thread that gave me the idea. I tried a pistol grip, noted that it works but is clumsy, tried the double-handed grip and noted that it too was very efficient. I don't have any MFT lens heavier than the 75, which is perfectly ok to use like that.

It does feel awkward, though, after many years of supporting the lens with the left hand.

I have also switched from holding my left hand under body / lens as I used to do with a DSLR.

Now I either hold my left hand under the body, or on the left side of the camera, or a combination, with my left thumb under the body and the rest of my left hand on the left side of the camera.

Also, I have found that I get better results if I don't press the camera hard against the ridge over my eye. Rather, I hold it so that it either doesn't touch my face (using the EVF here) or that it just barely comes into contact with the ridge over my (right) eye.

With the E-M5, I get better results w/r/t shutter shock using the technique on the left than using the technique on the right. That's right, my technique with the E-M5 is similar to the one with the red X, and not the one with the green check mark.

I was be pretty proud of my steady camera-holding technique when working with a DSLR sans stabilization. I had my breathing under control and managed a pretty good success rate with shutter speeds significantly slower than the 1/EFL 'safe' speed.

That same technique is not only not necessary with the E-M5, it seems to be detrimental, at least in my case.

I also have a pistol grip - I usually reserve it for use with my 100-300mm when I can't use a tripod, like, for instance, on a jeep safari.

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M Hamilton Contributing Member • Posts: 691
Re: Soft images = bad lens?

jonikon wrote:

The images posted by the OP are very soft indeed, and lack contrast as well. I think the terrible image quality in the OP's photos may be due to a very bad lens and poor exposure, and may not necessarily be a result of shutter shock.

- Jon

All images were taken with either 17mm 1.8 or 45mm 1.8, both considered VERY good lenses.

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texinwien Veteran Member • Posts: 3,326
100% serious

First off, you're using a lens with a shorter focal length here. The longer the lens, the worse the problem, generally. Try with the 45mm or the 40-150mm and see how you like the results.

Second off, the photos you shared are way too soft for my requirements. If they're sharp enough for you, that's wonderful. They are objectively not as sharp as they could be, given the camera and lens combination at your disposal.

Different people have different standards of acceptable image quality, or else we'd all be shooting with mobile phones. I can assure you that your standards aren't among the highest if you find the softness in the images you shared acceptable. Your call and your standards, of course.

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Olymore
Olymore Senior Member • Posts: 1,737
Re: 100% serious

He did say he had deliberately not post processed them in order not to be seen to have tampered with them.

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Those that understand binary and those that don't.

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Olymore
Olymore Senior Member • Posts: 1,737
Re: Soft images = bad lens?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52275414

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,468
Re: Thanks for the tip. Now I see it.

Ulric wrote:

Anders W wrote:

Ulric wrote:

BonoBox wrote:

Paul De Bra wrote:

I would say the galleries are seriously broken. A picture should either not be accessible at 100% or accessible at 100% through the gallery page. But alas that is not an m43 issue.

I see the blur in the images now. This is not good. I guess with the E-P5 it is necessary to enable 1/8s anti-shock just like on the E-M5.

from what i read in previous topic anti-shock doesn't help because the problem is not the shutter button but the shutter mechanism that moves the curtains

The main problem seems to be caused by the shutter closure after-shock vibrations as it slams shut just before the shutter runs for the exposure. So anti-shock delay of appropriate duration does help. Some say 1/8 second helps but from extensive testing by Anders (from memory) it seems that a painful 2 seconds was needed to eliminate the shutter closure shock properly.

Regards..... Guy

I have started holding the camera body with both hands and it helps better than anti-shock.

If you mean holding the body itself with both hands rather than supporting the lens with the left hand, yes that's likely to be better from a shutter-shock point of view if the lens is short and light enough to permit it. Abstaining from much in the way of head support is likely to be helpful as well. The likely reasons are spelled out here:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3496076

For longer and heavier lens, things get more complicated because the center of gravity moves away from the shutter horizontally, increasing the risk that the shutter movement forms a moment arm no matter how you hold the camera and because you need to cradle the lens and/or use increased head support to prevent things from shaking on grounds other than shutter shock.

Yeah, that's the thread that gave me the idea. I tried a pistol grip, noted that it works but is clumsy, tried the double-handed grip and noted that it too was very efficient. I don't have any MFT lens heavier than the 75, which is perfectly ok to use like that.

It does feel awkward, though, after many years of supporting the lens with the left hand.

Shared feeling about awkwardness but glad to hear the theory works. Understanding what the problem is is always the first step towards a solution. Practically speaking, yes it works with the 75 and I try to hold that one body only. With the 100-300 though, it's a problem.

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