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Are there any GOOD Digital Instructionals?

Started Sep 20, 2013 | Discussions
BG454 Veteran Member • Posts: 7,345
Re: Are there any GOOD Digital Instructionals?

BobT wrote:

Started watching "this nut", and feel I just wasted 15 mins of my life. He sure does like to hear himself talk, but said nothing of value. Maybe I should have held on a bit longer.

I didn't even last that long.
I doubt we missed anything of value.

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 71,925
Re: Are there any GOOD Digital Instructionals?
2

ClavainVasko wrote:

BobT wrote:

I understand. So what are a couple of the most current, hottest, strongly recommended books (specific titles) that you would suggest?

I realize there are many out there. I need the best ones (in your opinion). So far, this thread has yielded only ONE such book title.

Thanks

Hi BobT,

I think you may have missed the point of a couple replies to you. Photographic technique, like music theory, is the same now for digital cameras as it was and still is for film camera's. So the "most current, hottest..." books may not be the most recently published. In fact the most current may in fact be decades old.

Right now I am reading The Amateur Photographer's Handbook by Aaron Sussman, first published in 1941. It has the fundamentals of photography whether you are using a film or digital camera. It has a very good history of photography that you most likely will not find in more 'current' books. This book is dense with information, but if the reader applies themselves they will most likely come away with a better understanding of photography and technique than if they read Brian Peterson's book Exposure or Scott Kelby's 3 or 4 books on digital photography.

Kind Regards,

Calvain

A big advantage of the old texts is that they were generally written by experts who got their facts right. We've just had a few active threads here discussing exposure, and some things become quite clear. One is that very many people here don't know what exposure is or how to manage it. Second is that many of those people gained their 'understanding' from Petersen's book. Next is from a quote , it's quite clear that Petersen doesn't understand exposure. He says (in an article ironically entitled 'Understanding the effect of ISO on exposure') 'In all five of these shots of my daughter flying towards me, I used the same action-stopping shutter speed of 1/250 sec. with my Nikon D200 but used a different ISO and, subsequently, a different aperture in order to keep the exposure constant.'  Just to clarify, if the scene is the same, the shutter speed the same and the aperture changes, the exposure changes. No ifs and no buts.

The problem is for the beginner, is that they have no way of discerning good information from bad, and if the bad also happens to be very popular, it's even more difficult.

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Bob

Osvaldo Cristo
Osvaldo Cristo Veteran Member • Posts: 4,465
Cambridge in Color

Cambridge in Color Tutorials  is a very good start up point to digital photography technology. I recommend it strongly.

Enjoy!

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O.Cristo - An Amateur Photographer
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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 71,925
Re: Cambridge in Color
4

Osvaldo Cristo wrote:

Cambridge in Color Tutorials is a very good start up point to digital photography technology. I recommend it strongly.

Enjoy!

Been there already in this thread. It's very poor, has many gross errors and misleads many people. To be avoided like the plague.

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Bob

alpineguy Forum Member • Posts: 67
Re: Cambridge in Color
2

Bobnt, It is obvious that you don't think very highly of the Cambridge in Color site. In another recent thread you had expressed a similar evaluation. But it is obvious also that some people like this site. Could you perhaps point out some of the errors and misinformation that you have found in the site's information. That in itself would be a valuable learning experience for the OP and others. These errors must be pretty grand to recommend folks avoid it like the plague.

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PenguinPhotoCo Veteran Member • Posts: 6,284
here's a good one (or 2)

there is a textbook on photography - very very good, but it's like $60. I think I paid $100 for mine a few years ago so maybe it's a bargain.
It's the text recomended for Certified Pro Photog.

http://www.amazon.com/Photography-10th-Edition-Barbara-London/dp/0205711499/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1379975824&sr=8-1&keywords=photography+text+book

It's better than the 'free' kodak books I got 30 years ago - whole set on ebay at the moment

http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-KODAK-LIBRARY-OF-CREATIVE-PHOTOGRAPHY-BOOK-SET-TIME-LIFE-BOOKS-1983-1985-HC-/251342595511?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a852fa5b7

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My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value

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BG454 Veteran Member • Posts: 7,345
Re: Cambridge in Color

bobn2 wrote:

Osvaldo Cristo wrote:

Cambridge in Color Tutorials is a very good start up point to digital photography technology. I recommend it strongly.

Enjoy!

Been there already in this thread. It's very poor, has many gross errors and misleads many people.

Examples please...

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 71,925
Re: Cambridge in Color
14

MisterBG wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

Osvaldo Cristo wrote:

Cambridge in Color Tutorials is a very good start up point to digital photography technology. I recommend it strongly.

Enjoy!

Been there already in this thread. It's very poor, has many gross errors and misleads many people.

Examples please...

Where to start...

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/camera-exposure.htm

In photography, the exposure settings of aperture, shutter speed and ISO speed are analogous to the width, time and quantity discussed above.

ISO is nothing like quantity. Reading this has misled people into thinking that increasing the ISO means you get more light.

ISO speed: controls the sensitivity of your camera's sensor to a given amount of light

No, it doesn't. The sensitivity of your camera's sensor never changes. ISO changes the relationship between exposure (as measured by the sensor) and image brightness, and doesn't change what the sensor does at all.

One can therefore use many combinations of the above three settings to achieve the same exposure.

No, only changing the f-number and shutter speed affects exposure.

The ISO speed determines how sensitive the camera is to incoming light. Similar to shutter speed, it also correlates 1:1 with how much the exposure increases or decreases.

No, it doesn't. Changing the ISO does not of itself changes the exposure. Only the f-number and shutter changes exposure. (see comments on the sensor above)

a lower ISO speed is almost always desirable, since higher ISO speeds dramatically increase image noise.

No they don't. Often higher ISO's reduce noise. What increases noise is low exposure.

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/camera-metering.htm

When shooting in RAW mode under tricky lighting, sometimes it is useful to set a slight negative exposure compensation (0.3-0.5). This decreases the chance of clipped highlights, yet still allows one to increase the exposure afterwards.

You cannot change exposure after capture.

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/image-noise.htm

"Image noise" is the digital equivalent of film grain for analogue cameras. Alternatively, one can think of it as analogous to the subtle background hiss you may hear from your audio system at full volume.

Only a small part of digital camera noise arises from similar mechanisms to radio background hiss, the idea that it is similar leads to many mistakes, shared by McHugh, below.

Noise increases with the sensitivity setting in the camera

No, if anything it reduces (particularly the background hiss kind of noise he's talking about)

Some degree of noise is always present in any electronic device that transmits or receives a "signal." For televisions this signal is the broadcast data transmitted over cable or received at the antenna; for digital cameras, the signal is the light which hits the camera sensor. Even though noise is unavoidable, it can become so small relative to the signal that it appears to be nonexistent. Thesignal to noise ratio (SNR) is a useful and universal way of comparing the relative amounts of signal and noise for any electronic system.

The most important noise in cameras is the noise in the light itself, ignored in this discussion - misidentifying the noise source leads to plenty of mistakes later.

A camera's "ISO setting" or "ISO speed" is a standard which describes its absolute sensitivity to light.

'ISO' does nothing of the sort. Just read the standard to see that it doesn't.

Random noise is characterized by intensity and color fluctuations above and below the actual image intensity. There will always be some random noise at any exposure length and it is most influenced by ISO speed. The pattern of random noise changes even if the exposure settings are identical.

This last statement is simply and demonstrably false (unless he's just saying it's random)

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/image-noise-2.htm

For digital cameras, darker regions will contain more noise than the brighter regions

Brighter regions contain more noise, but they have a higher signal to noise ratio.

You can also see that increasing ISO speed always produces higher noise for a given camera

Wrong, reducing exposure (which might happen as a consequence of increasing ISO) produces higher noise (more specifically, a lower SNR)

The greater the area of a pixel in the camera sensor, the more light gathering ability it will have — thus producing a stronger signal. As a result, cameras with physically larger pixels will generally appear less noisy since the signal is larger relative to the noise.

This is a misleading simplification, the reasons probably too complex to argue here. The 'stronger signal' bit is hopelessly simplified. All you do changing the pixel size is determine how often the signal is sampled, not how 'strong' (whatever than means) it is.

This is why cameras with more megapixels packed into the same sized camera sensor will not necessarily produce a better looking image.

In general more megapixels produces a better looking image, viewed the same size (there are exceptions)

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/dynamic-range.htm

dynamic range is generally higher for digital SLR cameras compared to compact cameras (due to larger pixel sizes)

Not at all true. In general, smaller pixels (on the same size sensor) produce higher DR's. Digital SLR's produce higher DR vecause the collect more light, which is due to having large apertures with the same AOV - it has nothing to do with having 'larger pixel sizes'.

The black level is limited by how accurately each photosite can be measured, and is therefore limited in darkness by image noise. Therefore, dynamic range generally increases for lower ISO speeds and cameras with less measurement noise.

'Black level' is not set by image noise (although a high black level might be used to mask shadow noise). There is no causality in this statement. DR increases for lowere ISO's simply because exposure is (usually) increased and more light collected.

Most digital cameras use a 10 to 14-bit A/D converter, and so their theoretical maximum dynamic range is 10-14 stops. However, this high bit depth only helps minimize image posterization since total dynamic range is usually limited by noise levels.

Once the bit depth exceeds the DR (in stops) the extra bits do not minimise posterisation, the dithering caused by the noise does that.

As sensor size increases, the depth of field will decrease for a given aperture (when filling the frame with a subject of the same size and distance).

No, actually it doesn't. If the aperture is the same the DOF is the same. Of course, for the same aperture, with the same AOV therefore different FL, the f-number is different, which is probably what he meant, but f-numner is not aperture (I didn't raise that terminological confusion when it occurred in the section on camera controls, now we see the price)

This is because larger sensors require one to get closer to their subject, or to use a longer focal length in order to fill the frame with that subject.

But he just said we're filling the frame with a subject the same size and distance, intoducing getting closer is just a confusion.

Larger sensor sizes can use smaller apertures before the diffraction airy disk becomes larger than the circle of confusion

He's already confused about apartures (see above). The simple truth he's not telling here is that diffraction is the same at the same DOF, whatever the sensor size.

Use the following calculator to estimate when diffraction begins to reduce sharpness.

No, don't. That calculator is complete nonsense, and applies to no observable reality.

The following diagrams show the size of the airy disk (theoretical maximum resolving ability) for two apertures against a grid representing pixel size:

Ths size of the Airy disc is not the 'theoretical maximum resolving ability'.

An important implication of the above results is that the diffraction-limited pixel size increases for larger sensors

There is no such thing as a 'diffraction limited pixel size'.

This factor may be critical when deciding on a new camera for your intended use, because more pixels may not necessarily provide more resolution (for your depth of field requirements). In fact, more pixels could even harm image quality by increasing noise and reducing dynamic range (next section).

There is no evidence whatever that this is true, in fact rather the reverse.

Larger sensors generally also have larger pixels (although this is not always the case), which give them the potential to produce lower image noise and have a higher dynamic range.

Not true. The larger DR of larger sensors derives from their ability to collect more light. For the same size sensor, more pixels will generally produce a larger DR.

Further, larger pixels receive a greater flux of photons during a given exposure time (at the same f-stop), so their light signal is much stronger. For a given amount of background noise, this produces a higher signal to noise ratio — and thus a smoother looking photo.

The size of the pixels does not affect the flux of photons, nor does it provide a stronger 'light signal'. As above, all it does is sample the signal that there is more frequently. The SNR is not higher (at the same measurement scale) and viewed the same size the picture is generally not smoother.

Depth of field is much shallower for larger format sensors

Only if you specify 'at the same f-number', which he hasn't.

In other words, if one were to use the smallest aperture before diffraction became significant, all sensor sizes would produce the same depth of field — even though the diffraction limited aperture will be different.

He's finally said the most important result but the bit about the 'diffraction limited aperture' is nonsense, This is something he has made up, a non-existant phenomenon.

That's just a few of his pages. Should I go on?

The site is riddled with nonsense, and a good part of the discussion that goes on on the forums here is clearing up the mistakes and misconceptions caused by that site.

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Bob

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 71,925
Re: Cambridge in Color
4

alpineguy wrote:

Bobnt, It is obvious that you don't think very highly of the Cambridge in Color site. In another recent thread you had expressed a similar evaluation. But it is obvious also that some people like this site. Could you perhaps point out some of the errors and misinformation that you have found in the site's information. That in itself would be a valuable learning experience for the OP and others. These errors must be pretty grand to recommend folks avoid it like the plague.

Yes, they are, not only grand but frequent. I explained some of it here. I don'y have the time to correct the whole site, and nor should I have to. I'm quite aware that the site is popular. The problem is, if you go out to learn, you haven't got the knowledge to tell good from bad information. CIC has much bad (and some good) information. It's popular because its nicely presented, and also cleverly titled to (falsely) suggest affiliation with Cambridge University. However if you can't tell the good from the bad, you come away misinformed on many of the essentials. I spend a lot of time on these forums trying to help people understand better, which in the end helps their photography, I believe. In the course of those discussions I have learned that many people acquired their wrong information from that site (others from Bryan Peterson's 'Understanding Exposure' - another source that misinforms as it informs).

So, that is why I advise, if you want to learn good information, avoid that site like the plague.

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Bob

Sammy Yousef
Sammy Yousef Veteran Member • Posts: 4,657
Re: avoid http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials.htm
2

bobn2 wrote:

Joe186 wrote:

Marti58 wrote:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials.htm

Best I've ever seen! Paid or free! Bravo!

One of the worst I've seen. Full of technical gaffes and misinformation. That site by itself is responsible for very many photographers getting the basics wrong. It should carry a health warning.

Care to offer a better alternative instead of just rubbishing a widely respected site?

At least you offered an explanation of why you don't like the site. I see it all comes down to this pedantry about the use of the word exposure again. I'm not going into that except to say whether it's technically correct to call ISO part of the exposure or not the practical advice on the site is very good, and there are clearly others who disagree. Your campaign about ditching exposure when refering to ISO not withstanding I honestly don't see how it needs a health warning. Or does everything you disagree with need a health warning?

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Sammy.
My forum postings reflect my own opinions and not those of my employer. I'm not employed in the photo business.

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 71,925
Re: avoid http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials.htm
4

Sammy Yousef wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

Joe186 wrote:

Marti58 wrote:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials.htm

Best I've ever seen! Paid or free! Bravo!

One of the worst I've seen. Full of technical gaffes and misinformation. That site by itself is responsible for very many photographers getting the basics wrong. It should carry a health warning.

Care to offer a better alternative instead of just rubbishing a widely respected site?

'Widely respected' by whom? I explained in detail the mistakes and falsehoods that site contains. I know from the discussions on this site that those mistakes and falsehoods are believed and spread, and as a result many photographers end up not knowing the basics of their subject, and even arguing at length that the basics are different from they are.,

At least you offered an explanation of why you don't like the site.

I said nothing about whether I like the site or not. I explained the many mistakes and falsehoods.

I see it all comes down to this pedantry about the use of the word exposure again.

Not just exposure, also diffraction, noise, sensor operation. And not juts 'pedantry'. It's the difference between something that's true and something that isn't. It's the difference between understanding the underpinning theory of the craft or not. And if you're going to purport to teach the underlying theory, why teach it wrong? Fine, if you think the theory isn't important, just leave it alone. If you're going to cover the theory, get it right. BTW, the definition of 'exposure' is the absolute basics of photographic theory. Without a definition of 'exposure', there is no 'ISO', there are no film characteristic curves, there is no metric of sensor performance. So no, it is not just a matter of opinion.

I'm not going into that except to say whether it's technically correct to call ISO part of the exposure or not the practical advice on the site is very good, and there are clearly others who disagree.

Sure, they may argue, but it's not a matter to be settled by debate. The definition of 'exposure' is embedded in the ISO standards and the whole theory of photography. Redefine it and the whole lot goes out of the window.

Your campaign about ditching exposure when refering to ISO not withstanding I honestly don't see how it needs a health warning. Or does everything you disagree with need a health warning?

Things that present the facts incorrectly in a way the misleads beginners and damages their photographic practice needs a health warning. The fact that you are amongst the damaged and don't want to admit it is beside the point.

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Bob

Sammy Yousef
Sammy Yousef Veteran Member • Posts: 4,657
Avoid pedants and people who insist there is only one way
4

bobn2 wrote:

Sammy Yousef wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

Joe186 wrote:

Marti58 wrote:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials.htm

Best I've ever seen! Paid or free! Bravo!

One of the worst I've seen. Full of technical gaffes and misinformation. That site by itself is responsible for very many photographers getting the basics wrong. It should carry a health warning.

Care to offer a better alternative instead of just rubbishing a widely respected site?

'Widely respected' by whom? I explained in detail the mistakes and falsehoods that site contains. I know from the discussions on this site that those mistakes and falsehoods are believed and spread, and as a result many photographers end up not knowing the basics of their subject, and even arguing at length that the basics are different from they are.,

Tell me Bob. Do you also avoid Nikon cameras because Flash Exposure Compensation takes into account ISO and according to you that's just plain wrong? Do you tell people to avoid reading their camera manuals?

I see it all comes down to this pedantry about the use of the word exposure again.

Not just exposure, also diffraction, noise, sensor operation. And not juts 'pedantry'. It's the difference between something that's true and something that isn't. It's the difference between understanding the underpinning theory of the craft or not.

Underpinning theory is not something everyone agrees on or even wants to understand. I've found the site quite useful, and I'm well aware that any site is going to contain errata.

And if you're going to purport to teach the underlying theory, why teach it wrong? Fine, if you think the theory isn't important, just leave it alone. If you're going to cover the theory, get it right. BTW, the definition of 'exposure' is the absolute basics of photographic theory. Without a definition of 'exposure', there is no 'ISO', there are no film characteristic curves, there is no metric of sensor performance. So no, it is not just a matter of opinion.

RUBBISH. Complete gibberish. You can have multiple different definitions used by different people for understanding at different levels.

You are like the physics professor who walks into a Kindergarten and starts trying to teach the students Tensor Calculus so that they can understand General Relativity, when they have not yet grasped how to count, let alone what Newtonian mechanics is but insists that such incorrect information as that Newton fellow would teach you is just factually incorrect rubbish.

I'm not going into that except to say whether it's technically correct to call ISO part of the exposure or not the practical advice on the site is very good, and there are clearly others who disagree.

Sure, they may argue, but it's not a matter to be settled by debate. The definition of 'exposure' is embedded in the ISO standards and the whole theory of photography. Redefine it and the whole lot goes out of the window.

Fantastic. In the context of ISO standards and engineering of cameras that is how the word exposure should be used.

Your campaign about ditching exposure when refering to ISO not withstanding I honestly don't see how it needs a health warning. Or does everything you disagree with need a health warning?

Things that present the facts incorrectly in a way the misleads beginners and damages their photographic practice needs a health warning. The fact that you are amongst the damaged and don't want to admit it is beside the point.

The fact that you have no concept of people skills and need to call me damaged to make your point makes me pity you. Quite literally. Damaged indeed!

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Sammy.
My forum postings reflect my own opinions and not those of my employer. I'm not employed in the photo business.

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 71,925
Re: Avoid pedants and people who insist there is only one way

Sammy Yousef wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

Sammy Yousef wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

Joe186 wrote:

Marti58 wrote:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials.htm

Best I've ever seen! Paid or free! Bravo!

One of the worst I've seen. Full of technical gaffes and misinformation. That site by itself is responsible for very many photographers getting the basics wrong. It should carry a health warning.

Care to offer a better alternative instead of just rubbishing a widely respected site?

'Widely respected' by whom? I explained in detail the mistakes and falsehoods that site contains. I know from the discussions on this site that those mistakes and falsehoods are believed and spread, and as a result many photographers end up not knowing the basics of their subject, and even arguing at length that the basics are different from they are.,

Tell me Bob. Do you also avoid Nikon cameras because Flash Exposure Compensation takes into account ISO and according to you that's just plain wrong?

It's not 'plain wrong' according to me. Where have I ever suggested such a thing.

Do you tell people to avoid reading their camera manuals?

Where their camera manuals have mistakes, I point them out, yes.

I see it all comes down to this pedantry about the use of the word exposure again.

Not just exposure, also diffraction, noise, sensor operation. And not juts 'pedantry'. It's the difference between something that's true and something that isn't. It's the difference between understanding the underpinning theory of the craft or not.

Underpinning theory is not something everyone agrees on or even wants to understand. I've found the site quite useful, and I'm well aware that any site is going to contain errata.

The site claims to be presenting the underlying theory, and it gets it wrong. Not slightly wrong, very wrong in many places. We have a process in science and engineering for establishing the validity of theory, and I'm afraid it isn't a popularity contest. You don't want the science and engineering version, fine, don't have it, but don't present it wrong and pretend that's the underlying theory.

And if you're going to purport to teach the underlying theory, why teach it wrong? Fine, if you think the theory isn't important, just leave it alone. If you're going to cover the theory, get it right. BTW, the definition of 'exposure' is the absolute basics of photographic theory. Without a definition of 'exposure', there is no 'ISO', there are no film characteristic curves, there is no metric of sensor performance. So no, it is not just a matter of opinion.

RUBBISH. Complete gibberish. You can have multiple different definitions used by different people for understanding at different levels.

Sorry, theory depends on precise definitions. There can be no ISO without a definition of exposure as the density of light (time time) at the image plane, because that is how the ISO standards are defined. So, whose word do you think people should take for what ISO is, yours or ISO's?

You are like the physics professor who walks into a Kindergarten and starts trying to teach the students Tensor Calculus so that they can understand General Relativity, when they have not yet grasped how to count, let alone what Newtonian mechanics is but insists that such incorrect information as that Newton fellow would teach you is just factually incorrect rubbish.

Nonsense. I wouldn't expect a physics professor to try to teach tensor calculus and general relativity to a kindergaten, I would expect him to talk about the universe at a level appropriate to his audience, but he wouldn't be telling them that the Earth is flat and at the centre of the Universe. Or that there were four elements and fire happened because phlogiston was released by burning materials. Tell it simply, but tell it right.

I'm not going into that except to say whether it's technically correct to call ISO part of the exposure or not the practical advice on the site is very good, and there are clearly others who disagree.

Sure, they may argue, but it's not a matter to be settled by debate. The definition of 'exposure' is embedded in the ISO standards and the whole theory of photography. Redefine it and the whole lot goes out of the window.

Fantastic. In the context of ISO standards and engineering of cameras that is how the word exposure should be used.

Yes, and that is the context that those pages of the website was all about.

Your campaign about ditching exposure when refering to ISO not withstanding I honestly don't see how it needs a health warning. Or does everything you disagree with need a health warning?

Things that present the facts incorrectly in a way the misleads beginners and damages their photographic practice needs a health warning. The fact that you are amongst the damaged and don't want to admit it is beside the point.

The fact that you have no concept of people skills and need to call me damaged to make your point makes me pity you. Quite literally. Damaged indeed!

Yes, you are amongst the damage. You've accepted falsehoods and they've become so important to your emotional makeup that you'd rather rail against the truth than accept it.

So far as beginners are concerned, I have enough respect for them to think that they should be told the truth, even if it's told simply. I've never believed in lying to make something more palatable. Especially because in this case the truth is simpler than the lie.

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Bob

Sammy Yousef
Sammy Yousef Veteran Member • Posts: 4,657
Re: Avoid pedants and people who insist there is only one way
3

bobn2 wrote:

Do you tell people to avoid reading their camera manuals?

Where their camera manuals have mistakes, I point them out, yes.

That is fine. But in the case of Cambridge In Colour you're not just pointing them out, you're telling them the site is worse than useless - that it is harmful. You wouldn't do that because a camera manual has some mistakes in it (or at least you perceive there are). Care to point out the difference?

The site claims to be presenting the underlying theory, and it gets it wrong. Not slightly wrong, very wrong in many places. We have a process in science and engineering for establishing the validity of theory, and I'm afraid it isn't a popularity contest. You don't want the science and engineering version, fine, don't have it, but don't present it wrong and pretend that's the underlying theory.

Please do not presume to lecture someone with a science degree in the scientific method. I assure you I'll run rings around you.

Once again. Newtonian mechanics is wrong. We know General Relativity is a more accurate theory. Not just in terms of words and definitions, but in terms of quantitative prediction. Nevertheless Newtonian mechanics works well for most cases and has been good enough to launch probes to the outer planets and put men on the moon.

You have no concept of what the word theory means. It is more a proven model than a statement of absolute fact. It takes exactly 1 repeatable experiment to disprove a theory. But as above you do not dump it until you have something better. And even when you do have something better you can use a theory as a short cut.

And if you're going to purport to teach the underlying theory, why teach it wrong? Fine, if you think the theory isn't important, just leave it alone. If you're going to cover the theory, get it right. BTW, the definition of 'exposure' is the absolute basics of photographic theory. Without a definition of 'exposure', there is no 'ISO', there are no film characteristic curves, there is no metric of sensor performance. So no, it is not just a matter of opinion.

RUBBISH. Complete gibberish. You can have multiple different definitions used by different people for understanding at different levels.

Sorry, theory depends on precise definitions. There can be no ISO without a definition of exposure as the density of light (time time) at the image plane, because that is how the ISO standards are defined. So, whose word do you think people should take for what ISO is, yours or ISO's?

Which theory. There is not one global unified theory of everything.

You are like the physics professor who walks into a Kindergarten and starts trying to teach the students Tensor Calculus so that they can understand General Relativity, when they have not yet grasped how to count, let alone what Newtonian mechanics is but insists that such incorrect information as that Newton fellow would teach you is just factually incorrect rubbish.

Nonsense. I wouldn't expect a physics professor to try to teach tensor calculus and general relativity to a kindergaten, I would expect him to talk about the universe at a level appropriate to his audience, but he wouldn't be telling them that the Earth is flat and at the centre of the Universe. Or that there were four elements and fire happened because phlogiston was released by burning materials. Tell it simply, but tell it right.

The appropriate model for children is a simple description of Newtonian mechanics. Which is a theory that we know is incorrect. The universe is not clockwork. Motion is not absolute and independent of the observer. Simultaneity depends on the observer too. Gravity is more accurately modelled as a curving of space-time than as an attraction between bodies. None of these ideas are intuitive to a young child. Most will not get more out of being told the truth - that to accurately model the universe you need advanced calculus. Instead around highschool we teach them simple Newtonian mechanics - F=ma. s=uat+1/2at^2. Stuff that anyone with a basic knowledge of algebra can easily apply. Even though we know it not to be accurate near deep gravity wells and as relative motion increases to significant fractions of the speed of light, this "incorrect" theory is good enough to get most people through life. You would discard it as wrong and disrespectful. I'll repeat - you have demonstrated that you have NO IDEA how science works.

Yes, you are amongst the damage. You've accepted falsehoods and they've become so important to your emotional makeup that you'd rather rail against the truth than accept it.

You rant and rave about theories and truth as if there is one absolute truth and a theory once established can't be overturned. Your wilful ignorance is not my problem and not something I choose to discuss with you any more.

So far as beginners are concerned, I have enough respect for them to think that they should be told the truth, even if it's told simply. I've never believed in lying to make something more palatable. Especially because in this case the truth is simpler than the lie.

A definition chosen by yourself doesn't constitute truth. And a more practical definition chosen by someone else is not a lie.

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Sammy.
My forum postings reflect my own opinions and not those of my employer. I'm not employed in the photo business.

olliess Senior Member • Posts: 1,349
Re: Avoid pedants and people who insist there is only one way

bobn2 wrote:

Sammy Yousef wrote:

You are like the physics professor who walks into a Kindergarten and starts trying to teach the students Tensor Calculus so that they can understand General Relativity, when they have not yet grasped how to count...

Nonsense. I wouldn't expect a physics professor to try to teach tensor calculus and general relativity to a kindergaten, I would expect him to talk about the universe at a level appropriate to his audience, but he wouldn't be telling them that the Earth is flat and at the centre of the Universe.

Ironically, this is the practically the first thing we tell students to accept when we actually start doingphysics on the non-flat, non-rotating, non-privileged Earth.  

Anyway, this comment was made solely for amusement purposes. Carry on with your regularly scheduled argument!

knickerhawk Veteran Member • Posts: 7,615
Thanks Bob!

It's really quite remarkable how much Cambridge in Colour gets wrong and how much it and others like Phil Askey influenced the thinking of those like me who got into digital early on without the kind of scientific background to question these assumptions. Ever since, it's been a real struggle for me to free myself from this mis-grounding in theory and the mistakes it leads to in practice.

The problem is that CinC has really nice graphics and presentation. It's hard to compete with that with long textual explanations, equations and the occasional comparison shots scattered in forums like this. I wish somebody (like you?!?) would invest the effort to create a comparable site. Perhaps you could convince somebody from Oxford to help you with all of the effort and simultaneously one-up Cambridge.

Oxford in Colour anyone?

atrhys Forum Member • Posts: 99
Re: Cambridge in Color
2

It seems that two different things are being discussed here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you talk exposure you are referring to the amount of light allowed to touch the sensor.

Cambridge in Color, on the other hand, seems to refer to exposure in terms of a properly exposed photo. This is what most beginners (especially those who did not learn on film) are looking at.

Technically you are correct, but I believe that knowing how noise works doesn't necessarily help beginners understand what it does or how to work with it. You must understand that you have a lot of experience (I assume), and therefore what seems mundane to you may be very challenging for beginners.

An analogy would be that I use computers all the time. I know how to use them and what they do for me. I do not know how they work. I know electricity travels down circuits, somehow creates 1s and 0s, and then is converted into programing languages which make the computer work. But does that lack of understanding really prevent me or hinder me from basic computer use?

I believe the site tries to explain things in terms of the final desired effect which is where the information becomes technically incorrect. It is still helpful for beginners who are already having enough trouble understanding photography to get a general grasp of what they are doing. They can learn the technical bits later.

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Austinian
Austinian Forum Pro • Posts: 13,570
Re: Cambridge in Color

atrhys wrote:

An analogy would be that I use computers all the time. I know how to use them and what they do for me. I do not know how they work. I know electricity travels down circuits, somehow creates 1s and 0s, and then is converted into programing languages which make the computer work. But does that lack of understanding really prevent me or hinder me from basic computer use?

As long as your use remains truly basic, perhaps not.  Many people can be happy setting their camera on "intelligent auto" or whatever it's called, and get all the fine pictures they want with virtually no technical knowledge at all. And that's a good thing.  But after a while some may want to do more on their own, and need to learn how.

For months after I bought my first computer I did nothing but play games.  Then I started wondering about just how they made the pretty shapes and colors on the screen...and then I wanted to make pretty shapes and colors of my own. 

I believe the site tries to explain things in terms of the final desired effect which is where the information becomes technically incorrect. It is still helpful for beginners who are already having enough trouble understanding photography to get a general grasp of what they are doing. They can learn the technical bits later.

The problem with giving them wrong information in the beginning, is that before they can learn the 'technical bits' correctly, they have to UNlearn the technical bits that were wrong.

Now, that can be really confusing!  I know, because I was confused about the whole ISO/exposure issue that launched so many of these threads.  I'm very grateful to all the expert posters who cleared up the confusion and gave me the knowledge I needed to deal with some photo problems that I had faced.

It's simpler for all concerned to just have correct information from the beginning, no matter how much or little of it is needed.

And for people that don't need to know the technical bits, they should just skip any thread that doesn't matter to them.  I sure don't read most of the threads here!

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Alpha Jack Senior Member • Posts: 1,539
Re: Thanks Bob!

It's really quite remarkable how much Cambridge in Colour gets wrong and how much it and others like Phil Askey influenced the thinking of those like me who got into digital early on without the kind of scientific background to question these assumptions. Ever since, it's been a real struggle for me to free myself from this mis-grounding in theory and the mistakes it leads to in practice.

The problem is that CinC has really nice graphics and presentation. It's hard to compete with that with long textual explanations, equations and the occasional comparison shots scattered in forums like this. I wish somebody (like you?!?) would invest the effort to create a comparable site. Perhaps you could convince somebody from Oxford to help you with all of the effort and simultaneously one-up Cambridge.

Oxford in Colour anyone?

I think Bob would rather it be MIT in Black and White.
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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 71,925
Re: Avoid pedants and people who insist there is only one way
2

Sammy Yousef wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

Do you tell people to avoid reading their camera manuals?

Where their camera manuals have mistakes, I point them out, yes.

That is fine. But in the case of Cambridge In Colour you're not just pointing them out, you're telling them the site is worse than useless - that it is harmful. You wouldn't do that because a camera manual has some mistakes in it (or at least you perceive there are). Care to point out the difference?

The difference is simply the number of very basic errors in CIC. What I listed, in response to a request for examples, is a very small part of the bloomer list. Worse, that site has produced some of the most damaging myths going around. I'm thinking 'diffraction limited pixel size' which led a whole load of people to think they'd get worse results with more pixels, or that they couldn't shoot a 24MP camera with small apertures, or whatever. I've had it quoted to me countless times. And it is complete nonsense. It doesn't exist. It comes as a result of treating the Airy disc as a black blob, which it isn't.

The site claims to be presenting the underlying theory, and it gets it wrong. Not slightly wrong, very wrong in many places. We have a process in science and engineering for establishing the validity of theory, and I'm afraid it isn't a popularity contest. You don't want the science and engineering version, fine, don't have it, but don't present it wrong and pretend that's the underlying theory.

Please do not presume to lecture someone with a science degree in the scientific method. I assure you I'll run rings around you.

I assure you that you won't. I know the level of assimilation you have of scientific method from your posts. And don't worry, I can trump your 'science degree' several times over.

Once again. Newtonian mechanics is wrong.

All scientific theories are 'wrong' at some level, but to call them 'wrong' or 'right' isn't very scientific. Notice real scientists tend to call them 'successful' - which means that they successfully describe and predict the observable behaviour of the Universe. Newtonian Mecjhanics is pretty successful.

We know General Relativity is a more accurate theory. Not just in terms of words and definitions, but in terms of quantitative prediction. Nevertheless Newtonian mechanics works well for most cases and has been good enough to launch probes to the outer planets and put men on the moon.

You have no concept of what the word theory means. It is more a proven model than a statement of absolute fact. It takes exactly 1 repeatable experiment to disprove a theory. But as above you do not dump it until you have something better. And even when you do have something better you can use a theory as a short cut.

It was you saying Newtonian Mechanics is 'wrong'. Who is it who has no idea of what the word theory means? In any case, on the basis of your doctrine that a word can mean anything that you want it to, it can mean anything I want it to. You can't have it both ways.

And if you're going to purport to teach the underlying theory, why teach it wrong? Fine, if you think the theory isn't important, just leave it alone. If you're going to cover the theory, get it right. BTW, the definition of 'exposure' is the absolute basics of photographic theory. Without a definition of 'exposure', there is no 'ISO', there are no film characteristic curves, there is no metric of sensor performance. So no, it is not just a matter of opinion.

RUBBISH. Complete gibberish. You can have multiple different definitions used by different people for understanding at different levels.

Sorry, theory depends on precise definitions. There can be no ISO without a definition of exposure as the density of light (time time) at the image plane, because that is how the ISO standards are defined. So, whose word do you think people should take for what ISO is, yours or ISO's?

Which theory. There is not one global unified theory of everything.

All theories depend on precise definitions, bar none. So do standards, and ISO Exposure Index is a standard.

You are like the physics professor who walks into a Kindergarten and starts trying to teach the students Tensor Calculus so that they can understand General Relativity, when they have not yet grasped how to count, let alone what Newtonian mechanics is but insists that such incorrect information as that Newton fellow would teach you is just factually incorrect rubbish.

Nonsense. I wouldn't expect a physics professor to try to teach tensor calculus and general relativity to a kindergaten, I would expect him to talk about the universe at a level appropriate to his audience, but he wouldn't be telling them that the Earth is flat and at the centre of the Universe. Or that there were four elements and fire happened because phlogiston was released by burning materials. Tell it simply, but tell it right.

The appropriate model for children is a simple description of Newtonian mechanics. Which is a theory that we know is incorrect.

Wrong, see above. In any case, in teaching children a simplified model of Newtonian mechanics you will be teaching them nothing that is wrong.

The universe is not clockwork. Motion is not absolute and independent of the observer.

But actually, you will never teach them that it is. there is simply not reason to cover relativity in a first school class.

Simultaneity depends on the observer too. Gravity is more accurately modelled as a curving of space-time than as an attraction between bodies. None of these ideas are intuitive to a young child. Most will not get more out of being told the truth - that to accurately model the universe you need advanced calculus. Instead around highschool we teach them simple Newtonian mechanics - F=ma. s=uat+1/2at^2. Stuff that anyone with a basic knowledge of algebra can easily apply. Even though we know it not to be accurate near deep gravity wells and as relative motion increases to significant fractions of the speed of light, this "incorrect" theory is good enough to get most people through life. You would discard it as wrong and disrespectful. I'll repeat - you have demonstrated that you have NO IDEA how science works.

Lucky for me that the people who reviewed my papers didn't spot that, isn't it?

Yes, you are amongst the damage. You've accepted falsehoods and they've become so important to your emotional makeup that you'd rather rail against the truth than accept it.

You rant and rave about theories and truth as if there is one absolute truth and a theory once established can't be overturned. Your wilful ignorance is not my problem and not something I choose to discuss with you any more.

No, what I 'rant and rave' about is teaching people that the world is flat, or that fire is due to phlogiston emission, or that the Earth is the centre of the universe, or that rats breed by spontaneous generation. You know, those theories that don't predict the behaviour of the universe, and have rightly been abandoned.

So far as beginners are concerned, I have enough respect for them to think that they should be told the truth, even if it's told simply. I've never believed in lying to make something more palatable. Especially because in this case the truth is simpler than the lie.

A definition chosen by yourself doesn't constitute truth. And a more practical definition chosen by someone else is not a lie.

It's not a definition chosen by myself. It's a definition chosen by scientists as a result of a long peer reviewed publishing history, enshrined by the ISO as the basis for its standards and put into every reliable text on the subject (you know, the kind of text that might be used in teaching a science degree).

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Bob

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