Thom Hogan: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line

Started Sep 20, 2013 | Discussions
rbattsall Regular Member • Posts: 376
Re: I am not really sure if they are skimming the cream either ..
1

jim stirling wrote:

rrr_hhh wrote:

Sergey_Green wrote:

Sean Nelson wrote:

justmeMN wrote:

If Olympus had been aggressive in pricing, the D7100 would have been toast this Christmas.

Oh please. Here (USA), Olympus can't even get their product on store shelves, and have virtually no advertising.

I think that getting stock into stores is the bigger half of the problem. If they price the cameras competitively then I think retailers would be a lot more inclined to stock them. But right now it seems like Panasonic and Olympus are both skimming the cream from the enthusiasts who are willing to pay a premium for their gear.

Here in EU ( and forget about dX )

Nikon D600 (SLR) Gehäuse (VBA340AE) ab €1418,78

Olympus OM-D E-M1 (EVIL) Gehäuse schwarz (V207010BE000) ab €1499,

Canon EOS 6D (SLR) Gehäuse (8035B022) ab €1515,04

I already asked the same question somewhere else, what would you buy for the same money;

  1. the camera that is easier to carry
  2. the camera that will take better images

Many, and those who know what to do with it, take the second option. And so the stores are hardly making any profits on the first. In fact, Olympus imaging division themselves have been losing money for quite some time now, and OM-D is not helping much either.

It isn't as simple as you make it : the real question is how much more weight and bulk people will accept for the marginal IQ they would gain and that marginal IQ increase (which many people didn't really need) comes along with a huge size/weight increase (often the total gear weight is twice as heavy).

To be fair that same argument can be put forward for one camera solutions such as the RX100 which is notably closer in sensor performance to the E-M5 than the E-M5 is to the D800e {all selected for being best in each sensor size} The RX100 has almost exactly the same colour depth and DR as the E-M5 while being a fraction over one stop poorer in high ISO. The D800 on the other hand has a full 2.8 stops colour depth advantage along with, 2 stops DR and 1.7 stops high ISO advantage over the E-M5 along with the extra resolution, I think I would say that is more than a marginal gain.

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/812|0/%28brand%29/Sony/%28appareil2%29/793|0/%28brand2%29/Olympus/%28appareil3%29/814|0/%28brand3%29/Nikon

Oh Jim, If you care that much then if you haven't already ( and really suspect you already have! ) go buy a D800 and brag about it in the Nikon forum as most people in this forum don't really care. You see for most regulars here m43 is already good enough for most of the pictures they take most of the time so they are mostly satisfied already.

I was happy with m43 in the last generation of cameras who's sensor performance persuaded me to sell my Canon 5Dii and about 20kg of glass and the m43 later cameras are even better.

This continuous debate that 'my sensor is bigger than yours so I have the best camera' is getting very boring and clogging this forum. It would be better if you started some threads in the Nikon forum with headers like - 'Hey My Nikon has the best sensor this side of medium format - I don't understand why some people can't see the benefit of it over m43!' Plenty of people will happily agree with you and I might even chirp in with 'but what about medium format!'

And to try to compare a compact to people with interchangeable lenses is just silly. You don't need to convince anyone else, just be happy that you have chosen the best gear for you....(?) or is that the reason you like it here so much.

 rbattsall's gear list:rbattsall's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Olympus PEN E-P5 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 45mm F1.8 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 12mm 1:2 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 17mm 1:1.8 +5 more
technic Veteran Member • Posts: 8,932
Re: That's what I see

sderdiarian wrote:

What lengths they'll go to in maintaining the charade that they can compete on size, but give them credit if buyers swallow the bait.

wrong, it DOES compete on size/weight with m43 cameras with a comparable feature set (e.g. good quality EVF) and kit zoom. Canon knows that many potential mirrorless buyers only buy the kit zoom and no extra lenses, they want a 'better quality compact'. With the SL1 you get about 50% more sensor and most of the same features for a LOT less money, compared to m43.

So, mirrorless is within shooting distance of carving out 20% of DSLR sales, this despite Canon and Nikon's already described advantages in big box sales, brand recognition and advertising budgets. And this in a system introduced and built from scratch less than five years ago (G-1 in Jan. '09, E-P1 in July '09).

From what I have seen over the last year, mirrorless sales are declining while DSLR sales are still doing pretty well. I'm not sure if this is the revolution you are claiming it to be. And don't forget that much of the m43 sales numbers are old models that are dumped for very low prices ...

OP sderdiarian Veteran Member • Posts: 4,229
Re: I think Thom may be overstating a bit

TrapperJohn wrote:

I do know that I've had a ball with the little EM5. Haven't enjoyed a new camera this much for a very long time. Even just that sense of childlike wonder and amazement, when I pulled it out of the box for the first time - it's so small, and it's such a jewel. Nice to find that in use, it backed up that first impression with the boost in DR, the killer IBIS, and a few other things. Heck, the EVF was pretty darn good, and I was concerned about that.

CSC is here to stay, and it's where all the really interesting things in photography are happening.

Preaching to the choir.

I got into 4/3's for the smaller body sizes (E-xxx's) and quality lenses at reasonable prices (SG and HG). Stuck my toe in the water with an E-PM1, not an optimal experience. Then jumped in with an E-M5 refurbished kit last December out of frustration that Olympus had clearly discontinued their E-xxx line.

Surprised by joy, as they say.

While the new E-M1's EVF may be better, I still love the EVF in my E-M5 that allows me to set its brightness and hue, view my settings along with a framing grid, level and even a histogram if I'd like. Add in IBIS that works wonders, SCP that makes changing settings a breeze, a high-res flip/touch OLED screen, dual control wheels, image focusing magnification, quiet shutter (love its sound), a weathersealed sturdy alloy body, and, at the heart of it, the 16MP Olympus tuned Sony sensor that allows me to shoot noise free up to ISO 3200.

You put it well, a jewel. As are the many available lenses that are small enough I can just toss them in my pocket.  Little wonder that there was such fervor demonstrated in placing it at the top of the heap in last year's DPR Reader's Choice Awards.

The reviews are now coming in on the E-M1, Olympus' new flagship mFT body, and it's clearly raised the bar still higher. The text below (including the troll comment) is from this post currently running on 43Rumors:

http://www.43rumors.com/full-e-m1-review-at-camera-reviews/

" Cameras.Reviewed.com (Click here) published the full Olympus E-M1 review. They write:

The OM-D E-M1 is bar-none the best stills-shooting experience within the Micro Four Thirds system, with image quality good enough for the working photographer. This camera is a loud and clear statement of intent from Olympus—Micro Four Thirds can be for pros, too.

They have scored it a 9.8 out of 10 and awarded it with the Editor’s Choice. compared with the Panasonic GX7, which also earned a 9.8, though the E-M1 outpoints it the our dynamic range, high ISO, speed, and resolution tests thanks to the excellent 12-40mm f/2.8 Pro lens. The GX7 is a better performer in white balance and video, however.

Luminous Landscape (Click here) concluded their E-M1 four part review with a final trip in Paris:

At the end of my week shooting with the E-M1 during my vacation in Paris I can summarize my experience as being almost 100% positive. The camera is small a light enough to be carried anywhere, for hours at a time and with a small / light shoulder bag full of lenses from 14mm – 600mm equivalent. That’s the real benefit of the MFT format – lens size.

And the following LL sentence is made for the 43rumors trolls that love to remark the Full Frame or APS-C vs FT sensor size difference:

The MFT advantage used to be smaller cameras and smaller and lighter lenses. Now the body size advantage has been challenged, but the lens size advantage remains, and always will, MFT used to mean some compromises when it came to image quality, but those days are past. Only the most neurotic pixel peeper will find anyhting to kvetch about with files from the Olympus E-M1 and its contemporaries.

Gotcha trolls?

"

End of quote. And by way of clarification, my original post of the excerpt from Thom's article was on mFT relative to Nikon DX bodies (i.e., APS-C), not FF.

-- hide signature --

Sailin' Steve

 sderdiarian's gear list:sderdiarian's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 Olympus OM-D E-M10 II Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Olympus M.Zuiko ED 75-300mm 1:4.8-6.7 II Panasonic Lumix G Vario HD 12-32mm F3.5-5.6 Mega OIS +1 more
Old Listener
Old Listener Senior Member • Posts: 1,959
Re: Thom Hogan: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line

Chez Wimpy wrote:

wildlifr wrote:

Aside from that, what's recommended to dx users is to buy fx lenses so that if/when the move to FF happens, you don't have to rebuy lenses.

And in the meanwhile, just pretend you are taking the pictures that you want to...

-- hide signature --

-CW

It may have escaped your notice that IQ isn't compromised when you use a FF capable lens on a DXZ body.  A not-so-wise crack.

A FF lens is bigger and heavier than an equivalent DX lens.  If Nikon and Canon had a full line of DX only lenses, the weight difference between m4/3 and DX would be smaller.

 Old Listener's gear list:Old Listener's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ50 Panasonic FZ1000 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G6 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G7 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 60mm 1:2.8 Macro +5 more
Promit Senior Member • Posts: 2,007
Re: That's what I see

technic wrote:

sderdiarian wrote:

What lengths they'll go to in maintaining the charade that they can compete on size, but give them credit if buyers swallow the bait.

wrong, it DOES compete on size/weight with m43 cameras with a comparable feature set (e.g. good quality EVF) and kit zoom. Canon knows that many potential mirrorless buyers only buy the kit zoom and no extra lenses, they want a 'better quality compact'. With the SL1 you get about 50% more sensor and most of the same features for a LOT less money, compared to m43.

I don't know if you're trolling or not, but you're certainly embarrassing yourself.

The bodies are similarly sized, it's true. But build quality? The EM5 is magnesium alloy shell with weather sealing. The SL1 is the cheapest of the cheap for materials. The Canon's stripped for controls, too. There are two kit zoom options for the E-M5; the 14-42mm which is directly comparable to the 18-55 STM weighs less and is much smaller. The 12-50mm is the same size and weight as the STM but offers extended range (15-70 or so on 1.6x), macro, power zoom, and weather sealing. Both lenses are noticeably better made than the Canon 18-55.

Oh that's right, the larger sensor. Let's just check what that's getting you...

Oh. And you don't even get dual pixel AF to compensate for the shoddy sensor specs. Of course with one cross type and nine total AF points, without micro adjust, you might want to watch out for the AF system in general. At least DOF will be a bit slimmer, right?

The hilarious part is actually that Canon has the balls to ask $750 for the SL1. A T3i would be a much better choice for less money, every time. Heck, Pentax will give you more for the money. The Olympus is more expensive and it's in a different class entirely.

 Promit's gear list:Promit's gear list
Sony a77 II Sony Alpha a7R II Sony a99 II Sony DT 16-50mm F2.8 SSM Sony DT 35mm F1.8 SAM +7 more
justmeMN Veteran Member • Posts: 5,379
Re: That's what I see

As for the SL1, it's...

10% narrower, 3% shorter, and weighs 18% less than the Olympus  E-M1.

Promit Senior Member • Posts: 2,007
Re: That's what I see

justmeMN wrote:

As for the SL1, it's...

10% narrower, 3% shorter, and weighs 18% less than the Olympus E-M1.

You might want to take another crack at it.

http://camerasize.com/compare/#289,448

Weighs 2% more with battery and card, and is 66% thicker. From what I can see, the extra width comes from the admittedly stupid strap lugs on the EM5. Don't know where you got your numbers from but they're incredibly wrong.

I don't know what people's obsession is with the SL1. It's arguably the worst and most cynical of Canon's offerings. It's a worse camera than a T3i, D5100, or K-30 for more money.

 Promit's gear list:Promit's gear list
Sony a77 II Sony Alpha a7R II Sony a99 II Sony DT 16-50mm F2.8 SSM Sony DT 35mm F1.8 SAM +7 more
Mark Thornton Veteran Member • Posts: 3,600
Re: That's what I see

technic wrote:

wrong, it DOES compete on size/weight with m43 cameras with a comparable feature set (e.g. good quality EVF) and kit zoom. Canon knows that many potential mirrorless buyers only buy the kit zoom and no extra lenses, they want a 'better quality compact'. With the SL1 you get about 50% more sensor and most of the same features for a LOT less money, compared to m43.

http://camerasize.com/compact/#448.377,472.335,ha,t

One of those will fit in my pocket ...

 Mark Thornton's gear list:Mark Thornton's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX1 Olympus E-500 Panasonic Lumix G X Vario PZ 14-42mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Olympus Zuiko Digital 11-22mm 1:2.8-3.5 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 45mm F1.8 +6 more
Nexu1 Senior Member • Posts: 2,745
Re: That's what I see

Promit wrote:

justmeMN wrote:

As for the SL1, it's...

10% narrower, 3% shorter, and weighs 18% less than the Olympus E-M1.

You might want to take another crack at it.

http://camerasize.com/compare/#289,448

Weighs 2% more with battery and card, and is 66% thicker. From what I can see, the extra width comes from the admittedly stupid strap lugs on the EM5. Don't know where you got your numbers from but they're incredibly wrong.

I don't know what people's obsession is with the SL1. It's arguably the worst and most cynical of Canon's offerings. It's a worse camera than a T3i, D5100, or K-30 for more money.

The D5100 is a strong offering so that's a tough comparison.  Same sensor and imaging chain as the D7000 (comes in dxomark at 80 which is very strong score).  If someone shops around they can find refurb right now for around <$400.  Arguably the best price to performance ratio available on any format.

Mark Thornton Veteran Member • Posts: 3,600
Re: That's what I see

Promit wrote:

sealing. The SL1 is the cheapest of the cheap for materials. The Canon's stripped for controls, too. There are two kit zoom options for the E-M5; the 14-42mm which is directly comparable to the 18-55 STM weighs less and is much smaller. The 12-50mm is the same size and weight as the STM but offers extended range (15-70 or so on 1.6x), macro, power zoom, and weather sealing. Both lenses are noticeably better made than the Canon 18-55.

Or if you are really short of space you can fit the Panasonic PZ 14-42X lens.

 Mark Thornton's gear list:Mark Thornton's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX1 Olympus E-500 Panasonic Lumix G X Vario PZ 14-42mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Olympus Zuiko Digital 11-22mm 1:2.8-3.5 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 45mm F1.8 +6 more
Eamon Hickey Veteran Member • Posts: 3,990
they know; but it's expensive
1

sderdiarian wrote:

Nikon and Panasonic both now have no-excuses products. They need to get the word out, as Nikon and Canon did in the 70's, to assert themselves in the market. But they don't seem to understand the value in this.

Of course they understand the value of marketing/advertising. But it's expensive. The question is not will a massive advertising campaign sell more cameras. It will. The question is will you get a return on your investment -- i.e. will you increase sales enough that you make more money than you spend.

And I assure you, managers at Olympus and Panasonic have a much clearer picture of the numbers on that than anybody in this forum does.

If you go to a top-line ad agency in New York and say we need to make a big improvement in our brand awareness, they'll say 'no problem; we can do that. We've got a three year initial plan; it'll cost you $250 million. Then, to maintain your gains, you'll need to spend $50 million every year after."

Now your job is to figure out how many more cameras you have to sell to pay for that. Can you do it? Do you even have the production capacity to support it? If you don't make that number, your advertising investment is just money you might as well have burned for all the good it did you.

In the history of the camera business, only Canon has done large-scale global advertising in the style of big consumer brands. They started in the 1970s, and they approached it very systematically, with a clear product roadmap to pay for it and the balls to invest in the production capacity, the distribution network, and the logistics infrastructure to support that kind of sales volume.

They bet a lot of money on it, and they won that bet. But it was really risky. Nobody else thought you could sell that many cameras.

Mark Thornton Veteran Member • Posts: 3,600
Re: Missing the mark, somewhat

technic wrote:

The DSLR mirrorbox makes it impossible to make a really compact SWA prime (relatively bulky retrofocus design required). However, the pancake (S)WA primes on mirrorless are usually not the best quality (in the corners).

Both systems have their strengths and weaknesses.

I have a Pentax-M 20mm f/4 (designed for FF) which is pretty small and light. Subsequent versions were faster at f/2.8 but much bigger and more expensive.

Mark

 Mark Thornton's gear list:Mark Thornton's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX1 Olympus E-500 Panasonic Lumix G X Vario PZ 14-42mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Olympus Zuiko Digital 11-22mm 1:2.8-3.5 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 45mm F1.8 +6 more
Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 12,600
Re: I am not really sure if they are skimming the cream either ..

rbattsall wrote:

jim stirling wrote:

rrr_hhh wrote:

Sergey_Green wrote:

Sean Nelson wrote:

justmeMN wrote:

If Olympus had been aggressive in pricing, the D7100 would have been toast this Christmas.

Oh please. Here (USA), Olympus can't even get their product on store shelves, and have virtually no advertising.

I think that getting stock into stores is the bigger half of the problem. If they price the cameras competitively then I think retailers would be a lot more inclined to stock them. But right now it seems like Panasonic and Olympus are both skimming the cream from the enthusiasts who are willing to pay a premium for their gear.

I already asked the same question somewhere else, what would you buy for the same money;
  1. the camera that is easier to carry
  2. the camera that will take better images

Many, and those who know what to do with it, take the second option. And so the stores are hardly making any profits on the first. In fact, Olympus imaging division themselves have been losing money for quite some time now, and OM-D is not helping much either.

It isn't as simple as you make it : the real question is how much more weight and bulk people will accept for the marginal IQ they would gain and that marginal IQ increase (which many people didn't really need) comes along with a huge size/weight increase (often the total gear weight is twice as heavy).

To be fair that same argument can be put forward for one camera solutions such as the RX100 which is notably closer in sensor performance to the E-M5 than the E-M5 is to the D800e {all selected for being best in each sensor size}

This is absolutely true.   I just bought an RX100M2 to serve as my "take-everywhere" camera after grudgingly admitting to myself that no M43 offerings are ever likely to be quite compact enough for me to use in that role.   The RX100M2 is also the only compact camera that has 1080p60 video and a tilting LCD screen - another must-have for me.

I'm pretty amazed by what it can do, and although I've long been planning to buy into M43, the RX100M2 has me seriously questioning whether I really need to.   If I do, it won't be because of any advantage in "image quality" (whatever that means) but rather to get more flexibility in terms of focal length and DOF control than the RX100 can offer.

kodachromeguy Contributing Member • Posts: 773
Re: That's what I see - but not Joe and Jane Suburban
1

Everything you wrote is correct.  But you are back to the technical mumbo jumbo that Joe and Jane Suburban really don't care about (except possibly for "megapixels," whatever those are).  Joe and Jane will see the new Canon at the big box store, decide it is cute, and buy it - it is an easy decision.  And it even comes with a zoom lens!  Done.

-- hide signature --

The Kodachromeguy

Robert Morris Contributing Member • Posts: 767
Re: Really? Re: Missing the mark, somewhat

He is just chiding Nikon on the lapse of DX lens support. Fortunately we have have Sigma Tokina and a few other filling in the gaps the new Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 which has no equal anywhere else, has make me and a few other I know really wanting to stay in the DX camp at least for now. Most of us have gotten a mirrorless to play with (The close out pricing was to good to resist) but the IQ and feature set we value just aren't there yet.

-- hide signature --

RM

 Robert Morris's gear list:Robert Morris's gear list
Olympus XZ-1 Panasonic FZ1000 Sony RX100 II Panasonic LX100 Nikon D90 +36 more
thorkilry
thorkilry Contributing Member • Posts: 874
Re: Really? Re: Missing the mark, somewhat

Robert Morris wrote:

He is just chiding Nikon on the lapse of DX lens support. Fortunately we have have Sigma Tokina and a few other filling in the gaps the new Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 which has no equal anywhere else, has make me and a few other I know really wanting to stay in the DX camp at least for now. Most of us have gotten a mirrorless to play with (The close out pricing was to good to resist) but the IQ and feature set we value just aren't there yet.

-- hide signature --

RM

You obviously have not tried the last generation m43, with ligthning fast AF, and 5 axis stabilisation

 thorkilry's gear list:thorkilry's gear list
Olympus C-765 UZ Olympus E-510 Olympus E-620 Olympus PEN E-PL1 Olympus OM-D E-M5 +2 more
sportyaccordy Veteran Member • Posts: 8,965
Re: Thom Hogan: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line

More AdSense garbage. A 2.8 lens on an MFT is not comparable to a 2.8 on an APS-C, PERIOD. And he is flat out wrong on other things (D600, D800, D800E, D4 is way more of a lineup than D700/D3). This guy is TROLLING.

 sportyaccordy's gear list:sportyaccordy's gear list
Sony Alpha a7 II NEX-5T Samyang AF 50mm F1.4 FE Sony FE 85mm F1.8 +1 more
MichaelKJ Veteran Member • Posts: 3,466
Re: How do you know it?
1

rrr_hhh wrote:

Sergey_Green wrote:

sderdiarian wrote:

Many were taken by surprise by how well the E-M5 sold and that it won DPR's reader's choice award. Had Olympus priced the E-M1 to match the D7100, I think they'd have another runaway success on their hands this holiday season. People do read reviews and don't have to see the cameras in a big box store to buy them, as the E-M5 proved.

Did it really sell well, or you think it sold well ?

There were long waiting lists to get one : I had preordered one in early March but only got one at the end of August inspite of the fact that in our country Olympus is better distributed than it appears to be in the US. Also Olympus managers have declared it several times : they were themselves surprised by how well the E-M1 was selling. Also here since its launching the price of the E-M5 has remained very stable, loosing less than 10% With respect to its launch price (998.- to 1022.- CHF with respect to 1089.- at launch time for body only)

http://www.toppreise.ch/chart_266303.html

-- hide signature --

rrr_hhh

Unfortunately, we know very little about how well the E-M5 has sold. The E-5 has held its price, so the fact that the E-M5 has also held its prices tells us very little.

About all we know is that despite the success of the E-M5, the Olympus official who was interviewed when the most recent fiscal year report was released earlier this year said that m43 almost broke even.  The optimistic take on this is that the E-M5 helped counteract the losses that affected the camera industry as a whole last year. The pessimistic take is that despite having released the fantastic E-M5 (and I mean that seriously), demand for that model wasn't high enough to make Oly's m43 business profitable.

Another perspective is that the best selling E-M5 configuration (body only) is 12th on Amazon's CSC list, but 1,054th on Amazon's Camera & Photo rankings. The NEX-7, which has been out as long as the E-M5, is the 8th best selling CSC (at only an 8% discount) and is 841st in Camera & Photo.

As far as mirrorless challenging DSLRs is concerned, the similarly priced and equally old D7100 is the 5th best selling DSLR and is 79th in Camera & Photo.

 MichaelKJ's gear list:MichaelKJ's gear list
Sony RX100 III Olympus PEN E-PL1 Olympus OM-D E-M5 +1 more
Promit Senior Member • Posts: 2,007
Re: Really? Re: Missing the mark, somewhat

thorkilry wrote:

Robert Morris wrote:

He is just chiding Nikon on the lapse of DX lens support. Fortunately we have have Sigma Tokina and a few other filling in the gaps the new Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 which has no equal anywhere else, has make me and a few other I know really wanting to stay in the DX camp at least for now. Most of us have gotten a mirrorless to play with (The close out pricing was to good to resist) but the IQ and feature set we value just aren't there yet.

-- hide signature --

RM

You obviously have not tried the last generation m43, with ligthning fast AF, and 5 axis stabilisation

I have, and I still have an APS-C system, specifically an SLT A77. In fact I have been moving over to the SLT more because it's just a more capable camera. It actually annoys me a bit, because I like my EM5 and would love to keep a single lens system. A77 and lenses are huge. But I do a lot of sports/action/animals shooting and the EM5 cannot keep up. I also do a lot of video and the EM5 doesn't stack up there either. (GH3 might have IF it had peaking. DOH!)

I don't know what most people shoot with their DSLRs, but I do think that most people would probably be better off with a mirrorless camera. The EM5 is faster than my A77 in many ways, but it costs more and raises too mnay "but" questions for many. But what about AFC? But what about sensor size? Etc. I need the focusing performance, I need the 2.8 zoom lenses, and I need the video. I wish I didn't but I do, and m4/3 doesn't deliver completely yet. I think they will in the next two to three years though. The EM1 is oh so close. It doesn't have the video quality and the system cost is a bit heart stopping. ($2200 vs $1500 for the A77.) But everything else is there.

 Promit's gear list:Promit's gear list
Sony a77 II Sony Alpha a7R II Sony a99 II Sony DT 16-50mm F2.8 SSM Sony DT 35mm F1.8 SAM +7 more
jim stirling
jim stirling Veteran Member • Posts: 7,356
Re: That's what I see
3

YouDidntDidYou wrote:

Amazon UK is a tiny player in online camera sales in the UK, due to strong competition from decent, competitive, informative and attractive websites that don't have a problem paying UK tax.

Mirrorless in theUK has near 30% of the interchangeable lens camera segment.

The CIPA data for the first 6 months of this year shows 74,859,433 DSLR were exported to Europe as a whole with 8,170,738 .Which means Europe wide the average market share for “all” mirrorless cameras is 10%. The CIPA data covers the entire Japanese camera makers output and is by far the most reliable and comprehensive data available. These are the real numbers and it covers every camera made in Japan. The real market share in Europe is nowhere near 30% .

The CIPA data is very comprehensive covering total production and shipments by volume and location. As well as being current. In Europe DSLR shipments for the six month period are 83.4% of what they were last year at this time mirrorless shipments are 74.3% of what they were last year. These numbers are incontestable not liking the numbers because they do not agree with your particular agenda doesn't change them.

I personally do not care if mFT is dominating the market {it clearly isn't } as long as the companies producing it are actually making products that sell well and more importantly make solid profits. So that they can continue to make great products.

Jim

 jim stirling's gear list:jim stirling's gear list
Panasonic FZ1000 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Nikon D810 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 +12 more
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads