Thom Hogan: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line

Started Sep 20, 2013 | Discussions
sderdiarian Veteran Member • Posts: 4,227
Thom Hogan: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line
1

"Olympus' E-M1 and high-performance lenses are going to start cutting further into the top of Nikon's DX line. I warned several years ago about what neglecting the DX lens line was going to do. Well, it's happened. E-M1 users have fast 24-80mm, 80-300mm equivalents, and fast 24mm, 35mm, 50mm, 90mm, and 150mm prime equivalents to choose from, and the whole m4/3 system is now properly scaled as the smallest and lightest enthusiast system with excellent performance. If Olympus had been aggressive in pricing, the D7100 would have been toast this Christmas. Even with Olympus' pricing, a lot of folk are experiencing a strong temptation to pay more for less (size and weight)."

A good read:  http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/whither-nikon.html

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Sailin' Steve

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tinternaut Veteran Member • Posts: 7,476
Re: Always been a problem with CaNikon
9

Their top end glass development tends to favour their full frame sensor cameras. Olympus and Panasonic develop lenses for one format only.

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Anderton Contributing Member • Posts: 663
Re: Thom Hogan: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line
1

sderdiarian wrote:

"Olympus' E-M1 and high-performance lenses are going to start cutting further into the top of Nikon's DX line. I warned several years ago about what neglecting the DX lens line was going to do. Well, it's happened. E-M1 users have fast 24-80mm, 80-300mm equivalents, and fast 24mm, 35mm, 50mm, 90mm, and 150mm prime equivalents to choose from, and the whole m4/3 system is now properly scaled as the smallest and lightest enthusiast system with excellent performance. If Olympus had been aggressive in pricing, the D7100 would have been toast this Christmas. Even with Olympus' pricing, a lot of folk are experiencing a strong temptation to pay more for less (size and weight)."

A good read: http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/whither-nikon.html

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Sailin' Steve

The last memorable DX format camera I can remember is the D300s. My family has two of them still and I remember they were an easy choice four years ago.

Unless it is for an existing Nikon user, I have been recommending for friends buying their DSLR for the first time Canon APS-C because the lower end Nikon DX bodies feel so cheap, the interface is undercooked, the lens are expensive and the prices are not as competitive at different price points. Canon's current low price points, especially the SL1, 600D, 60D, are a bargain.

A colleague who shoots everything with his Canon 7D has spent $10k on his gear is looking towards migrating to NEX in the next year or so when the sensor and lens line up has matured. He mentions how the 7D is a brilliant camera however lugging it around does not make sense compared to MFT.

The release of Olympus PRO line of lenses looks fantastic. The 40-150mm f/2.8 for example, will push for the new users wallet if they can get it out as soon as possible.

Anderton

wildlifr
wildlifr Senior Member • Posts: 1,516
Re: Thom Hogan: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line
6

sderdiarian wrote:

"Olympus' E-M1 and high-performance lenses are going to start cutting further into the top of Nikon's DX line. I warned several years ago about what neglecting the DX lens line was going to do. Well, it's happened. E-M1 users have fast 24-80mm, 80-300mm equivalents, and fast 24mm, 35mm, 50mm, 90mm, and 150mm prime equivalents to choose from, and the whole m4/3 system is now properly scaled as the smallest and lightest enthusiast system with excellent performance. If Olympus had been aggressive in pricing, the D7100 would have been toast this Christmas. Even with Olympus' pricing, a lot of folk are experiencing a strong temptation to pay more for less (size and weight)."

A good read: http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/whither-nikon.html

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Sailin' Steve

Just trying to be provocative. In reality, Sigma stepped up big time with dx lenses, and while they used to be known as a budget lens maker, that's not the case anymore. They make incredible quality lenses at much lower prices than Nikon. Not to mention Tokina and Tamron. Aside from that, what's recommended to dx users is to buy fx lenses so that if/when the move to FF happens, you don't have to rebuy lenses. So his major premise for why dx is in trouble is hogwash; except the part where he talks about paying more for less. And that's not at all limited to size and weight.

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duartix Veteran Member • Posts: 3,586
Re: Thom Hogan: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line
2

Anderton wrote:

A colleague who shoots everything with his Canon 7D has spent $10k on his gear is looking towards migrating to NEX in the next year or so when the sensor and lens line up has matured.

If he's looking for a mature lens system why go NEX? Does he need the extra mega pixels?

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Duarte Bruno

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rovingtim Veteran Member • Posts: 8,640
Re: Always been a problem with CaNikon

tinternaut wrote:

Olympus and Panasonic develop lenses for one format only.

uhhhh, only true because Oly just dropped 4/3rds.

Chez Wimpy
Chez Wimpy Veteran Member • Posts: 8,856
Re: Thom Hogan: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line
1

wildlifr wrote:

Aside from that, what's recommended to dx users is to buy fx lenses so that if/when the move to FF happens, you don't have to rebuy lenses.

And in the meanwhile, just pretend you are taking the pictures that you want to...

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-CW

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Advent1sam
Advent1sam Senior Member • Posts: 3,899
Re: Thom Hogan: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line

sderdiarian wrote:

"Olympus' E-M1 and high-performance lenses are going to start cutting further into the top of Nikon's DX line. I warned several years ago about what neglecting the DX lens line was going to do. Well, it's happened. E-M1 users have fast 24-80mm, 80-300mm equivalents, and fast 24mm, 35mm, 50mm, 90mm, and 150mm prime equivalents to choose from, and the whole m4/3 system is now properly scaled as the smallest and lightest enthusiast system with excellent performance. If Olympus had been aggressive in pricing, the D7100 would have been toast this Christmas. Even with Olympus' pricing, a lot of folk are experiencing a strong temptation to pay more for less (size and weight)."

A good read: http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/whither-nikon.html

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Sailin' Steve

Nikon looking sorry, all their own making unfortunately. Maybe now they'll focus on what people want, not what they want people to have! That is the big difference with Sony, they do listen, and fortunately for Olympus they had the vision to see that what Panasonic was planning was the future!

justmeMN Veteran Member • Posts: 5,119
Re: Thom Hogan: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line
4

If Olympus had been aggressive in pricing, the D7100 would have been toast this Christmas.

Oh please. Here (USA), Olympus can't even get their product on store shelves, and have virtually no advertising.

MichaelKJ Veteran Member • Posts: 3,466
Re: Thom Hogan: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line
4

justmeMN wrote:

If Olympus had been aggressive in pricing, the D7100 would have been toast this Christmas.

Oh please. Here (USA), Olympus can't even get their product on store shelves, and have virtually no advertising.

I have to agree. While I think a lower priced E-M1 would entice some enthusiasts to move from Nikon to Olympus, I can't imagine that Thom really thinks there would be a mass stampede over the next 3 months (That's the type of off the wall comment I expect from KR, but not from Thom).

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Cipher Senior Member • Posts: 2,640
Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line is NIL.
1

sderdiarian wrote:

"Olympus' E-M1 and high-performance lenses are going to start cutting further into the top of Nikon's DX line. I warned several years ago about what neglecting the DX lens line was going to do. Well, it's happened. E-M1 users have fast 24-80mm, 80-300mm equivalents, and fast 24mm, 35mm, 50mm, 90mm, and 150mm prime equivalents to choose from, and the whole m4/3 system is now properly scaled as the smallest and lightest enthusiast system with excellent performance. If Olympus had been aggressive in pricing, the D7100 would have been toast this Christmas. Even with Olympus' pricing, a lot of folk are experiencing a strong temptation to pay more for less (size and weight)."

A good read: http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/whither-nikon.html

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Sailin' Steve

The Nikon FF D600/D610 will have more of an impact than m4/3 on the top end DX bodies.  Even if Olympus priced the E-M1 the same as the D7100, people are just more comfortable buying a camera from the two big names (Canon and Nikon).  The fact that retailers don't really push m4/3 doesn't help either.

alatchin Senior Member • Posts: 1,055
But But But

Why is it when anyone here mentions the lack of DX dedicated lenses they get argument after argument... Well looks like Thom has answered that question.

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OP sderdiarian Veteran Member • Posts: 4,227
Re: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line is NIL.

Cipher wrote:

sderdiarian wrote:

"Olympus' E-M1 and high-performance lenses are going to start cutting further into the top of Nikon's DX line. I warned several years ago about what neglecting the DX lens line was going to do. Well, it's happened. E-M1 users have fast 24-80mm, 80-300mm equivalents, and fast 24mm, 35mm, 50mm, 90mm, and 150mm prime equivalents to choose from, and the whole m4/3 system is now properly scaled as the smallest and lightest enthusiast system with excellent performance. If Olympus had been aggressive in pricing, the D7100 would have been toast this Christmas. Even with Olympus' pricing, a lot of folk are experiencing a strong temptation to pay more for less (size and weight)."

A good read: http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/whither-nikon.html

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Sailin' Steve

The Nikon FF D600/D610 will have more of an impact than m4/3 on the top end DX bodies. Even if Olympus priced the E-M1 the same as the D7100, people are just more comfortable buying a camera from the two big names (Canon and Nikon). The fact that retailers don't really push m4/3 doesn't help either.

I don't think it's as bad as Thom paints it, but FF is not for everyone as it pushes gear prices up and makes for a heavy kit to lug about if one takes along multiple lenses. On the other hand, the D7100 is, however, still a fine camera for its price and Nikon has some quality, reasonably affordable lenses to compliment it.

But, I think Thom's correct on Christmas sales: the D7100 is now yesterday's news while the E-M1 is fresh and packs in a lot of features (further improved 5-axis IBIS in particular). It also appears to have closed the gap significantly on tracking, and can now fast AF with such great and affordable lenses as the 12-60mm f2.8-4 and 50-200mm f2.8-3.5. As he notes, combine the E-M1 with the fast primes and you also have the perfect small and light (only marginally larger and heavier than the E-M5) pro-build kit that you can easily take anywhere.

Many were taken by surprise by how well the E-M5 sold and that it won DPR's reader's choice award. Had Olympus priced the E-M1 to match the D7100, I think they'd have another runaway success on their hands this holiday season. People do read reviews and don't have to see the cameras in a big box store to buy them, as the E-M5 proved.

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Sailin' Steve

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MichaelKJ Veteran Member • Posts: 3,466
Re: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line is NIL.
3

sderdiarian wrote:

Cipher wrote:

sderdiarian wrote:

"Olympus' E-M1 and high-performance lenses are going to start cutting further into the top of Nikon's DX line. I warned several years ago about what neglecting the DX lens line was going to do. Well, it's happened. E-M1 users have fast 24-80mm, 80-300mm equivalents, and fast 24mm, 35mm, 50mm, 90mm, and 150mm prime equivalents to choose from, and the whole m4/3 system is now properly scaled as the smallest and lightest enthusiast system with excellent performance. If Olympus had been aggressive in pricing, the D7100 would have been toast this Christmas. Even with Olympus' pricing, a lot of folk are experiencing a strong temptation to pay more for less (size and weight)."

A good read: http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/whither-nikon.html

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Sailin' Steve

The Nikon FF D600/D610 will have more of an impact than m4/3 on the top end DX bodies. Even if Olympus priced the E-M1 the same as the D7100, people are just more comfortable buying a camera from the two big names (Canon and Nikon). The fact that retailers don't really push m4/3 doesn't help either.

I don't think it's as bad as Thom paints it, but FF is not for everyone as it pushes gear prices up and makes for a heavy kit to lug about if one takes along multiple lenses. On the other hand, the D7100 is, however, still a fine camera for its price and Nikon has some quality, reasonably affordable lenses to compliment it.

But, I think Thom's correct on Christmas sales: the D7100 is now yesterday's news while the E-M1 is fresh and packs in a lot of features (further improved 5-axis IBIS in particular). It also appears to have closed the gap significantly on tracking, and can now fast AF with such great and affordable lenses as the 12-60mm f2.8-4 and 50-200mm f2.8-3.5. As he notes, combine the E-M1 with the fast primes and you also have the perfect small and light (only marginally larger and heavier than the E-M5) pro-build kit that you can easily take anywhere.

The E-M1 is currently 194th on AmazonUS Camera & Photo best sellers list while the D7100 is 106th.

The best selling E-M5 configuration is 1,609 in Camera & Photo on Amazon.

In Japan, the best selling D7100 configuration (with the 18-200) is 21st in BCN's rankings of DSLR/ILC sales, while the best selling E-M5 configuration is 111th. It would appear that the E-M5 has become "yesterday's news" much faster in both Japan and the US than the D7100.

I realize that you can argue that things would be different if Olympus had set the price lower for the E-M1.  However, the D7100 is still a very popular camera and the notion that a camera such as the E-M1 could seriously hurt Nikon's sales in the near future are far fetched (IMO).

Many were taken by surprise by how well the E-M5 sold and that it won DPR's reader's choice award. Had Olympus priced the E-M1 to match the D7100, I think they'd have another runaway success on their hands this holiday season. People do read reviews and don't have to see the cameras in a big box store to buy them, as the E-M5 proved.

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Sailin' Steve

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YouDidntDidYou
YouDidntDidYou Senior Member • Posts: 1,576
D7100 v. E-M5 on flickr
1

They both have about 600 daily users but...E-M5 users have uploaded 250% more photos suggesting that E-M5 users are getting more out of their cameras. I'm also willing to bet that that more E-M5 users have recently purchased lenses than D7100 users.....

OP sderdiarian Veteran Member • Posts: 4,227
Re: Thom Hogan: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line

This may be a comparison Olympus and Panasonic should use in an ad campaign, if they did such things...

http://j.mp/15Ja9Fk

http://j.mp/15JaHuT

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Sailin' Steve

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onlooker Veteran Member • Posts: 3,997
Re: D7100 v. E-M5 on flickr
2

YouDidntDidYou wrote:

E-M5 users have uploaded 250% more photos suggesting that E-M5 users are getting more out of their cameras.

I think that's reaching a bit. The only direct conclusion one may draw from it is that there are more active Flickr users among E-M5 owners than D7100.

kodachromeguy Contributing Member • Posts: 768
Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line - probably not in the USA market
11

Everything Thom wrote is logical for photography enthusiasts.  But as for the mass market in USA, Joe and Jane Suburban:

1.  Know the two big names, Canon and Nikon.

2.  Seldom see 4/3 cameras in big box stores and the few they see are not emphasized by salespeople.

3.  Have a neighbor or relative who bought Nikon or Canon when he "became serious" about photography.  Joe and Jane will buy the same for social acceptability among their peer group.

4.  Do not care about all that large f-stop technical mumbo jumbo and are not interested in buying big full frame lenses - in fact will only buy the one kit lens and possibly a cheap, small aperture zoom lens.

5.  Can buy a Nikon DSLR with kit lens cheap.  That is a key factor for them.

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The Kodachromeguy

OP sderdiarian Veteran Member • Posts: 4,227
Re: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line - probably not in the USA market
1

kodachromeguy wrote:

Everything Thom wrote is logical for photography enthusiasts. But as for the mass market in USA, Joe and Jane Suburban:

1. Know the two big names, Canon and Nikon.

2. Seldom see 4/3 cameras in big box stores and the few they see are not emphasized by salespeople.

3. Have a neighbor or relative who bought Nikon or Canon when he "became serious" about photography. Joe and Jane will buy the same for social acceptability among their peer group.

4. Do not care about all that large f-stop technical mumbo jumbo and are not interested in buying big full frame lenses - in fact will only buy the one kit lens and possibly a cheap, small aperture zoom lens.

5. Can buy a Nikon DSLR with kit lens cheap. That is a key factor for them.

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The Kodachromeguy

All good points, and they've been largely accurate.

But as smartphones cull more and more Joe & Jane's from the buying pool, people only superficially interested in photography in the first place, cameras like the E-M1 will, I think, become the new paradigm for enthusiasts who mine the internet for trends in technology.

Seeing it side by side with the bulky D7100, and understanding its better build quality and, for all practical purposes, equivalent IQ, and then adding in the compact mFT primes and 5-axis IBIS, my sense is were Nikon emblazoned on its body instead of Olympus, it would be taking the market by storm.

Nikon and Panasonic both now have no-excuses products.  They need to get the word out, as Nikon and Canon did in the 70's, to assert themselves in the market.  But they don't seem to understand the value in this.

Just my sense.

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Sailin' Steve

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Sergey_Green
Sergey_Green Forum Pro • Posts: 10,354
How do you get to it ..
2

sderdiarian wrote:

This may be a comparison Olympus and Panasonic should use in an ad campaign, if they did such things...

http://j.mp/15Ja9Fk

http://j.mp/15JaHuT

The 24-70/2.8 would probably be somewhat closer focal length (angle of view) comparison (not a 32-70/2 like). Except mFT 12-35/2.8 would be equivalent to FF 24-70/5.6 (Yawn ..), and 24-70/2.8 would make a rather nice match to non-existent mFT 12-35/1.4 (Wow!). But as it is ... they neither of them compare .

How do you get it?

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- sergey

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