Thom Hogan: "Get fully behind Nikon 1 or drop it."

Started Sep 16, 2013 | Discussions
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Photo Pete Veteran Member • Posts: 3,110
Re: The price is baffling
1

I mean, compared to the competition.  It's as if they WANT to see the Nikon 1 system die.  I'm sure they don't, but the price of the V2 for example is really confusing compared to the new mirrorless systems out there with better image quality.  I have the V2 and I had the V1 in the past.   I do like the system, but like has been mentioned many times already on this forum, the prices don't make any sense.  If they need to recover their development expenses, I'm not sure what to say, but just look at the competition.   If Nikon's prices are so high because of a need to recover costs from the building of a new factory and the R&D associated with the 1 system, maybe they should find another way of doing it instead of instantly driving away potential buyers once they see the price tag.  Honestly, m4/3 has better image quality, very fast AF and less expensive bodies these days compared to the V2, for example.   I'm not bashing the V2 because I own one.  I'm just stating the obvious/truth.  I can't believe Nikon doesn't understand this and do something about the pricing.   The excellent Olympus EM5 is only $200 more with the 14-42 lens.  Really Nikon....wake up please

Oh and I do love my D600 also.  I like Nikon, but they need to get a clue when it comes to the Nikon 1 pricing.

Just curious... why did you buy a V2 if it is too expensive and the other options out there are better?

This isn't to critisize you, I own a V2 too, but I wouldn't have bought it if I had thought it didn't offer good value for what I wanted.
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Photo Pete

D200_4me Veteran Member • Posts: 3,892
Re: The price is baffling

Photo Pete wrote:

Just curious... why did you buy a V2 if it is too expensive and the other options out there are better?

This isn't to critisize you, I own a V2 too, but I wouldn't have bought it if I had thought it didn't offer good value for what I wanted.
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It was because I enjoyed the V1 a lot.  I was just saying, technically speaking, there are some other cameras that do offer more than the V1 for nearly the same cost or less.  So of course to many people, the other cameras are more appealing and they don't really consider the V2 very much....unless there's a specific reason why they want it.

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AustinB Regular Member • Posts: 380
Re: Thom Hogan: "Get fully behind Nikon 1 or drop it."

Owning an OMD for a few weeks has provided an entirely new perspective on the 1 system. While the OMD is a very nice camera, I find the usability of the 1 system even better. The AF, simplicity, and intuitive layout of the menu are excellent. The OMD menu is absurd, although other aspects of the camera are fantastic (touch screen focusing for example). There isn't as much of a gap in IQ as expected, either. And many times, I prefer the look of the 1 system for some subjective reason I can't explain.

The 1 system is the result of a lackluster effort, much indecision, bad pricing, etc. And yet, despite many unforced errors and fumbles, the company managed to produce a great ML system. If and when Nikon got serious about ML cameras, it could make serious waves. But as of now they don't get behind their own system, so my $ goes to Oly, who even with their bad menus, is pouring its heart into making great ML cameras.

Tom May Senior Member • Posts: 1,676
Re: Thom Hogan: "Get fully behind Nikon 1 or drop it."

I just want to interject that I believe that Nikon initiated the Nikon 1 series with the knowledge that it would evolve into a higher iso systems just as APS-C has, only a couple of stops behind the curve. For many photographers, the tradeoffs are acceptable. Sony's thinking appears to be similar.

What is not acceptable for existing Nikon DSLR owners is the lack of continuity in accessories, i.e., lack of CLS as an example, and lack of equivalent controls and placements on the V models. The problem today is that Nikon mis-priced the line such that there are too many V2's in inventory, so even if a V3 is the plans and mitigates some of the existing limitations, the delay will certainly cause some to abandon the 1 series, albeit a lot of us will be looking for V2 deals. This would be a good time for Nikon to send a message of future support for bodies and lenses.

With regard to the Coolpix P7800 which is quite a nice compact, it would have been much more capable with a 1" sensor, albeit it would have required much more engineering and manufacturing efforts that the current update.

Which brings up the Sony QX models. I have a preorder for the QX100, and as much as it is limited in its capabilities, it may be a disruption that will allow smartphone users to get a big bump in IQ at a fairly low cost, cutting into the market of the P7800 and G16. The point of this is that Nikon should be thinking outside the box and getting ahead of the curve.

I certainly agree with Thom on this.

Sonyshine
Sonyshine Senior Member • Posts: 8,332
Re: Real innovators don't listen to their customers!

Real innovators don't listen to their customers!

Look at Steve Jobs for example - did he listen to customers asking for the iPhone? or the iPad? or even the iPod or iTunes? No.

Because he had a vision about where technology was going.

Did Dyson ask customers if they wanted vacuum cleaners with swirl vortices ...no!

Did Henry Ford ask customers what they wanted in a Model T? Of course not!

Did Honda ask Triumph and Norton customers if they really needed a four cylinder 750 motorbike? Nah!

Great inventions never come out of customer clinics - committees only make camels.

What camera manufacturers ( Canon, Nikon etc ) are afraid to do is embrace the digital age. They are very conservative and their customer base is conservative. They are scared of cannibalising sales by being innovative. What they fail to realise is if they don't seize the opportunity their competitors surely will!

Electronics manufacturers on the other hand like Sony and Samsung are happy to innovate and test new ideas and products - what they have lacked so far is the razor sharp vision to push their ideas and products so far ahead of the competition that they annihilate them - it still might happen....after all Apple is arguably the biggest camera brand in the world....

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ragspix Contributing Member • Posts: 946
Re: Real innovators don't listen to their customers!

Sonyshine wrote:

Real innovators don't listen to their customers!

Look at Steve Jobs for example - did he listen to customers asking for the iPhone? or the iPad? or even the iPod or iTunes? No.

Because he had a vision about where technology was going.

Did Dyson ask customers if they wanted vacuum cleaners with swirl vortices ...no!

Did Henry Ford ask customers what they wanted in a Model T? Of course not!

Did Honda ask Triumph and Norton customers if they really needed a four cylinder 750 motorbike? Nah!

Great inventions never come out of customer clinics - committees only make camels.

What camera manufacturers ( Canon, Nikon etc ) are afraid to do is embrace the digital age. They are very conservative and their customer base is conservative. They are scared of cannibalising sales by being innovative. What they fail to realise is if they don't seize the opportunity their competitors surely will!

Electronics manufacturers on the other hand like Sony and Samsung are happy to innovate and test new ideas and products - what they have lacked so far is the razor sharp vision to push their ideas and products so far ahead of the competition that they annihilate them - it still might happen....after all Apple is arguably the biggest camera brand in the world....

And when they did listen, look what happened to the "New" coke... 

Rags

anthony mazzeri
anthony mazzeri Senior Member • Posts: 1,996
Re: Real innovators don't listen to their customers!

ragspix wrote:

Sonyshine wrote:

Real innovators don't listen to their customers!

Look at Steve Jobs for example - did he listen to customers asking for the iPhone? or the iPad? or even the iPod or iTunes? No.

Because he had a vision about where technology was going.

Did Dyson ask customers if they wanted vacuum cleaners with swirl vortices ...no!

Did Henry Ford ask customers what they wanted in a Model T? Of course not!

Did Honda ask Triumph and Norton customers if they really needed a four cylinder 750 motorbike? Nah!

Great inventions never come out of customer clinics - committees only make camels.

What camera manufacturers ( Canon, Nikon etc ) are afraid to do is embrace the digital age. They are very conservative and their customer base is conservative. They are scared of cannibalising sales by being innovative. What they fail to realise is if they don't seize the opportunity their competitors surely will!

Electronics manufacturers on the other hand like Sony and Samsung are happy to innovate and test new ideas and products - what they have lacked so far is the razor sharp vision to push their ideas and products so far ahead of the competition that they annihilate them - it still might happen....after all Apple is arguably the biggest camera brand in the world....

And when they did listen, look what happened to the "New" coke...

Rags

But that's not really listening to the customer at all, it's listening to market researchers with stats and numbers. It's listening to potential customers. Potential customers aren't customers.

Just like Nikon, Canon and Pentax have all three been listening to the needs of what they thought would be their potential customers instead of aiming their new mirrorless systems at their actual customers. The lukewarm reception to all three of their mirrorless systems has proved this wasn't the best course of action . Their actual customers for any new mirrorless system should have been their existing customers who already owned their other lenses, speedlights and heavy DSLRs. Only the FT-1 comes close to addressing this.

Anyway, Steve Jobs did indeed listen to the users when it came to the iPhone. From the outset he fiercely resisted independent apps as part of his vision, but eventually succumbed to the enormous pressure and so the App Store was born and they never looked back.

ragspix Contributing Member • Posts: 946
Re: Real innovators don't listen to their customers!

Fair enough...

But it's a recipe... original thinking applied to current customer needs in the hope of getting new customers & sales.

Rags

Sonyshine
Sonyshine Senior Member • Posts: 8,332
Re: Real innovators don't listen to their customers!
3

Their actual customers for any new mirrorless system should have been their existing customers who already owned their other lenses, speedlights and heavy DSLRs. Only the FT-1 comes close to addressing this....

Really? I strongly disagree.

I own a Nikon V1 and have never owned any Nikon cameras or lenses in my life before.

It's this conservative - "ooh we must hang onto our customers" thinking that is so crippling the established camera manufacturers.

If your product is good enough people will buy it regardless! - FujiX100, Sony Rx100 , Sony RX1, Sony NEX, Olympus OMD....all good cameras , all luring people over from other brands...not to mention countless mobile phones consigning cameras to dusty confines of a cupboard!

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antoineb Veteran Member • Posts: 6,339
More micro-marketing to drive traffic to this "Thom" site?!
3

Pangloss wrote:

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/whither-nikon.html

OK now, I read the whole post by Thom but this single phrase summarizes what he has to say about the Nikon 1 system. And imho he is not being 100% fair in saying this, although he has some good points.

Disagree:

  • The 1" sensors in the V1 and V2 (respectively 10MP and 14MP) perform fine both in absolute terms and when compared to the competition. Yes, I know Sony's 1" sensor in the RX100 performs better at high ISO and sports 20MP, but that's about the only sensor that we can compare the Nikon 1 sensors to, and it has the best technology that Sony can offer. And probably Aptina's next generation of 1" sensors will offer comparable performance to Somy's, so where's the beef here? What Thom is not saying is that no matter what, a 1" sensor will never perform the same as an APS-C sensor. That's a reality and if I need the high ISO performance of an APS-C or FF sensor then I am not going to use a Nikon 1 camera, I am going to use a D7100 or a D600, end of story here.
  • Nikon has innovated a lot with the Nikon 1 line up. Just as a reminder, they were the first with a working, high-performance on-chip phase detection AF system. And the FT1 adapter gives us access to a whole line-up of DX and FX lenses.
  • Judging from the native lenses released since the launch of the Nikon 1 system, quantity and quality-wise, Nikon fully stands behind it.
  • The third-gen (V3, etc) Nikon 1 camera bodies should be released in time for the Xmas season, so where is the lack of commitment or innovation here?

Agree:

  • There were clearly some bad decisions made regarding the Nikon 1 camera bodies, concerning the initial price points and the crippling of the cameras in firmware, and Nikon has not listened to users regarding these two issues. And that's a pity.
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Andrew
Novice photographer

Cannot be a coincidence that this "Thom" gets a second big thread this week to draw traffic from DPR to his site?

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coolcatdaddy Regular Member • Posts: 165
Re: Real innovators don't listen to their customers!

I own a Nikon V1 and have never owned any Nikon cameras or lenses in my life before.

ditto. never had any interest in the brand until i read steve huff's glowing report, followed by the christmas fire sale. have since become really sold on the system's strengths and potential.

antoineb Veteran Member • Posts: 6,339
Well said - and even Apple now seems to have lost the vision
2

Sonyshine wrote:

Real innovators don't listen to their customers!

Look at Steve Jobs for example - did he listen to customers asking for the iPhone? or the iPad? or even the iPod or iTunes? No.

Because he had a vision about where technology was going.

Did Dyson ask customers if they wanted vacuum cleaners with swirl vortices ...no!

Did Henry Ford ask customers what they wanted in a Model T? Of course not!

Did Honda ask Triumph and Norton customers if they really needed a four cylinder 750 motorbike? Nah!

Great inventions never come out of customer clinics - committees only make camels.

What camera manufacturers ( Canon, Nikon etc ) are afraid to do is embrace the digital age. They are very conservative and their customer base is conservative. They are scared of cannibalising sales by being innovative. What they fail to realise is if they don't seize the opportunity their competitors surely will!

Electronics manufacturers on the other hand like Sony and Samsung are happy to innovate and test new ideas and products - what they have lacked so far is the razor sharp vision to push their ideas and products so far ahead of the competition that they annihilate them - it still might happen....after all Apple is arguably the biggest camera brand in the world....

Well said.

Electronics manufacturers have no heritage or installed base which makes them freer to experiment - not that they are always too successful at it to judge by Sony's record for example

Camera manufacturers are kind of stuck.  Their traditional customer is indeed very conservative so does NOT want too many bright truly modern and visionary ideas - but at the same time if they want to grow they ALSO would need to please the more modern crowd.  And to complicate matters further, a company like Nikon has skills mostly in optics and superior image processing and superior camera ergonomics, but not on software or wifi and so on - so what are they going to do?  Especially given that they are not such a large or rich company?

Fact is, as you point out today, that the smartphone people have become, de facto, the largest camera vendors by a large margin - though you seem to be mistaken as far as market shares go:  Samsung is far ahead of Apple on this one

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JL Salvignol
JL Salvignol Senior Member • Posts: 1,538
Am I a New Nikon fanboy ?
2

The Nikon V1 is my first Nikon since the F, F2 and FM3A, which are always gorgeous and fully functional. Bought the V1 € 231 with 10mm, the best buy of the decade! I added 18.5mm since. I watch the ever elusive 32mm in Amazon.Fr, and I am tempted by a second V1 - we'll see tomorrow

What I observe is that the capabilities of V1 with good primes in terms of IQ are substantially equivalent or superior to what can be obtained with the F's, the better Nikkor lenses - 28mm, 55 Micro, 105mm - the best BW films & developers or slides films available and an excellent Coolscan. What more? As for speed, flexibility, precision of focus and exposure, there is no common measure. Really.

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JLS

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happypoppeye
happypoppeye Veteran Member • Posts: 3,883
Re: Thom Hogan: "Get fully behind Nikon 1 or drop it."

Pangloss wrote:

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/whither-nikon.html

OK now, I read the whole post by Thom but this single phrase summarizes what he has to say about the Nikon 1 system. And imho he is not being 100% fair in saying this, although he has some good points.

Disagree:

  • The 1" sensors in the V1 and V2 (respectively 10MP and 14MP) perform fine both in absolute terms and when compared to the competition. Yes, I know Sony's 1" sensor in the RX100 performs better at high ISO and sports 20MP, but that's about the only sensor that we can compare the Nikon 1 sensors to, and it has the best technology that Sony can offer. And probably Aptina's next generation of 1" sensors will offer comparable performance to Somy's, so where's the beef here? What Thom is not saying is that no matter what, a 1" sensor will never perform the same as an APS-C sensor. That's a reality and if I need the high ISO performance of an APS-C or FF sensor then I am not going to use a Nikon 1 camera, I am going to use a D7100 or a D600, end of story here.
  • Nikon has innovated a lot with the Nikon 1 line up. Just as a reminder, they were the first with a working, high-performance on-chip phase detection AF system. And the FT1 adapter gives us access to a whole line-up of DX and FX lenses.
  • Judging from the native lenses released since the launch of the Nikon 1 system, quantity and quality-wise, Nikon fully stands behind it.
  • The third-gen (V3, etc) Nikon 1 camera bodies should be released in time for the Xmas season, so where is the lack of commitment or innovation here?

Agree:

  • There were clearly some bad decisions made regarding the Nikon 1 camera bodies, concerning the initial price points and the crippling of the cameras in firmware, and Nikon has not listened to users regarding these two issues. And that's a pity.
-- hide signature --

Andrew
Novice photographer

He is right on the title statement. Nikon shot itself in the toe with the comments a few weeks back that they were scaling back on R&D ...now with the 32 1.2 being special order (at B&H - not sure if this is a NIkon thing or B&H) ...I mean, they are telling their customers they aren't really too sure about the system. Talk about lack of confidence.

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